Single Seaters £10k per Season
Discussion
I’ve searched and sifted and read a wealth of threads on this subject, but some of them aren’t so relevant to me and many of them are quite old / out of date by now.
Some of you might remember that I was asking questions about single seaters this time last year. I chickened out and went Caterham racing again in the end because I felt that my running budget (excluding car purchase cost) of around £10k per season was probably not enough to run competitively in Formula Fords.
Enjoyed another great season in the Caterham Graduates Racing Club, sold the car and now I’m back where I started. I still want to learn how to build, set up and drive single seaters.
Now carless I intend to spend this season having a dabble in this and that to figure out where I want to compete in future.
I want to race single seaters in a potentially race winning car. I don’t want to give myself excuses before I’ve even started. I’m scared of buying because I have no technical knowledge of the cars. How do I know what sort of dampers I need, a good chassis / engine / gearbox from bad etc etc. I am used to Caterhams which have a controlled spec and can be bought and sold for a nominal sum and are therefore to an extent cost neutral. If I buy the wrong single seater I feel like it’d ruin me!
Pointers?
Bertbert championed HSCC FF2000. The problem is the cars aren’t as cheap as they were several years ago. You need slicks and wets which are more than £700 a set? Plus I spoke to the chap who won the championship at Croft last year and he told me that he’d spent a sum on his engine that normal people might spend on a new family hatchback. A Pinto!
I always liked Historic (pre-72) FF1600 perhaps HSCC again but the cars are expensive now, especially the Merlyn Mk20 which I keep being told is ‘the one to have’. They’re all very shiny and they’re all more than £30k. I don’t care about shiny. I’m not likely to keep it that shiny. Tyres are £700 a set again although I realise you don’t go through many. I like the idea of the Kent engine but I’m not looking forward to the day I’m looking at a £5k invoice for a new one.
Classic Formula Ford. I swear you could buy one for £5-8k a few years ago? I do like them though. Results are a bit gappy- Whole seconds separating drivers’ lap times? Same engine situation as historic FF.
Other Formula Ford. I know even less about post ’82 Formula Fords than pre ’82. The look a bit of a faff to set up with inboard suspension etc? I know a guy who had a go in BRSCC in a Zetec car which’d been converted to Kent. He went well in Caterhams but was coming 20th there. I understand that there are a lot of talented drivers in FFs but I can’t help thinking there was more to it. Competition is possibly a bit serious / professional? I’ll have to ask him. I like the character of the older cars more. Same kent engine situation.
Formula Vee. They look like fun and I would quite like a go but I’m not going to learn anything about setting up single seaters. They don’t look very ‘racey’ to drive, gear ratios, gear change, engine etc. Engines cheaper than a Kent to put together but more delicate?
Monoposto and many others- results are very spread out. Either too few competitors or big chequebooks up front?
As you can see I’m all about cost so any series where I will be competing with people like me who don’t have support mechanics, don’t test every Friday etc- suggestions welcomed. I’m going to have an arrive and drive race weekend in one or more of these classes this season plus maybe a go in Club100 and hopefully a go in Dad’s Formula Junior.
Some of you might remember that I was asking questions about single seaters this time last year. I chickened out and went Caterham racing again in the end because I felt that my running budget (excluding car purchase cost) of around £10k per season was probably not enough to run competitively in Formula Fords.
Enjoyed another great season in the Caterham Graduates Racing Club, sold the car and now I’m back where I started. I still want to learn how to build, set up and drive single seaters.
Now carless I intend to spend this season having a dabble in this and that to figure out where I want to compete in future.
I want to race single seaters in a potentially race winning car. I don’t want to give myself excuses before I’ve even started. I’m scared of buying because I have no technical knowledge of the cars. How do I know what sort of dampers I need, a good chassis / engine / gearbox from bad etc etc. I am used to Caterhams which have a controlled spec and can be bought and sold for a nominal sum and are therefore to an extent cost neutral. If I buy the wrong single seater I feel like it’d ruin me!
Pointers?
Bertbert championed HSCC FF2000. The problem is the cars aren’t as cheap as they were several years ago. You need slicks and wets which are more than £700 a set? Plus I spoke to the chap who won the championship at Croft last year and he told me that he’d spent a sum on his engine that normal people might spend on a new family hatchback. A Pinto!
I always liked Historic (pre-72) FF1600 perhaps HSCC again but the cars are expensive now, especially the Merlyn Mk20 which I keep being told is ‘the one to have’. They’re all very shiny and they’re all more than £30k. I don’t care about shiny. I’m not likely to keep it that shiny. Tyres are £700 a set again although I realise you don’t go through many. I like the idea of the Kent engine but I’m not looking forward to the day I’m looking at a £5k invoice for a new one.
