Road rallies - navigator needed and is a Boxster suitable?

[thegoose]

I haven't done a road rally for over 20 years (when I campaigned a Manta GT/E, standard except for cage & spotlights etc) but fancy getting back into them again after 10 years of circuit racing.

So, unless there have been dramatic changes in the interim, I would imagine that the most important thing for a decent result is a good navigator, which I don't have. I also don't have an ideal car - the closest is a Mk4 Golf GT TDi 130 (chipped to circa 160bhp) but this has been lowered and whilst whatever has been done works really well for road use (it drives great, including around Donington and Oulton), it will be too low for rough roads (I have to be careful of the front bumper skirt when parking front on to a kerb). On balance, I'd rather source a suitable car for the job than butcher a decent road car.

So, whilst I'm more keen to just get out there and compete in something/anything sooner rather than later, the thought also occurred that an early, cheap Boxster could be made into quite a suitable car. I don't know what engine capacity/power limits there are for most rallies these days, so I would appreciate it if anyone could let me know whether a 2.5 24valve 6 cylinder 201bhp NA engine is likely to be admissable?

So, any North West based navigators please get in touch , and any advice re. a car is welcome. For now, I'm thinking any old hot hatch would do, or a ready-prep'd previously-rallied car of some kind, with the Boxster as a future possibility (if it's allowed).

[benjj]

I'd suggest having look for a 1981 or earlier Porsche 924.

Ok ish ground clearance, RWD for big skids, decent ish power/weight. Plus, if you do go '81 or earlier you can use it for Class 3 historic rallying.

They're also used quite regularly on the continent, have good parts availability, are easy to spanner on yourself and also look quite cool. Also, unlike the Boxter, they're in their ascendancy price wise. They'll never be huge cash I don't think but if you get a decent car and look after it you're unlikely to lose much if any money on it.

See how they go here with this onboard from the 2013 Monte Historique - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHVl4p0jiE

[velocemitch]

Could write for hours on this, but to keep it brief, most events in the north west run on a road rally permit, this doesn't permit either the Golf or the Boxter. No Turbo, maximum 4 cylinder.

I'm CoC on the Colman Tyres at the end of August, starting in Otley, why not pop down for a look at what's happening. You will find that despite us opening up the entry to other cars by using a Navigation permit our field will be dominated by Proton's. ..... yup Proton's. I'd be surprised if anything else wins.

You might be surprised to find the suspension from a Mitsubishi Evo bolts straight on to the chassis of a Proton Satria!.

[velocemitch]

Also to add, yes you are dead right a good navigator is key and they are in short supply. Best bet with that unless you can bring a new face into the sport is to put yourself about, both physically at the clubs and events (marshalling perhaps?) and virtually on social media such as the British rally forum and various Facebook groups. Black sheep racing and rally log in and natter are good. Daniel pidgeons British road rallying website and FB page is probably the best place on the net for road rallying.

[anonymous-user]

Having done a few road rallies as navigator and also been a pssenger in a Boxster, I can honestly say a Boxster would be quite awful. As a nav you want good visibility to the front and sides and space for a few things like torch, map board etc. It might sound like a few small items but you dont want them rolling around hte footwell and from memory, the boxster seating position is fairly low and strtetched out which would make trying to read signs at night, in the dark, using only a torch, on narrow country lanes pretty much impossible. if you then have to get your Don Barrow Romer out to do some plotting on the fly....

Power is irrelevant really, if its a proper 12 car you will be subject to timing controls. You would be better looking for a 106 GTI or a Clio 172/182. Something fast and nippy, small, upright position, a little more ground clearance and a little more roomy for maps etc...

