Who is at fault here?

Who is at fault here?

Author
Discussion

n3il123

2,602 posts

212 months

Tuesday 7th November 2017
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loggyboy said:
This has been hugely debated on a few FB groups. A lot seem to point finger at escort but from what ive seen its largely on the BMW (as stewards saw on the day).
A lot saying the escort lost it on the grass which caused the accident, but in fact it was the contact by the BMW that pushed the rear of the escort on to the grass. Just look a the front/rear wheels in relation to the white line each time (screen grab makes the line look wavey, but it is smooth and in line with the slight curve of the Brands pit 'straight'.)
Also lots saying the the he had right to defend, but the overtake was over 200 yards before the contact so the defence was way over what it should have been.

That and in the earlier TV piece you can see the guy in the BMW looking towards the Escort...

RB Will

9,662 posts

239 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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I know Crowhurst so will pass the link to here on and see if he comes by

loggyboy

279 posts

177 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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RB Will said:
I know Crowhurst so will pass the link to here on and see if he comes by
Hes active on the FB group where this was discussed in length.

Seems most people have made mind up based on Birleys reputation - ignoring the incident in isolation.

chunder27

2,309 posts

207 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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So, we can gather a few bits here.

Does anyone have a laptime breakdown?

I would think on a clear track Birley was considerably faster. And they were in different classes too I gather?

I think on reflection the BMW did just make it very difficult for Birley to choose a line to pass him, the pass was inevitable I think as Birley has a serious power advantage.

The BM did clearly take a strange line out of the end of the lap, but Birley also was committed, and was given very little room and was carrying way more speed which the BM should have taken into account, and clearly did a little with the tight and wavy line

QuadCamCapri

259 posts

150 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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If it was a run to the flag I could understand the BMW driver making it difficult, but there was still nearly 10 minutes of the race to run and Birley was 2.5 seconds a lap quicker, what was he thinking !

Dave Brand

928 posts

267 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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The second video link doesn't work for me, so it's difficult to judge, but purely on that evidence I'm going to sit on the fence & say it was 50/50!

Can somebody clarify the procedure that was carried out here? In such cases the aggrieved driver enters a protest which is handled by the Clerk(s) of the Course. The stewards are only involved if the driver(s) disagree with the Clerk's decision & lodge an appeal. So, did it actually go to the stewards?

The bottom line on this is that it was an avoidable incident.

Kraken

1,710 posts

199 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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QuadCamCapri said:
If it was a run to the flag I could understand the BMW driver making it difficult, but there was still nearly 10 minutes of the race to run and Birley was 2.5 seconds a lap quicker, what was he thinking !
It was the run to the flag. The race was only 5 minutes long because of a major crash at the start so it had to be restarted.

Even so what was the point in making life difficult? The Escort is in a different class, there are no extra points or trophies for an outright win as far as I know.

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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IMO that was deliberate from the BMW. Not cricket in a club race.

QuadCamCapri

259 posts

150 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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Kraken said:
It was the run to the flag. The race was only 5 minutes long because of a major crash at the start so it had to be restarted.

Even so what was the point in making life difficult? The Escort is in a different class, there are no extra points or trophies for an outright win as far as I know.
Ah ok thanks for the clarification. I guess he just saw his chance for an outright win and went for it, but squeezed the Escort too much IMO.

QuadCamCapri

259 posts

150 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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Looking at those stills above again, in the 1st the Escort is just ahead and has racing room, in the following stills the BMW is still closing him down even though the Escort was ahead, bit naughty me thinks.

chunder27

2,309 posts

207 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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INdeed the stills make for compelling evidence that Birley had very little room to work with.

He is what you might call a love/hate figure anyway and I can imagine a lot of his rivals get sick of him winning all the time, but he has a clear car advantage and the damn thing probably knows its way around Lydden and Brands without him even driving it, so well set up for both it must be.

Just a daft incident all round, I sway more to the BMW for fault now, after initially thinking Birley was turning across him. But he really had nowhere else to go

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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The four stills certainly make the sequence easier to understand.

I wonder what evidence was available to the penalty decision maker, who presumably was only able to speak to one of the two drivers ? Probably quite difficult to make a decision, without good photos, or stop action video.

My interpretation is that the first photo shows the Escort to be slightly in the lead.
The subsequent photos show the BMW continuing to move towards the left.
Presumably (4th photo) the BMW contacts, or is about to contact the o/s rear of the Escort. The Escort NSR tyre is now more over the white line, than its NSF tyre, perhaps indicating contact.






