AT vs Winter tyres as an all-rounder?

AT vs Winter tyres as an all-rounder?

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C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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Bill said:
C70R said:
East Anglia has pretty mild winter months.
I'd ignore winters as an option purely because of the potential for sourcing hassle and expense. There are loads of less off road biased tyres that are M+S rated (FWIW, AIUI it just means a greater percentage of the tyre is gap rather than tread...) that will be less of a compromise than a winter or full AT tyre.
Thanks. Are you referring to 'all-season' tyres?

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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InitialDave said:
Presumably whatever you buy will come with fairly mild road tyres.

So why not give it a drive in the kind of terrain you'll be crossing when you get it.

If it copes fine, clearly an all-round road tyre is ok for your needs.

If it's a bit dicey, you can justify stepping up to something a little more aggressive.
At this end of the car buying spectrum, my expectations are low. I'll probably end up with a mishmash of budget road tyres.

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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C70R said:
I get the idea of running two sets, but I'm not going to plan in advance to have a 'day' where I need to drive across a muddy field - it will just happen. I need one set to do everything, so I need an idea of how much of a compromise I'm making of winter vs AT.

I don't really need winters from the perspective of snow and ice driving - East Anglia has pretty mild winter months. I was just wondering if the slightly less aggressive tread pattern would make a better day-to-day compromise for the odd occasion I need to drive off-road.
If you don’t experience ice or snow, you will not need a winter tyre with fine sipes for ice grip. It sound like you need an open, diagonal tread with large blocks of rubber. Have a look around on here
https://www.4x4at.com/wheels-tyres/tyre-tread-patt...

Bill

52,476 posts

254 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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C70R said:
Bill said:
C70R said:
East Anglia has pretty mild winter months.
I'd ignore winters as an option purely because of the potential for sourcing hassle and expense. There are loads of less off road biased tyres that are M+S rated (FWIW, AIUI it just means a greater percentage of the tyre is gap rather than tread...) that will be less of a compromise than a winter or full AT tyre.
Thanks. Are you referring to 'all-season' tyres?
No, all terrain. Chunky off road tyres. All season tyres tend to be like winters with an all year bias. In tests though they seem to perform very similarly so I'm not convinced they're not just a marketing exercise (With a few notable exceptions like the CrossClimate).

FWIW my use is similar to yours and the Scorpion Zeros I have (chosen as much because they're popular choice for the D4) are fine. However I haven't used them much off road apart from a bit of mud and there hasn't been any snow...

camel_landy

4,863 posts

182 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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IMO - It sounds like you're more looking at the split between highway driving vs town & occasional field. Whatever you choose, I'd suggest avoiding anything wide, as narrow gives a better 'bite' in a softer surface. (eg On a RaRo, Pirelli Scorpions 275s are hopeless but 255s are surprisingly capable, even in soft stuff.)

I'd also suggest that a bit of training & practice will help too, as that'll help balance out compromises you're making in the tyre department (momentum is your friend wink ).

M

InitialDave

11,854 posts

118 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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C70R said:
At this end of the car buying spectrum, my expectations are low. I'll probably end up with a mishmash of budget road tyres.
I fully expect so.

But that will still show you whether normal road tyres are sufficient for the level of "off road" you're dealing with so you can purchase appropriate replacements.

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
camel_landy said:
IMO - It sounds like you're more looking at the split between highway driving vs town & occasional field. Whatever you choose, I'd suggest avoiding anything wide, as narrow gives a better 'bite' in a softer surface. (eg On a RaRo, Pirelli Scorpions 275s are hopeless but 255s are surprisingly capable, even in soft stuff.)

I'd also suggest that a bit of training & practice will help too, as that'll help balance out compromises you're making in the tyre department (momentum is your friend wink ).

M
This is going to be very much a car about comfort.

I'll be fitting the smallest wheels I can get away with, and have no desire for steamroller tyre sizes!

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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camel_landy said:
I'd also suggest that a bit of training & practice will help too, as that'll help balance out compromises you're making in the tyre department (momentum is your friend wink ).

M
A good suggestion. An off-road course would be fun, useful, and a chance to compare and talk to the presenters and participants about tyre choices.

Ranger 6

7,042 posts

248 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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C70R said:
This is going to be very much a car about comfort.

I'll be fitting the smallest wheels I can get away with, and have no desire for steamroller tyre sizes!
As long as you understand the compromise direction - i.e. if you fit ATs to an X5/Touareg, your wet tarmac experience will be crap, but your muddy field will be fine and vice versa.

I'm a complete nerd and run summer/winter/AT on the X3, because I can plan for when I need an AT (safety car on gravel rallies). I made the mistake once of leaving them on for a tarmac rally and the A road journey to the event in the p*ssing range was hideous. I've gone from ATs to MTs on the Land Rover because of how I use it, and wet tarmac becomes hilarious with MTs in a V8 90 laugh

Bannock

4,462 posts

29 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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SlimJim16v said:
Winter tyres aren't an all-rounder, you're thinking of all seasons. M+S is used to describe a tyre with a slightly off-road tread pattern.

