Who is at fault here?

Who is at fault here?

Author
Discussion

Sea Demon

Original Poster:

1,156 posts

212 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all

This should clear it all up!

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kmtv/video/130mph-cras...

Whose fault now?

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Sea Demon said:
This should clear it all up!

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kmtv/video/130mph-cras...

Whose fault now?
That is the clearest evidence I've seen so far that the BMW driver was at fault.

geeks

9,121 posts

138 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Sea Demon said:
This should clear it all up!

http://www.kentonline.co.uk/kmtv/video/130mph-cras...

Whose fault now?
That is the clearest evidence I've seen so far that the BMW driver was at fault.
I still cant see anything in there that makes me think the BMW is at fault? Escort takes a really gash line though that seems to unsettle the car, although car looks settled when it draws alongside, BMW left exactly an Escort size space there.

Is the Escort onboard available? If it isn't then its pretty telling if you ask me...

chunder27

2,309 posts

207 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
In my eyes Birley made a fairly rash move going outside. But his speed difference was large so you can see his point, he had to go one or t'other.

The BM was in the middle of the road, had no reason to move anywhere else, and did NOT make a movement to his left, our right.

But, there has to be an expectation that his car was far slower in terms of power and acceleration and that whatever he did the Escort was likely to drag past with a massive power advantage, I am thinking probably 200hp.

But, in my eyes he did very little wrong other than not roll out of the way when he saw him coming.

As for Birley he made his decision, went for it, found the gap closing a little but also was on the grass and then tried to chop down a bit which forced the spin.

Do you not all think that if he had just kept his foot in, he could have still passed him on the grass!!

Kraken

1,710 posts

199 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
There are too many people with axes to grind when it comes to Birley so it's hard to tell if people really are being objective or not.

I was in two minds when I saw the onboard but with the exterior shot it's clear to me that if any blame is to be assigned it's to the BMW. The angle of the BMW clearly shows it is still moving left when Birley is clearly on his way past.

To be honest it's all a bit pointless as they race in different classes so both got wins either way.

Steve H

5,224 posts

194 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Worth noting from that later external video that the BMW driver clearly looks to his left as the Escort is getting alongside, hard to believe he didn't know it was there. If you want to block you need to do it before the other car has ANY overlap.

I don't understand all the "it was my line" bullst, if there's another car alongside, you need to allow for it, you can't just pretend it's not there. F1 has a lot to answer for in this area.

clubracing

329 posts

205 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
After seeing external footage I'd say BMW driver fully to blame.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Crowhurst is Graham1988 on Youtube, correct?

Watch any of his other Brands Hatch videos. The line he takes from Clearways to Paddock is the shortest line, hugging the pit wall on the right hand side of the start / finish straight. That is also the default defensive line so as to prevent anybody getting up the inside. So why, on the lap where Birley was overtaking, was Crowhurst on the other side of the circuit and moving further and further to the left?

The answer is to intimidate Birley into aborting his overtake and crowd him off the circuit.

Crowhurst waited for Birley to commit one way or the other, waited until he was more than half way alongside, and then continued to reduce the gap until contact was made.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
chunder27 said:
In my eyes Birley made a fairly rash move going outside.
How else are you going to overtake on the start / finish straight at Brands?

n3il123

2,602 posts

212 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Regardless of whos fault, its supposed to be a club meeting so they should play nicely together and give each other a bit of room.

Judging by the state of the Escort its going to be an expensive winter.

http://www.rodbirley.com/News.htm

jeffw

845 posts

227 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Watch the TV pictures a few times now, I think the Escort turns while passing and hits the BMW and at this point the nearside wheel goes on the grass. If the Escort had driven straight on the edge of the track he would have won, at least from the TV pictures.

Kraken

1,710 posts

199 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
The only reason he would turn (I don't think he did from watching it) would be to avoid going onto the grass as the BMW crowds him out.

Far too much of this sort of lack of racing room going on in club motorsports these days IMO. Especially daft in a multi-class series such as this when the two cars in question aren't even competing against each other.

HustleRussell

24,602 posts

159 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Have we established whether Sea Demon = Graham Crowhurst yet?

clubracing

329 posts

205 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
jeffw said:
Watch the TV pictures a few times now, I think the Escort turns while passing and hits the BMW and at this point the nearside wheel goes on the grass. If the Escort had driven straight on the edge of the track he would have won, at least from the TV pictures.
The Escort is just following the curve of the track.

The BMW is in the middle of the track when the Escort is first alongside and then continues to squeeze the Escort to the point where the Escort has both wheels on the white line.

Then the BMW hits the rear corner of the Escort because the driver is still trying to squeeze him off the road even after he's part way ahead.

Sea Demon

Original Poster:

1,156 posts

212 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
HustleRussell said:
Have we established whether Sea Demon = Graham Crowhurst yet?
Ha ha Im not Graham

loggyboy

279 posts

177 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
This has been hugely debated on a few FB groups. A lot seem to point finger at escort but from what ive seen its largely on the BMW (as stewards saw on the day).
A lot saying the escort lost it on the grass which caused the accident, but in fact it was the contact by the BMW that pushed the rear of the escort on to the grass. Just look a the front/rear wheels in relation to the white line each time (screen grab makes the line look wavey, but it is smooth and in line with the slight curve of the Brands pit 'straight'.)
Also lots saying the the he had right to defend, but the overtake was over 200 yards before the contact so the defence was way over what it should have been.


Robmarriott

2,633 posts

157 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
n3il123 said:
Regardless of whos fault, its supposed to be a club meeting so they should play nicely together and give each other a bit of room.

Judging by the state of the Escort its going to be an expensive winter.

http://www.rodbirley.com/News.htm
Holy filler work Batman!

itsallyellow

3,660 posts

219 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
I’ve never had much time for Mr Birley since him being so rude about me trying to enter “his” race series on a few occasions (never being allowed)

I was at Brands on Sunday and saw this all unfold. I think as a fellow club racer I’m on the fence....

I have made a few hard moves in my time and can see the BMW drivers point of view. Also I can see why Rod would think Graham squeezed him.

If the escort had just spun and not hit anything would we all still have the same opinion? I think we become more emotive when we know costs and damage have occurred.

I think this is a very interesting case actually, especially considering who were involved...

Mike

Thurbs

2,780 posts

221 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
Wow, 100% backs up my view.

BMW tipped the Escort around crowding the car off the track. I don't see how anyone sees it any differently?

confused

Mr Overheads

2,436 posts

175 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
quotequote all
I don't know who Birley is and regardless of fault, I'm amazed not one person on here has asked if the driver that hit the wall so hard and fast is ok. Especially after the external video show'ed him not getting out the car and medics climbing in on both sides.

I see that later in the thread the news link gives update on his condition, which looks like he'll make a full recovery but was very lucky. not to be worse off.