Decent 4x4 capability

[GravelBen]

popeyewhite said:

The only time an AWD car or any car on winters is better than a large 4x4 on winters is on compacted, flat snow where it can travel a bit faster than it really should. Not the sort of snow we've had 6 times over winter 17/18 here in the Peak District. Unpredictable, drifting. anything without adequate clearance would beach itself and the 4x4 rescue boys would be laughing at you pitiable attempt at driving in serious snow conditions.

The weight difference can be quite a factor when it comes to things like stopping and going around corners on slippery stuff, and for arguments sake a Subaru Forester/Outback/XV has similar ground clearance to most 'proper 4x4' vehicles unless they've been modified.

Not all AWD cars and soft-roaders are equal though, to be fair some are quite low with on-demand AWD that waits until you've already lost traction before engaging.

[popeyewhite]

TooMany2cvs said:

I bet you don't really NEED a "proper 4x4". What are all the locals driving around in?

Land Rovers, Shoguns, Nissan L200 - all (well, it seems all) on AT winters. If you have a normal car around here during winter and it snows you stay at home. Want to get over the moors to work or get out from your farm you'll own a serious 4x4. Last few years trucks like the L200 have become popular with working folk.

[popeyewhite]

GravelBen said:

The weight difference can be quite a factor when it comes to things like stopping and going around corners on slippery stuff,

You're preaching to the converted

GravelBen said:

and for arguments sake a Subaru Forester/Outback/XV has similar ground clearance to most 'proper 4x4' vehicles unless they've been modified.

I don't think so? Landies on ATs , L200s all taller as standard, RR and Disco have off-road height. All a vital bit higher. And yes, many have been modified, especially p38s.

GravelBen said:

Not all AWD cars and soft-roaders are equal though, to be fair some are quite low with on-demand AWD that waits until you've already lost traction before engaging.

They're fine on compacted snow. Safely faster than a heavier 4x4 with a higher centre of gravity, they'll also stop better. And if we never had more than 4" of snow in the High Peak I'm sure that's what the predominant AWD/4x4 would be. However we regularly get much more than that, and a raised estate wouldn't last long regardless of tyres, the conditions here require something a bit more robust

[GravelBen]

popeyewhite said:

GravelBen said:

and for arguments sake a Subaru Forester/Outback/XV has similar ground clearance to most 'proper 4x4' vehicles unless they've been modified.

I don't think so? Landies on ATs , L200s all taller as standard, RR and Disco have off-road height. All a vital bit higher. And yes, many have been modified, especially p38s.

Outback 213mm
XV and Forester 220mm.
L200 205mm
New Hilux claims quite a bit more at 286mm, old model was 212mm
Disco claim 'obstacle clearance' at 220mm for coil sus or 284mm for air sus at its highest setting, not sure if that is the same as lowest point ground clearance?

I recently parked my Nissan Terrano beside an XV and had quite a double-take at the relative ground clearance, quite impressed by the XV. Obviously the proper 4x4s have better wheel articulation on lumpy stuff, but with that clearance and clever LSDs etc the Subarus are more capable than many people expect.

Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 17th April 04:33

[Bill]

Yep, I was genuinely impressed with my Subaru Tribeca. Not snow, but I took it up a steep, rutted rocky track near here. I checked with the farmer first who said he could get up it in his L200 and I was welcome to try but he didn't think it would happen.

I was prepared to ditch the passengers but it did it without any trouble with four adults and three kids in board. Shame it wasn't as reliable as you'd expect.

[popeyewhite]

GravelBen said:

Outback 213mm
XV and Forester 220mm.
L200 205mm
New Hilux claims quite a bit more at 286mm, old model was 212mm
Disco claim 'obstacle clearance' at 220mm for coil sus or 284mm for air sus at its highest setting, not sure if that is the same as lowest point ground clearance?

Yep, and the RR is even higher. But anyway now bung large AT/winters on them and the 4x4s have another 4" of height. Quite a few have sump guards etc. You've then have a vehicle that can negotiate 2' drifts with ease without beaching and its weight helps push through much deeper stuff.

GravelBen said:

I recently parked my Nissan Terrano beside an XV and had quite a double-take at the relative ground clearance, quite impressed by the XV. Obviously the proper 4x4s have better wheel articulation on lumpy stuff, but with that clearance and clever LSDs etc the Subarus are more capable than many people expect.

I've owned 3 Subarus (2x Imprezza, 1x Forester), very good cars. Nothing against them whatsoever. I'd take a large 4x4 every single time up here in winter though, as do all the locals.