[thegoose]

I am looking at doing overnight road rallies, not scatters or 12-car events, so as I remember it, the navigator doesn't have to look up much. I appreciate your point about being a lower, straight leg seating position, but it's easy to fit a footrest. I suppose I should say why I thought the car would be suitable - it's RWD, the flat-6 engine is flexible, they handle well and the brakes are very good. They can also be bought for not much money - probably £2000-£3000 for a scruffy one, which is what I'd be after. As a comparison, the much-more-desirable Boxster S (3.2 engine) that I raced for 2 years started out as a very tidy, but slightly tired, road car for £4000 off eBay.

Anyway, looks like I'll have to park that idea if it has to be 4 cylinder, but on that note, are multi-valve engines OK these days? Hard to find suitable cars at a sensible price with fewer than 16 valves I would have thought. I guess if a Proton is the weapon of choice then it'd be worth considering one - I can only find one on eBay, none on PH and an automatic one on autotrader! A Honda S2000 might be good left-field choice (I saw a 1-owner one for under £2000 yesterday) and is still RWD. 924's don't really do it for me, I'm afraid, though I have had great fun racing a 944S2 (well, apart from this happening), maybe if I tried one I might change my mind, but I'm leaning towards something more modern. I can see I'll end up trawling eBay for a ropey old 306 GTi-6 or similar, but it's always such a pain traipsing round to see if cars like that have been accurately described.

I think the advice of going to an event is probably a good idea, and thanks for the tips about where to look for a navigator. Can you also tell me what licence I need (I currently have National A Race and ARDS C Instructor licences)?

[velocemitch]

Minimum Licence requirement for Nat B road rallies is Non Race national B. I'd expect you wouldn't have any problems with your licence, but best check the blue book, dafter things have been known to be written into it.
Multi valve engines are OK, as long as the Fuel injection system is standard to the Engine. What is still banned as a legacy of 1987 are twin cam engines without fuel injection or those running on Twin carbs with double chokes. (Ie the limit is two chokes total).

The thing you need to bear in mind on modern road (and navigational) rallies is that the 'whites' form a major part of the competition, they may not be a large part of the mileage, but even five out of 100 miles of whites will affect your results if you aren't fast down them. The reason the Proton's have taken hold so firmly in English Road Rallying (less so Welsh) is that they are very quick on the Rough stuff, the suspension often with Evo parts is very strong and has good travel, the shell is stiff and strong and there are lots of fairly cheap good quality parts about.

In Wales the Mk2 Escorts still have a major following, with Golfs and BMW's (the old 3 series compact is ideal) well supported too. Welsh events have a different flavour to the Northern English ones, fewer truly fast roads, but a lot more nadgery tight stuff often around farmards etc, this helps the RWD boys.

Aside from the Proton's, good options for English events are, and thinking of the more modern cars;
Honda Civic Type R
Clio 172/182
Fiesta ST (previous shape)

My modern rallying is done in a Clio 172, it's excellent on tar, but we loose out all the time on the Whites, don't have the suspension travel and are more limited in terms of Tyres as we can't fit Knobblies under the arches very well.

I'd not spend money on something like an S2000, fine Car though it is you would honestly be better off with any of the above.

[velocemitch]

Another possibility is that hardy perennial the Pug 205.

http://www.britishrally.co.uk/classifieds_view.php...

Or

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/road-rally-car-/25204379...

Still fairly competitive and a hoot to drive, just watch the back end doesn't jump off the road. Shells can be a Rusty now too.

[andy97]

K

benjj said:

I'd suggest having look for a 1981 or earlier Porsche 924.

Ok ish ground clearance, RWD for big skids, decent ish power/weight. Plus, if you do go '81 or earlier you can use it for Class 3 historic rallying.

They're also used quite regularly on the continent, have good parts availability, are easy to spanner on yourself and also look quite cool. Also, unlike the Boxter, they're in their ascendancy price wise. They'll never be huge cash I don't think but if you get a decent car and look after it you're unlikely to lose much if any money on it.

See how they go here with this onboard from the 2013 Monte Historique - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JQHVl4p0jiE

I must admit to being a very late and reluctant fan of the 924, but since I have raced my 924S I have come to realise what great cars they are. They handle fantastically well - the best handling car I have ever driven , are cheap to buy, plenty of spares around and they must represent the cheapest way in to pre 1981 events possible.

