Clio 172/182 as a competition car?

Clio 172/182 as a competition car?

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confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Monday 16th October 2017
quotequote all
Hi guys,

At the moment I'm looking to start competing in my own car, during the summer gone by I double drove in my fathers historic Cooper S he and I built together and competed in the Irish hillcimb championship. Given the cars age, monetary and sentimental value, the mini might not be used as often during the coming years.

With this in mind I'm looking at getting something for myself and originally though 106/saxo but there doesn't seem to be any good ones about! However the Clios interested me quite a bit so basically I'm looking for any information anyone might have on them with regards to competing? Are they costly to run? Hard to drive? Unreliable? Uncompetitive? There are hardly any used in competition over here in Ireland so I know next to nothing about them! The fact they're 2 litre worries me slightly as they would, in my uninformed view, come up against more powerful 2 litre cars like redtop escorts or civics? How do they fare against other 2 litre cars? The car would be used for hillclimbing, sprints, trackdays and maybe the odd rally!

If you can think of any other cars I may have missed out on feel free to tell me!

And mods please move if in the wrong place!

300bhp/ton

41,030 posts

189 months

Monday 16th October 2017
quotequote all
I’m not in Ireland and I don’t have a Clio. So this is just opinion smile

But I think it depends on a lot of factors. Reliability and cost to run will vary. Depends how stock or not you keep any car and how hard your drive it.

As for being competitive. Sadly it’s more complex than that. Talent and budget will dictate this more so than car choice. And there will always be someone willing to pump more money in.

I’m assuming you know the regs you want to compete with? And what the competition are using?

Personally while competing itself is fun. Part of me says I’d rather compete in a more ‘fun’ Vehcile. Even if it’s maybe not the ultimate. To that extent I’d probably look for rwd vehciles. Be it mid engine like a MR2 mk3 or maybe an RX-8.

stevieturbo

17,229 posts

246 months

Monday 16th October 2017
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Will it be competitive ?

You decide...you can see what you're competing against !

But they do seem to be a good budget option and good performers.

velocemitch

3,795 posts

219 months

Tuesday 17th October 2017
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One observation I have in club motorsports is that the cars which are competitive in your chosen discipline tend to be popular. It’s stating the obvious really, but it also means there is lots of shared knowledge. Mk2Escorts for instance are still very popular and everybody knows how to get the best from them, in my area Proton Satrias are popular for the same reason. Clio’s less so, we use one for Road Rallying, it’s a great Car, but not as competitive as a Mk2 or a Proton. There simply isn’t enough experience within the sport, or the parts supply to make it so. It will take a lot of time and money (which don’t have) to make it so.
It’s sometimes good to be different, but also some times easier to follow the herd and gain from the shared knowledge.

andye30m3

3,451 posts

253 months

Tuesday 17th October 2017
quotequote all
I used to sprint in the up to 2.0l class.

The Clio 172's and 182's can be reasonably competitive as they are light compared to most hot hatches.

I used a Clio 172 followed by a DC2 integra and then a Honda S2000. Both the Honda's were quicker but not by lots. On a twisty circuit a well driven MX5 was also competitive.

I've owned 3 Renaultsport clios and they seam pretty reliable in the engine department, just make sure the belts are serviced on time.

There's a race series in the UK for the 182's and plenty of aftermarket performance upgrades.

Edited by andye30m3 on Tuesday 17th October 12:20

Thurbs

2,780 posts

221 months

Tuesday 17th October 2017
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I have raced in the 750mc Clio 182 Championship and in the CSCC Tin Tops for 2 years. Here are some of my thoughts.

Pros
- Cheap to buy
- Cheap to fix
- Parts are cheap (wheels, tyres etc)
- Are reasonably quick out the box with only suspension & wheels needed to go racing
- Don’t bother upgrading brakes, just put CL pads in
- Eligible for lots of series including the single make (182 only)
- Rear very stable
- Brakes very good and stable even with ABS
- Great in the wet

Cons
- Lots of understeer (beam setup on rear)
- Standard engine is already near the top of what is possible, max power with lots of mods 240-250bhp, standard Civics will still breeze past
- Standard valves weak, as are clutches

Here some videos racing against other cars:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=71075NEXpNA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4maOOeznxQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9J3JO6-Qgg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y9KcRf1zcL8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICQ2DkAOyJ4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0txHElMR66k
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oxnIFFTx2hw

Full Playlist:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2TeoaEFUs

Happy to answer more questions if you have anything specific…

Galveston

708 posts

198 months

Tuesday 17th October 2017
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300bhp/ton said:
Personally while competing itself is fun. Part of me says I’d rather compete in a more ‘fun’ Vehcile. Even if it’s maybe not the ultimate. To that extent I’d probably look for rwd vehciles. Be it mid engine like a MR2 mk3 or maybe an RX-8.
I have a completely standard 172 Cup - it's way more fun than the couple of RX-8s I've driven which both left me disappointed. Fun is subjective and while the Clio may not have the precision or ultimate balance of a RX-8 it's way more chuckable, it's very adjustable on the limit, and just a damn good little drivers' car that begs to be driven hard.