[techguyone]

Suzuki Grand Vitara

[100SRV]

GravelBen said:

Outback 213mm
XV and Forester 220mm.
L200 205mm
New Hilux claims quite a bit more at 286mm, old model was 212mm
Disco claim 'obstacle clearance' at 220mm for coil sus or 284mm for air sus at its highest setting, not sure if that is the same as lowest point ground clearance?

Edited by GravelBen on Tuesday 17th April 04:33

The difference is that the ground clearance quoted for beam-axled vehicles such as Discovery 1/2 is the lowest under the differential housing on the axle - the rest of the ground clearance is significantly greater.

For cars such as Outback etc the ground clearance is fairly constant under the entire length so on undulating terrain it will get hung up on things like rocks, ridges etc.

This can be mitigated by careful driving but then lack of wheel travel will catch you out.

Off-road ability is a subtle mix of ground clearance, traction and axle (wheel) travel.

Outbacks and similar are really "all-road" cars rather than "off-road" cars.

[GravelBen]

Paddy_N_Murphy said:

GravelBen said:

The weight difference can be quite a factor when it comes to things like stopping and going around corners on slippery stuff, and for arguments sake a Subaru Forester/Outback/XV has similar ground clearance to most 'proper 4x4' vehicles unless they've been modified.

Thats a pretty sweeping statement on many fronts IMHO.
I used to be able to shuffle under my stock Isuzu Trooper with the ground clearance. No chance on my A6 AllRoad even on the highest suspension setting...

As for 'big can't do slippery' - I would again say with 3 troopers and 15 yrs of driving them around on AT2's - they have been faultless and never not managed to get me anywhere, or put me where I didn't want to end up due to sliding..

Who's making sweeping statements? I never said anything about Audis, just mentioned facts about some Subarus. And I never said big vehicles can't do slippery conditions, just pointed out the physics. More mass at the same speed = more momentum, which needs more friction or more time to change velocity/direction.

[GravelBen]

popeyewhite said:

GravelBen said:

Outback 213mm
XV and Forester 220mm.
L200 205mm
New Hilux claims quite a bit more at 286mm, old model was 212mm
Disco claim 'obstacle clearance' at 220mm for coil sus or 284mm for air sus at its highest setting, not sure if that is the same as lowest point ground clearance?

Yep, and the RR is even higher. But anyway now bung large AT/winters on them and the 4x4s have another 4" of height. Quite a few have sump guards etc. You've then have a vehicle that can negotiate 2' drifts with ease without beaching and its weight helps push through much deeper stuff.

Many 4x4s would need suspension mods as well to fit tyres 4" larger than standard without rubbing. But yes of course thay have the potential for much more clearance etc when modified, I was just comparing them in standard form.

Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 18th April 02:14

[GravelBen]

100SRV said:

The difference is that the ground clearance quoted for beam-axled vehicles such as Discovery 1/2 is the lowest under the differential housing on the axle - the rest of the ground clearance is significantly greater.

For cars such as Outback etc the ground clearance is fairly constant under the entire length so on undulating terrain it will get hung up on things like rocks, ridges etc.

This can be mitigated by careful driving but then lack of wheel travel will catch you out.

Off-road ability is a subtle mix of ground clearance, traction and axle (wheel) travel.

Outbacks and similar are really "all-road" cars rather than "off-road" cars.

Yes, I'm well aware of the differences and I'm not suggesting a Subaru is a good choice for serious offroading (I own a Legacy and a Terrano and spend plenty of time offroad in Hiluxes etc). Many IFS 4x4s are actually fairly low and not well articulated across the front too though, and the lowest thing under the rear of a Disco I just walked past looked to be a rather vulnerable exhaust.

We weren't talking about serious rough offroading here though, just roads with some snow on them and a flat bottomed vehicle is probably quite good in that regard (until the snow gets too deep for the nose to clear).

I live in rural southern NZ - we don't get the amount of the snow parts of Europe do, but we don't have a shortage of rugged conditions to test vehicles.

Edited by GravelBen on Wednesday 18th April 03:37

[RTB]

My in-laws live out in the sticks in the Peak District, they have a big 4x4. It turned out to be no use at all when faced with this:


The road outside their house..... The local farmer's tractor plough couldn't get through it, they had to wait 4 days for a snow blower and digger to turn up.

A 4x4 Duke with good snow tyres will do what you need it to do. My in-laws are looking to change their Nissan Patrol for a Suzuki SX4 with snow tyres.

