Who is at fault here?
Discussion
loggyboy said:
This has been hugely debated on a few FB groups. A lot seem to point finger at escort but from what ive seen its largely on the BMW (as stewards saw on the day).
A lot saying the escort lost it on the grass which caused the accident, but in fact it was the contact by the BMW that pushed the rear of the escort on to the grass. Just look a the front/rear wheels in relation to the white line each time (screen grab makes the line look wavey, but it is smooth and in line with the slight curve of the Brands pit 'straight'.)
Also lots saying the the he had right to defend, but the overtake was over 200 yards before the contact so the defence was way over what it should have been.
That and in the earlier TV piece you can see the guy in the BMW looking towards the Escort... A lot saying the escort lost it on the grass which caused the accident, but in fact it was the contact by the BMW that pushed the rear of the escort on to the grass. Just look a the front/rear wheels in relation to the white line each time (screen grab makes the line look wavey, but it is smooth and in line with the slight curve of the Brands pit 'straight'.)
Also lots saying the the he had right to defend, but the overtake was over 200 yards before the contact so the defence was way over what it should have been.
So, we can gather a few bits here.
Does anyone have a laptime breakdown?
I would think on a clear track Birley was considerably faster. And they were in different classes too I gather?
I think on reflection the BMW did just make it very difficult for Birley to choose a line to pass him, the pass was inevitable I think as Birley has a serious power advantage.
The BM did clearly take a strange line out of the end of the lap, but Birley also was committed, and was given very little room and was carrying way more speed which the BM should have taken into account, and clearly did a little with the tight and wavy line
Does anyone have a laptime breakdown?
I would think on a clear track Birley was considerably faster. And they were in different classes too I gather?
I think on reflection the BMW did just make it very difficult for Birley to choose a line to pass him, the pass was inevitable I think as Birley has a serious power advantage.
The BM did clearly take a strange line out of the end of the lap, but Birley also was committed, and was given very little room and was carrying way more speed which the BM should have taken into account, and clearly did a little with the tight and wavy line
The second video link doesn't work for me, so it's difficult to judge, but purely on that evidence I'm going to sit on the fence & say it was 50/50!
Can somebody clarify the procedure that was carried out here? In such cases the aggrieved driver enters a protest which is handled by the Clerk(s) of the Course. The stewards are only involved if the driver(s) disagree with the Clerk's decision & lodge an appeal. So, did it actually go to the stewards?
The bottom line on this is that it was an avoidable incident.
Can somebody clarify the procedure that was carried out here? In such cases the aggrieved driver enters a protest which is handled by the Clerk(s) of the Course. The stewards are only involved if the driver(s) disagree with the Clerk's decision & lodge an appeal. So, did it actually go to the stewards?
The bottom line on this is that it was an avoidable incident.
QuadCamCapri said:
If it was a run to the flag I could understand the BMW driver making it difficult, but there was still nearly 10 minutes of the race to run and Birley was 2.5 seconds a lap quicker, what was he thinking !
It was the run to the flag. The race was only 5 minutes long because of a major crash at the start so it had to be restarted.Even so what was the point in making life difficult? The Escort is in a different class, there are no extra points or trophies for an outright win as far as I know.
Kraken said:
It was the run to the flag. The race was only 5 minutes long because of a major crash at the start so it had to be restarted.
Even so what was the point in making life difficult? The Escort is in a different class, there are no extra points or trophies for an outright win as far as I know.
Ah ok thanks for the clarification. I guess he just saw his chance for an outright win and went for it, but squeezed the Escort too much IMO.Even so what was the point in making life difficult? The Escort is in a different class, there are no extra points or trophies for an outright win as far as I know.
INdeed the stills make for compelling evidence that Birley had very little room to work with.
He is what you might call a love/hate figure anyway and I can imagine a lot of his rivals get sick of him winning all the time, but he has a clear car advantage and the damn thing probably knows its way around Lydden and Brands without him even driving it, so well set up for both it must be.
Just a daft incident all round, I sway more to the BMW for fault now, after initially thinking Birley was turning across him. But he really had nowhere else to go
He is what you might call a love/hate figure anyway and I can imagine a lot of his rivals get sick of him winning all the time, but he has a clear car advantage and the damn thing probably knows its way around Lydden and Brands without him even driving it, so well set up for both it must be.
Just a daft incident all round, I sway more to the BMW for fault now, after initially thinking Birley was turning across him. But he really had nowhere else to go
The four stills certainly make the sequence easier to understand.
I wonder what evidence was available to the penalty decision maker, who presumably was only able to speak to one of the two drivers ? Probably quite difficult to make a decision, without good photos, or stop action video.
My interpretation is that the first photo shows the Escort to be slightly in the lead.
The subsequent photos show the BMW continuing to move towards the left.
Presumably (4th photo) the BMW contacts, or is about to contact the o/s rear of the Escort. The Escort NSR tyre is now more over the white line, than its NSF tyre, perhaps indicating contact.
Jon39 said:
The four stills certainly make the sequence easier to understand.
...Presumably (4th photo) the BMW contacts, or is about to contact the o/s rear of the Escort. The Escort NSR tyre is now more over the white line, than its NSF tyre, perhaps indicating contact.