Most all-seasons will be pretty useless off-road, so I would go for an AT that is 3PMS snow rated. You can look at the tread pattern and choose how much you want it biased to road or off-road. They're not too noisy or compromised on the road either.
I think you mean all season tyres with 3MPSF marking - it stands for 3 Mountain Peak Snowflake. This is the marking required for tyres to be legal in Alpine countries in specified areas during snowy conditions. They work very well on snow and ice but I've no idea if they're good in mud or off road generally. I have had such all seasons on 2 of my three cars this winter, but I live in the Thames Valley and winter didn't really happen here this year so they haven't been properly challenged in a winter yet.

Bill

52,476 posts

254 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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Think he does mean AT. Some all terrain tyres qualify as winter tyres.

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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So:
All terrain, if you will regularly go on grass or (specifically) mud. This will be the typical farmer’s Isuzu pick-up choice of tyre. However, they will be adequate rather than brilliant on the road.
All season, if you may encounter some ice/snow. They will be a good compromise, but don’t expect miracles on grass/mud.
Swapping winter/summer tyres over does not seem what you want in your location.

Time for some research on tractor websites, maybe !

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
So, I feel like we've had a bit of scope creep here.

I'm not going to be "regularly" driving on mud. It's probably going to make up less than 2% of the total miles covered in this car.

I just want a set of tyres that aren't going to be next to useless when I get there, and aren't going to make the 98% of non-mud miles a misery.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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You're facing the same problem I have largely. When the Land Rover proper became a candidate for a proper sorting, more than a rolling restoration I bought a Freelander 2. It's now 12 years old and pushing 140k miles. Most of my daily miles are in that.

When I got it was not long after a couple of winters where we had suffered a fair bit of snow and even parts had been cut off for a while. Didn't want to go down the route of two sets summer/winter and swapping. So for most of those years I've been running all seasons (Nokians) which have a decided winter bias. Been quite happy with them though the last set have exhibited some minor cracking between the tread blocks much too soon imo.

Sorry for wittering, getting to the point. The use is % wise mostly on tarmac, but also go off metalled roads 5/6 days a week. Nothing drastic, farm or forest tracks, occasionally moorland, but definitely not mud plugging beloved of blokes with beards and muddy wellies. But I know that when you get onto even shallow wet mud, or grass, the effectiveness drops markedly. Which I take to be that they fill up and don't self clear like they do in snow. Their snow grip on both drive and braking is excellent, tarmac wet and dry is fine.

Wind into the equation that winters recently by us have been almost snow and ice free then the current set will be replaced with something like General Grabber AT3, which are slightly knobbly a/t but also 3PMS snowflake marked so meet the criteria for where winter tyre use required. When tried they've coped with mud far better. But not done sufficient miles yet but reckon they're a good bet.

Will they bugger up the tarmac driving experience, I reckon probably not as I don't fling it round the lanes on the door handles. Usually because I've got the dog in the back and like me he doesn't want to see his breakfast for a second time, so mostly I just chunter along reasonably smoothly and steadily, at least what I consider to be steadily. Having said that the state of UK driving these days even taking it steady it's usually me that's being held up by dawdlers rather than the other way round.

TL:DR decent but not extremely knobbly all terrain with 3PMS rating is way to go.

Bill

52,476 posts

254 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
ATs like BFG ATs or GG AT2s won't make life miserable unless you take a road biased SUV and want to push on in the wet. They're a bit noisier and use a bit more fuel but they're fine. However the only "oh st" moments I've had (since I grew up and stopped driving like a knob anyway! hehe) have been braking in the wet on ATs.


camel_landy

4,863 posts

182 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
C70R said:
So, I feel like we've had a bit of scope creep here.

I'm not going to be "regularly" driving on mud. It's probably going to make up less than 2% of the total miles covered in this car.

I just want a set of tyres that aren't going to be next to useless when I get there, and aren't going to make the 98% of non-mud miles a misery.
Don't over think it.

General Grabber AT / Pirelli Scorpions...

...and a bit of training, so when you're on the 2%, you'll know what to do, how to pick a suitable line but more importantly: You can make an informed choice.

M

Pica-Pica

13,621 posts

83 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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Rock up to a county show and check the tyres on the various vehicles there in the show ground.

C70R

Original Poster:

17,596 posts

103 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
Bill said:
However the only "oh st" moments I've had (since I grew up and stopped driving like a knob anyway! hehe) have been braking in the wet on ATs.
You see, this is the kind of compromise that doesn't seem worth it to me for the sake of >2% of driving.

WoolyFox

69 posts

62 months

Friday 13th May 2022
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When I was driving P38 Range Rover in the UK, I fitted BFG Urban Terrains as a good compromise for slippery and muddy tarmac and occasionally grass and gravel tracks. Hard to find (got mine through Camskill) but their road behaviour was excellent. Not too much road roar on the M25 concrete section and far safer than the dry rotted tyres I drove it home on when collecting it.

As always, buy tyres/vehicle for the majority of it's use, not just the edge cases you may have to do.

FiF

43,960 posts

250 months

Friday 13th May 2022
quotequote all
C70R said:
Bill said:
However the only "oh st" moments I've had (since I grew up and stopped driving like a knob anyway! hehe) have been braking in the wet on ATs.
You see, this is the kind of compromise that doesn't seem worth it to me for the sake of >2% of driving.
Equally on a narrow lane, meet oncoming traffic, put two wheels up on the grass verge and with winters / all season the ABS on that side triggers very easily. Which tells you something.