To answer the OP's question, I've just done a season of hillclimbing and sprinting in my Cup, running in the 'Standard Car' class so properly out-of-the-box standard and on normal (MSA List 1A) road tyres. It's a surprisingly quick little car, usually finishing well inside the top half of the field despite being - on paper at least - in the bottom 10%. On occasions it's beaten all of the modified <2000cc cars running on stickier rubber, too. It's only been beaten in the SC class by a Clio RS200 (driven by last year's Welsh champion), but this year's win ratio is 9:1 in favour of the Cup. Not too shoddy.

The last track day it did was a damp day at Castle Combe in March. Fitted with R888Rs and a set of Mintex 1155 front pads it was passed only twice on track all day, once by a 911 Turbo and once by a modified Cup. Again, not too bad

And since I've fixed the various issues afflicted upon it by previous owners and 'mechanics' (nothing you could blame it for) it's been completely reliable. It's done 15 events this year, the only thing I've had to do is change the oil.

There are undoubtedly better <2000cc cars out there (I suspect a well driven standard Civic EP3 would pip the Clio) but I'd be surprised if you could find much that's faster up a hill for the £2.5k that the Cup's worth.





confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Thursday 19th October 2017
quotequote all
Thanks for the replies guys, it's sorta as I thought, they can be both quick and slow, depends on the driver/car combination.

Basically, the odds are against me doing this but my thinking is fk it, I'm in a position do at least try to do it so I should! I'm restricted by the trailer and work space I have at the moment, so my thinking was 106/saxo/clio/punto as they're all quite small. I've been looking at EP3's as well but most are out of my budget and/or pushing out more horsepower than I would be comfortable with at the beginning!

I also considered the clio due to availability, there are a few within my price range, though they would require some travelling to get to!

Thurbs said:
I have raced in the 750mc Clio 182 Championship and in the CSCC Tin Tops for 2 years. Here are some of my thoughts.

Pros
- Cheap to buy
- Cheap to fix
- Parts are cheap (wheels, tyres etc)
- Are reasonably quick out the box with only suspension & wheels needed to go racing
- Don’t bother upgrading brakes, just put CL pads in
- Eligible for lots of series including the single make (182 only)
- Rear very stable
- Brakes very good and stable even with ABS
- Great in the wet

Cons
- Lots of understeer (beam setup on rear)
- Standard engine is already near the top of what is possible, max power with lots of mods 240-250bhp, standard Civics will still breeze past
- Standard valves weak, as are clutches
What are the rules like in 750mc regarding modifying cars? Just seeing Puma's and Fiesta's out dragging you makes me think twice about it. Don't get me wrong, I've competed in my Cooper S against much more powerful cars and won so I know how to get at least some time out of them but a car which has bigger displacement been out dragged by a car with less displacement would worry me slightly!

I'd use if for basically anything I could! RSA sprints+ trackdays seem the most appealing to me due to value for money, if I were to hillclimb one it would be in the Ultimate Saloon Class 2 for modified cars up to 2 litre, the main competition coming from 230+ sequential civics which would eat most things alive!

Am I overlooking anything obvious car wise that would be around the same size as the clio? Can't really think of anything else!

Thurbs

2,780 posts

221 months

Friday 20th October 2017
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confucuis said:
What are the rules like in 750mc regarding modifying cars? Just seeing Puma's and Fiesta's out dragging you makes me think twice about it. Don't get me wrong, I've competed in my Cooper S against much more powerful cars and won so I know how to get at least some time out of them but a car which has bigger displacement been out dragged by a car with less displacement would worry me slightly!

I'd use if for basically anything I could! RSA sprints+ trackdays seem the most appealing to me due to value for money, if I were to hillclimb one it would be in the Ultimate Saloon Class 2 for modified cars up to 2 litre, the main competition coming from 230+ sequential civics which would eat most things alive!

Am I overlooking anything obvious car wise that would be around the same size as the clio? Can't really think of anything else!
The Snetterton video I had a coil pack failing which meant mega misfires especially up the rev range however other videos show the same performance differential. One of those Puma's has a special ford motorsport engine in it and is 220+ bhp. One Fiesta racing has 240bhp and 750kg. The Hondas are more like 300bhp. The superfast Clio 172 has 240bhp, 850KG and IRS. I think 4 cars on the grid are ex BTCC production cars with lots of trickery suspension and engines.