Jacobyte

4,718 posts

241 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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Jon39 said:

The four stills certainly make the sequence easier to understand.

...Presumably (4th photo) the BMW contacts, or is about to contact the o/s rear of the Escort. The Escort NSR tyre is now more over the white line, than its NSF tyre, perhaps indicating contact.
It seems odd from that angle in the 4th photo, the BMW doesn't yet appear to be quite close enough to be in contact with the Escort, yet the Escort's front end is already turning right. Did the Escort get sudden power oversteer at that point (perhaps due to going on the white line)? Then again, perhaps contact has already been made - it's got very wide arches.

We'd really need to see an overhead shot to ascertain the actual moment of contact. Then synchronise that with both in-car cameras to see the actions of each driver.

Either way, the amount of space given is what you'd expect in BTCC, not self-funded amateurs.

Jon39

12,782 posts

142 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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RB Will

9,662 posts

239 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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Seems like a nice championship to be involved in.
Apparently the penalty given to Crowhurst is not what should have been applied for the rule breaking he was punished for. He should have been excluded or given a one race ban. He is happy that he got a minor penalty but people are seeing that as the stewards just handing it out to make Rod happy.

Crowhurst has had personal messages sent saying things like he should have his face smashed in like the Escort, and Rod's wife has apparently wished a life long disease on him.

eastlmark

1,654 posts

206 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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chunder27 said:
So, we can gather a few bits here.

Does anyone have a laptime breakdown?

I would think on a clear track Birley was considerably faster. And they were in different classes too I gather?

I think on reflection the BMW did just make it very difficult for Birley to choose a line to pass him, the pass was inevitable I think as Birley has a serious power advantage.

The BM did clearly take a strange line out of the end of the lap, but Birley also was committed, and was given very little room and was carrying way more speed which the BM should have taken into account, and clearly did a little with the tight and wavy line
Need to point out that Rod Birley usually wins these races by a clear margin (unless Dale Gent turns up). On this occasion though he started at the "rear" of the grid as he didn't set a qualifying time and yes the race was shortened due to early accidents so I am guessing he wanted the 'win from the back to front in 5minutes' accolade.
I say "rear" in inverted commas as there were some invitation cars racing and a split start grid was used so he started at the rear of the usual QMS contenders- mid pack in real terms.
Having ran a car in this series all year, giving this one a miss as we had already taken the class title, I have to say it was an unusual day with a lot of bad crashes and not a true reflection of standards in the series in general. Always a bit slippery out there on a truck racing weekend mind and the lap times reflect this.
Lap times are on TSL http://www.tsl-timing.com/file/?f=BARC/2017/174421...

grumpy52

5,565 posts

165 months

Wednesday 8th November 2017
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Both cars certainly took unusual lines off the last bend and along the pit straight.

Edited by grumpy52 on Wednesday 8th November 23:49

Sea Demon

Original Poster:

1,156 posts

212 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
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RB Will said:
Seems like a nice championship to be involved in.
Apparently the penalty given to Crowhurst is not what should have been applied for the rule breaking he was punished for. He should have been excluded or given a one race ban. He is happy that he got a minor penalty but people are seeing that as the stewards just handing it out to make Rod happy.

Crowhurst has had personal messages sent saying things like he should have his face smashed in like the Escort, and Rod's wife has apparently wished a life long disease on him.
She wishes him 'a miserable life with a painful life long illness' - such a lovely woman

snowen250

1,090 posts

182 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
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Just a bit of a shame really.

Both are nice chaps in the paddock, both with some nice cars who usually drive them very well. I'm sure Graham didn't mean to have the race end in that fashion and was probably just a bit of red mist descending in the rush to the line, certainly I doubt there was malice intended.

Hopefully both come back next year fitter and stronger, same goes for the Evo driver and the Brooker family who were also injured at the weekend.

any links to the FB pages where it is being discussed? More so because its nice to see arenas where club motorsport is in discussion then anything else!


miniwill58

121 posts

79 months

Thursday 9th November 2017
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Seems more of a racing incident for me. There was enough space for the Escort to get along side, whether that gap was closing or was closed later, it's difficult to know for sure without seeing the driver inputs - from both cars.

Incident from the same series on the same day (BMW driver in the comments) https://youtu.be/5GDcvPg_3Ik (From 1:40 onwards)
Huge accident - comments suggest everyone walked away.