I was even wondering whether, depending on how it was prepared, whether a 924 could be used as a great cross over car on navigation rallies and HRCR events/ tours, HSCC 70s Roadsports races and something like the Tour Britannia. Wouldn't trouble the winners on TB but elsewhere it might be a class competitive underdog and would cost small change compared to an Escort, whilst handling better!

Did I mention that they handle well?!

[thegoose]

So, how does this look?
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Proton-Satria-GTi-Road-R...

From a safety perspective I think I'd want to change the seats to proper competition ones and probably get the cage welded in. I only used normal seats in my Manta but I'm more aware of safety now I'm older (see the link in my previous post for the video of my bad crash - the car was very well built and held up brilliantly, I'm pretty certain I wouldn't be alive now if it was a road car, whereas at the time I was just a bit sore for a few days, well apart from the shard of glass that came out of my elbow a few weeks later ).

Other than that, thoughts on car/price please?

[velocemitch]

Well it's got all the right bits, as you say a set of seats would be good for peice of mind.

Hard to say cost wise if I'm honest, better vale in terms of competitiveness than the two peugeots I suggested. Heck of a trek though. Wonder which events it's done and if it's known around the northern scene, it's possible it was prepared up here. The whole Proton thing started in Yorkshire.

I will drop a link on to the FB sites if you like and ask for comments, unless you'd rather I didn't in case it gets snapped up.

Just need a navigator and you could get an entry in on the Colman Tyres.....

[thegoose]

You doing a good job of getting me fired up for doing that event now! I had been hoping to race in the Oulton Park Gold Cup that weekend but the car I was going to borrow isn't eligible for any of the classes. If you think the car's that desirable then please don't share it just yet. I'm not all that motivated to travel down there myself (my tow car is a V8 Cayenne which would be costly too!). I'm guessing I could get it transported by trailer for under £200 (I often get movement quotes as I'm a car dealer), but then it's the question of dare I pay for it without me or anyone I trust having seen it?

Any help you can offer for finding me a navigator would be much appreciated . I had some decent results back in 1993/4 (I doubt I can find my results online but I profited from being a Novice and a Junior in various ANWCC championships (autotests, speed events and road rallies) which netted me a few pots, I'd have to dig them out to see what they were though) and whilst I noticed a 6/7 years ago when I navigated for an ex-girlfriend on a Scatter that she was slightly better at reading some twisty dry-stone wall lined roads at night than me (there were a few times when I'd have braked, or been about to, but she was confident enough not to), I don't think I'd be a let down to an experienced navigator.

[velocemitch]

Appreciate the dilemma with the Proton, heck of distance to travel. Might be worth a call to the owner to get a feel for how honest he is. I could make discreet enquiries about the value with a guy who has a similar spec GTi too.

I will keep my ears to the ground for you on the Navigator front. Though like I said earlier it's often a sticking point with people. If you can't put some thing together for the Colman, we genuinely would appreciate some more marshals and it would be a good way of seeing what the modern format is like.

[velocemitch]

Ok the Proton has been for sale a while, it was advertised at £3800.00 but that's too much.
Basically, anything less than 2k is a bargain, 2.5k good price, 3k top endish.

The seats might have a value as they are pretty good, but quite heavy.

As ever with these things if you were start with a basic car and build one to that spec it would cost a lot more, up to 4k plus time.

The Yoko ao35's are a great tyre but they aren't e-marked so not useable on welsh events, if that rule spreads they won't be useable at all. It's a source of a lot of angst!.

[dai1983]

Following this topic with interest. Recently bought 2 Ford Pumas for £270 total. Both need similar suspension jobs doing but one needs a clutch, heater control valve and some welding to the chassis.