This is the stark choice you have. Go single make with a standard ish car and accept rubbing. Go power to weight and accept spending money on the car and probably rubbing. Go open and spend lots of money. The fastest drivers tend to err on single make also but this is not always the case.

The 750mc championship is a low-cost way of racing a clio for single make. All cars on standard engines, boxes etc. Control suspension & ECU. Very close racing with some grids having 15 cars separated by 1s. The onus is on skill. Prepped cars are around £6k. Arrive and drive around £14k for the season (excluding entry but include tyres & testing). Finally, if you buy a Clio, only pay £800 for one from a scrap yard as a MOT failure/broken gear box or something. Don’t buy a £2k autotrader one, it is not worth it.

Here are some examples of equal cars racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei7rqZtIT-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPIXccDR1h4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2TeoaEFUs

I went with the Clio partly because it could race in loads and loads of series and championship. What I didn’t realise at the time is, if you want to win then you can only do it by focusing in on one thing and extracting all the performance you can for that series. If you want to experience it all (like I did), a Clio is a great choice.

Finally, once you race, track days become very tedious and tame. I wouldn’t dream about doing one “for fun” but just use them as occasionally frustrating testing sessions. We were at Donington yesterday with 40 cars booked in. Nearly 30 track day heros didn’t show or went home by lunchtime due to rain so the 10 (mostly) race cars left had a virtually private wet test session.

I have never sprinted as I always knew most of the fun is going door to door and coming out the corner ahead (whether for 1st or 21st it is epic fun). If you think about it, you get to “sprint” or compete against the clock in qualifying but just with others around you & getting in the way… There is a definite skill in sprinting though. Only having 8 goes at a layout is mind boggling as I usually test for up to 40 laps before then having 8 goes during qualifying…



confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Friday 20th October 2017
quotequote all
Thurbs said:
he Snetterton video I had a coil pack failing which meant mega misfires especially up the rev range however other videos show the same performance differential. One of those Puma's has a special ford motorsport engine in it and is 220+ bhp. One Fiesta racing has 240bhp and 750kg. The Hondas are more like 300bhp. The superfast Clio 172 has 240bhp, 850KG and IRS. I think 4 cars on the grid are ex BTCC production cars with lots of trickery suspension and engines.

This is the stark choice you have. Go single make with a standard ish car and accept rubbing. Go power to weight and accept spending money on the car and probably rubbing. Go open and spend lots of money. The fastest drivers tend to err on single make also but this is not always the case.

The 750mc championship is a low-cost way of racing a clio for single make. All cars on standard engines, boxes etc. Control suspension & ECU. Very close racing with some grids having 15 cars separated by 1s. The onus is on skill. Prepped cars are around £6k. Arrive and drive around £14k for the season (excluding entry but include tyres & testing). Finally, if you buy a Clio, only pay £800 for one from a scrap yard as a MOT failure/broken gear box or something. Don’t buy a £2k autotrader one, it is not worth it.

Here are some examples of equal cars racing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ei7rqZtIT-g
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PPIXccDR1h4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2X2TeoaEFUs

I went with the Clio partly because it could race in loads and loads of series and championship. What I didn’t realise at the time is, if you want to win then you can only do it by focusing in on one thing and extracting all the performance you can for that series. If you want to experience it all (like I did), a Clio is a great choice.

Finally, once you race, track days become very tedious and tame. I wouldn’t dream about doing one “for fun” but just use them as occasionally frustrating testing sessions. We were at Donington yesterday with 40 cars booked in. Nearly 30 track day heros didn’t show or went home by lunchtime due to rain so the 10 (mostly) race cars left had a virtually private wet test session.

I have never sprinted as I always knew most of the fun is going door to door and coming out the corner ahead (whether for 1st or 21st it is epic fun). If you think about it, you get to “sprint” or compete against the clock in qualifying but just with others around you & getting in the way… There is a definite skill in sprinting though. Only having 8 goes at a layout is mind boggling as I usually test for up to 40 laps before then having 8 goes during qualifying…
I was wondering alright, that was a rapid little puma lol!

I've my eye on three different cars atm, but they are all 4k+, these would be race cars rather than a standard car. I wonder would it be better just to go out and get a standard one and fit a cage! In Ireland, you can't compete in anything without some sort of cage in the car, so the standard classes don't exist over here unfortunately! Though with the way insurance has gone, ya probably couldn't anyway!

confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Thursday 26th October 2017
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Rather than starting another thread, I thought I'd ask here.