We'd really need to see an overhead shot to ascertain the actual moment of contact. Then synchronise that with both in-car cameras to see the actions of each driver.
Either way, the amount of space given is what you'd expect in BTCC, not self-funded amateurs.
Seems like a nice championship to be involved in.
Apparently the penalty given to Crowhurst is not what should have been applied for the rule breaking he was punished for. He should have been excluded or given a one race ban. He is happy that he got a minor penalty but people are seeing that as the stewards just handing it out to make Rod happy.
Crowhurst has had personal messages sent saying things like he should have his face smashed in like the Escort, and Rod's wife has apparently wished a life long disease on him.
Apparently the penalty given to Crowhurst is not what should have been applied for the rule breaking he was punished for. He should have been excluded or given a one race ban. He is happy that he got a minor penalty but people are seeing that as the stewards just handing it out to make Rod happy.
Crowhurst has had personal messages sent saying things like he should have his face smashed in like the Escort, and Rod's wife has apparently wished a life long disease on him.
chunder27 said:
So, we can gather a few bits here.
Does anyone have a laptime breakdown?
I would think on a clear track Birley was considerably faster. And they were in different classes too I gather?
I think on reflection the BMW did just make it very difficult for Birley to choose a line to pass him, the pass was inevitable I think as Birley has a serious power advantage.
The BM did clearly take a strange line out of the end of the lap, but Birley also was committed, and was given very little room and was carrying way more speed which the BM should have taken into account, and clearly did a little with the tight and wavy line
Need to point out that Rod Birley usually wins these races by a clear margin (unless Dale Gent turns up). On this occasion though he started at the "rear" of the grid as he didn't set a qualifying time and yes the race was shortened due to early accidents so I am guessing he wanted the 'win from the back to front in 5minutes' accolade.Does anyone have a laptime breakdown?
I would think on a clear track Birley was considerably faster. And they were in different classes too I gather?
I think on reflection the BMW did just make it very difficult for Birley to choose a line to pass him, the pass was inevitable I think as Birley has a serious power advantage.
The BM did clearly take a strange line out of the end of the lap, but Birley also was committed, and was given very little room and was carrying way more speed which the BM should have taken into account, and clearly did a little with the tight and wavy line
I say "rear" in inverted commas as there were some invitation cars racing and a split start grid was used so he started at the rear of the usual QMS contenders- mid pack in real terms.
Having ran a car in this series all year, giving this one a miss as we had already taken the class title, I have to say it was an unusual day with a lot of bad crashes and not a true reflection of standards in the series in general. Always a bit slippery out there on a truck racing weekend mind and the lap times reflect this.
Lap times are on TSL http://www.tsl-timing.com/file/?f=BARC/2017/174421...
RB Will said:
Seems like a nice championship to be involved in.
Apparently the penalty given to Crowhurst is not what should have been applied for the rule breaking he was punished for. He should have been excluded or given a one race ban. He is happy that he got a minor penalty but people are seeing that as the stewards just handing it out to make Rod happy.
Crowhurst has had personal messages sent saying things like he should have his face smashed in like the Escort, and Rod's wife has apparently wished a life long disease on him.
She wishes him 'a miserable life with a painful life long illness' - such a lovely womanApparently the penalty given to Crowhurst is not what should have been applied for the rule breaking he was punished for. He should have been excluded or given a one race ban. He is happy that he got a minor penalty but people are seeing that as the stewards just handing it out to make Rod happy.
Crowhurst has had personal messages sent saying things like he should have his face smashed in like the Escort, and Rod's wife has apparently wished a life long disease on him.
Just a bit of a shame really.
Both are nice chaps in the paddock, both with some nice cars who usually drive them very well. I'm sure Graham didn't mean to have the race end in that fashion and was probably just a bit of red mist descending in the rush to the line, certainly I doubt there was malice intended.
Hopefully both come back next year fitter and stronger, same goes for the Evo driver and the Brooker family who were also injured at the weekend.
any links to the FB pages where it is being discussed? More so because its nice to see arenas where club motorsport is in discussion then anything else!
Both are nice chaps in the paddock, both with some nice cars who usually drive them very well. I'm sure Graham didn't mean to have the race end in that fashion and was probably just a bit of red mist descending in the rush to the line, certainly I doubt there was malice intended.
Hopefully both come back next year fitter and stronger, same goes for the Evo driver and the Brooker family who were also injured at the weekend.
any links to the FB pages where it is being discussed? More so because its nice to see arenas where club motorsport is in discussion then anything else!
Seems more of a racing incident for me. There was enough space for the Escort to get along side, whether that gap was closing or was closed later, it's difficult to know for sure without seeing the driver inputs - from both cars.
Incident from the same series on the same day (BMW driver in the comments) https://youtu.be/5GDcvPg_3Ik (From 1:40 onwards)
Huge accident - comments suggest everyone walked away.
Incident from the same series on the same day (BMW driver in the comments) https://youtu.be/5GDcvPg_3Ik (From 1:40 onwards)
Huge accident - comments suggest everyone walked away.
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