Have been thinking about prepping one for targa rallies as they do appeal to me. Not sure on the road rallies though as they are held in the early hours with other road users. Melamine someone else may give me a true opinion of what they are about? I've been told that endurance rallying is dying and better off keeping the cars 1.7 engines. Stage is way too expensive!

The Puma itself has a decent engine but admittedly costs to tune past 150bhp and has good handling. They are cheap as chips too but require a fair bit of rust repair to the rear. I'm trying to find the Puma s1400 build manual to see what shell prep I would do. The suspension has longish travel and they are simple to work on.

There's a fair few 205s out there ready to go and I guess wouldn't lose you money on resale. MG Rover 25 based cars seem a good road rally car and the 924 idea has for me considering something else.

Road rally regs would also allow you to do hill climbs and sprints too.

Admittedly I'm a pain in the arse and change my mind about my toys monthly. Last month a wanted to road rally but this month I've been looking at building a locost/MNR among other kit cars! Need to sell my motorbike before I take the plunge on anything

[velocemitch]

Not much wrong with a Puma, seen a few around, but never with a top crew that I can recall, so not getting the results the car is probably capable of.
The Various form of MG, Rover 25 etc are also a good solid car, they can and do win in the right hands.

Endurance Rallying is looking a bit sick now, the championship is not running next year, it might come back, I don't know, don't think anybody does. It's a shame as it was a good concept, but geographically too far south for me and they diluted the navigational element such that it was practically none existent at times.

Targa has been born out of the type of event I first started with, that is daylight historics, based on tests more than road regularities, it has a lot of potential but the MSA need to steer it properly, if they allow it to develop along the lines that those Historic events I mentioned had started to go down it will be brilliant, but if they reign it back and slow it down, it might wither away again.

As for the point about night road rallying being on public roads, all I can say is it's been going on for decades, and for almost as long those same points have been brought up. Providing the individuals involved are responsible people, understand the situation and the risks to themselves and to others and then act accordingly, it's viable. It's still probably the cheapest way to get into serious competitive motor sport. It's also pretty unique nothing else like it outside the British isles.

[andy97]

What about a 924 for the pre 1981 class of this:
http://www.historicroadrally.co.uk

Or a 944 for the pre 1986 class?

What sort of prep would be required?

[velocemitch]

Both would fine, I think that's why Benjj favours the Porsche idea, it could work for both modern events and for Historics like the HRCR also NESCRO and HERO events.
Prep would be fundamentally the same, just safety equipment (not mandatory, but sensible) sump guard, decent Tyres, knobblies if allowed, snow tyres if they aren't. You can't cover it in stickers and paint stripes on it though, still have to be a single body colour or a manufacturers standard colour combo if it was supplied like that.
A proper trip meter(brantz or romertimer) is essential for historic as at least half of the competition element is done on very accurate regularity timing.
Historic rallying tends to be more expensive, entry fees for NESCRO and HRCR are about £130.00 as appose to about 75.00 for modern road rallies. HERO stuff is eye watering... .

[dai1983]

The front engined Porsche idea has got me thinking. I've always fancied one and they have the added bonuses of being cheap on insurance and RWD! Pity the 924S was built in 86!

I think that by the time I buy a decent example I could have spent the funds on being almost there with one of these Pumas! The 2.5 Porsches also have the extra expense and fuss of their expensive cam belt kits and awkward clutch change.

With regards to roll cages: is it ok going for a 6 point cage over a multipoint? In the case of the Puma the price difference would buy a set of Ford Racing Ka suspension that fits or a set of uprated engine mounts etc.

The historic events are more expensive but look similar to Targas and still cheaper than £300+ stage rallies!

[velocemitch]

Cages are not mandatory on any road events, so it's entirely down to personal decisions. 6 point bolted in is fine.
I expect if a cage is fitted and it is clearly rubbish a scrutineer might comment but he can only do that, he can't prevent you using it.
I've seen and competed in lots of cars with cages that don't strictly comply with the latest rules. After all you can bring a car straight out of showroom and compete if you want.