Does anyone know anything about Suzuki Swifts/Cultus? I had originally been looking at these and 106's but they had all disappeared off the classifieds! Now a nice 106 and a nice Swift have both come up!

What should I keep in mind when it comes to the Swift? Given they're getting on a bit in age, I'd need to make sure the body was rust free. Are parts getting expensive? It would fit perfectly into the sub 1.4 catogries and would be a cheap bit of craic I think! The 106 is 5k, 1.5 more than the Swift but I can't see where from the pics the 106 justifies the big price difference!

velocemitch

3,795 posts

219 months

Thursday 26th October 2017
quotequote all
I expect the 106 (Saxo) will be inherently more competitive in its class than the Swift as it weighs nothing. A proper Phase 1 106 1.3 Rallye if you could find one particularly so.

confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Thursday 26th October 2017
quotequote all
velocemitch said:
I expect the 106 (Saxo) will be inherently more competitive in its class than the Swift as it weighs nothing. A proper Phase 1 106 1.3 Rallye if you could find one particularly so.
I always assumed the Swift (the original one now, not the newer model) was the go to model for 1.3's, that the twincam engine was extremely good? I hadn't really considered anything other than the 1.6 for the 106!

velocemitch

3,795 posts

219 months

Thursday 26th October 2017
quotequote all
The original 1294cc Engine in the Rallye s1 is basically an homologation special made for the French Rally championship, you will struggle to find a better more tuneable engine. One of those in a really light 106 shell takes some beating.
Quite rare now though.

confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Thursday 26th October 2017
quotequote all
velocemitch said:
The original 1294cc Engine in the Rallye s1 is basically an homologation special made for the French Rally championship, you will struggle to find a better more tuneable engine. One of those in a really light 106 shell takes some beating.
Quite rare now though.
The list grows longer....

avenger286

425 posts

102 months

Friday 27th October 2017
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Would something on the 1600 class be any good for what you are doing?

confucuis

Original Poster:

1,303 posts

123 months

Sunday 29th October 2017
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avenger286 said:
Would something on the 1600 class be any good for what you are doing?
Definetely, my only true limitations are is has to fit on our trailer (I don't want to have to go down the route of getting a new trailer + tow car etc) and budget (max 6000, maybe slightly more if it;s really special!).

avenger286

425 posts

102 months

Sunday 29th October 2017
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confucuis said:
avenger286 said:
Would something on the 1600 class be any good for what you are doing?
Definetely, my only true limitations are is has to fit on our trailer (I don't want to have to go down the route of getting a new trailer + tow car etc) and budget (max 6000, maybe slightly more if it;s really special!).
OK have you looked at Twingo 133's?
Small, lightweight, agile, cheap and most of all a bit different! Engines are not known to go wrong they were also the basis of the clio S1600 cars plenty of bits if you know where to look (rear end is 172). Good coil overs are hard to find but obviously rear is easy fronts are the problem. Brakes are 172 pads and mk3 laguna calipers and are fantastic front and 172 rear.
I have had mine for 5 years no issues apart from wear and tear. Currently just finishing off turning it into a rally car. Engine running cams and full exhaust system with 165ish bhp.
Hope this gas given you something else to think about.

Sylvaforever

2,212 posts

97 months

Sunday 29th October 2017
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Can you get parts at a reasonable availability and price?


Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Thursday 2nd November 2017
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I can comment a little on 106s as I've owned one for about 15 years and compete in one, mostly in 750mc Roadsports and Enduro.

Great cars to drive and some interesting parts and mods available. Can also be pretty quick for what they are, mine is competitive in a mixed power/weight field.

Biggest downside I think against Clios is they aren't as common which means parts tend to be a little more costly and harder to get hold of; upside is it's fun driving something a little unusual so long as you can get it on the pace.

Since we're doing videos - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Uk_3oMUItIs


Thurbs said:
Finally, once you race, track days become very tedious and tame. I wouldn’t dream about doing one “for fun” but just use them as occasionally frustrating testing sessions. We were at Donington yesterday with 40 cars booked in. Nearly 30 track day heros didn’t show or went home by lunchtime due to rain so the 10 (mostly) race cars left had a virtually private wet test session.
Got to disagree with this. I still trackday and enjoy it.

I wouldn't usually just go to dog round on my own unless I needed to test something but prefer to go with mates who have similar cars so we can have a chase round and I still find it to be a fun and relaxing day. I enjoy the freedom of open pit land rather than waiting round all day for my race and the general chilled atmosphere and banter.