[popeyewhite]

GravelBen said:

Many 4x4s would need suspension mods as well to fit tyres 4" larger than standard without rubbing.

Not really, most just swap to smaller alloys instead of the ridiculously large 21/20" alloys the manufacturer supplies. Further, many 4x4s can take at least a 1.5" profile increase without rubbing.

[popeyewhite]

RTB said:

My in-laws live out in the sticks in the Peak District, they have a big 4x4. It turned out to be no use at all when faced with this:
The road outside their house..... The local farmer's tractor plough couldn't get through it, they had to wait 4 days for a snow blower and digger to turn up.
A 4x4 Duke with good snow tyres will do what you need it to do. My in-laws are looking to change their Nissan Patrol for a Suzuki SX4 with snow tyres.

There have certainly been situations recently where no vehicle had a chance of getting through. Presumably the Nissan had snow tyres? I'm guessing like a number of people out in the sticks your in-laws thought ATs were adequate in snowy conditions.. As an aside often the reason ploughs don't get through isn't the depth of snow; rather on narrow, walled, country lanes there's nowhere to actually push the snow to... .

[RTB]

popeyewhite said:

There have certainly been situations recently where no vehicle had a chance of getting through. Presumably the Nissan had snow tyres? I'm guessing like a number of people out in the sticks your in-laws thought ATs were adequate in snowy conditions.. As an aside often the reason ploughs don't get through isn't the depth of snow; rather on narrow, walled, country lanes there's nowhere to actually push the snow to... .

When they moved up there they had an Astra with winter tyres which got them out onto the main road on most occasions, then they had a couple of bad snows and decided a big 4X4 was called for. They then realised that if conditions were bad enough to require something like that the best course of action was to stoke up the fire and break out the cross-word book.

The big 4x4 cost a fortune to run, is difficult to park and doesn't get them much further than a normal car in conditions they're willing to go out in.

As a compromise they're now looking at a Suzuki SX4 or maybe a Panda 4x4 for next winter. The OP would probably be alright with something similar, unless it's life and death that they get out if it snows for a day or two.

My dad tells the story of local quarry dozers being used to clear snow in 1947. When the snows melted there were miles of walls pushed over and endless snapped kerb stones.

The snow blower came past the day after that picture was taken, we watched it go through, a remarkable bit of kit. Maybe the OP should buy one of them

[Watchman]

popeyewhite said:

GravelBen said:

Many 4x4s would need suspension mods as well to fit tyres 4" larger than standard without rubbing.

Not really, most just swap to smaller alloys instead of the ridiculously large 21/20" alloys the manufacturer supplies. Further, many 4x4s can take at least a 1.5" profile increase without rubbing.

You don’t get the additional ground clearance claimed above if you reduce the wheel diameter.

[popeyewhite]

Watchman said:

popeyewhite said:

GravelBen said:

Many 4x4s would need suspension mods as well to fit tyres 4" larger than standard without rubbing.

Not really, most just swap to smaller alloys instead of the ridiculously large 21/20" alloys the manufacturer supplies. Further, many 4x4s can take at least a 1.5" profile increase without rubbing.

You don’t get the additional ground clearance claimed above if you reduce the wheel diameter.

Yes, I was just addressing the 'tyres won't fit' comment. Anyway quite often people who go down a couple of rim sizes lose say..an inch or two and fit much bigger tyres and a lift. On the samer rims Grand Cherokees can go about 2" taller tyres, D3/4 about 2.5. Even then you don't need a lift kit and can reprogram the air suspension for another 2/3" lift. Beyond that Johnson rods do the job nicely.

[popeyewhite]

RTB said:

The big 4x4 cost a fortune to run, is difficult to park and doesn't get them much further than a normal car in conditions they're willing to go out in.

Good points.

[bakerstreet]

popeyewhite said:

Not really, most just swap to smaller alloys instead of the ridiculously large 21/20" alloys the manufacturer supplies. Further, many 4x4s can take at least a 1.5" profile increase without rubbing.

You won't be fitting 4in bigger tyres to a D1, D2 or D3 without mods to the suspension, At least that is how I understand it.

[popeyewhite]

bakerstreet said:

You won't be fitting 4in bigger tyres to a D1, D2 or D3 without mods to the suspension, At least that is how I understand it.

I think I said up to 2.5" on the Ds without suspension mods? Beyond that go smaller rims, then smaller rims and lift.