Classic Formula Ford. I swear you could buy one for £5-8k a few years ago? I do like them though. Results are a bit gappy- Whole seconds separating drivers’ lap times? Same engine situation as historic FF.
Other Formula Ford. I know even less about post ’82 Formula Fords than pre ’82. The look a bit of a faff to set up with inboard suspension etc? I know a guy who had a go in BRSCC in a Zetec car which’d been converted to Kent. He went well in Caterhams but was coming 20th there. I understand that there are a lot of talented drivers in FFs but I can’t help thinking there was more to it. Competition is possibly a bit serious / professional? I’ll have to ask him. I like the character of the older cars more. Same kent engine situation.
Formula Vee. They look like fun and I would quite like a go but I’m not going to learn anything about setting up single seaters. They don’t look very ‘racey’ to drive, gear ratios, gear change, engine etc. Engines cheaper than a Kent to put together but more delicate?
Monoposto and many others- results are very spread out. Either too few competitors or big chequebooks up front?
As you can see I’m all about cost so any series where I will be competing with people like me who don’t have support mechanics, don’t test every Friday etc- suggestions welcomed. I’m going to have an arrive and drive race weekend in one or more of these classes this season plus maybe a go in Club100 and hopefully a go in Dad’s Formula Junior.
Monoposto.
If you wish to win the race outright, on the current class combinations you would either need to have a Dallara with a 2 litre engine in the F3 class, or a Hyabusa bike engine conversion in the Moto1400 class. If you wish to win your class, you can choose a cheaper class - Mono1000 for Jedi's and Speads, Mono2000/Classic, Mono1800 / Mono1600 for Formula Fords.
So assuming Mono F3, you buy a good car and are able do do all the maintenance yourself, then you could run one within £ 10k a season. Just.
2017 costings for F3 class.
Assumptions made:
1) you already own a car that is capable of mixing it at the front
2) you do your own maintenance and setup
3) you have the means of getting car to and from circuit & accommodation isn't a problem
4) you have a race license, suit, boots etc.,
5) you don't crash.
So:-
£ 2730 for race entries, championship registration and club membership. I think there is a small discount for buying a seasons entry fees up front, but I've done it on a race by race basis.
£ 495 fuel (22 track sessions, 18 litres per session, £ 1.25 per litre)
£ 4620 for tyres (the front runners are using one new set per weekend, then using up the leftovers for testing) plus one set wets
That leaves £ 2,155 to spend on brake pads, brake discs, gear ratios you don't have, and other consumables - rod ends, brake fluid etc., Mono engines are not heavily tuned (standard cams, pistons, blocks and heads), so servicing is comparatively cheap.
Of course crashing changes everything...
Of course that doesn't including testing. Its not essential but many competitors do a half day or a full day testing before, so go into qualifying having re-learnt the circuit and established a baseline setup for that track. They then only have to set one or two laptimes in testing.
Testing would add £ 1800 without garages, and use another £ 575 fuel (assuming you complete every minute of running).
Plus a pre-season shakedown test...
In one of the the other classes you don't need new tyres each meeting, maybe just a couple of sets per season, you don't use as much fuel, so costs come down accordingly. Many of those competitors aren't testing either, so you could run one yourself within budget.
The front runners in Mono F3 tend to use a new set of Pirelli slicks each meeting. You can get used slicks from BRDC F3 teams which have maybe only done one session, which makes things an awful lot cheaper but they've lost a second per lap compared to the new ones. Thus the absolute front runners buy new tyres and those are there for the pure fun of racing a very fast car on a moderate budget are happy with used ones.
Happy to discuss Mono / F3 Cup with you. F3 Cup couldn't be done within budget competitively.
If you wish to win the race outright, on the current class combinations you would either need to have a Dallara with a 2 litre engine in the F3 class, or a Hyabusa bike engine conversion in the Moto1400 class. If you wish to win your class, you can choose a cheaper class - Mono1000 for Jedi's and Speads, Mono2000/Classic, Mono1800 / Mono1600 for Formula Fords.
So assuming Mono F3, you buy a good car and are able do do all the maintenance yourself, then you could run one within £ 10k a season. Just.
2017 costings for F3 class.
Assumptions made:
1) you already own a car that is capable of mixing it at the front
2) you do your own maintenance and setup
3) you have the means of getting car to and from circuit & accommodation isn't a problem
4) you have a race license, suit, boots etc.,
5) you don't crash.
So:-
£ 2730 for race entries, championship registration and club membership. I think there is a small discount for buying a seasons entry fees up front, but I've done it on a race by race basis.
£ 495 fuel (22 track sessions, 18 litres per session, £ 1.25 per litre)
£ 4620 for tyres (the front runners are using one new set per weekend, then using up the leftovers for testing) plus one set wets
That leaves £ 2,155 to spend on brake pads, brake discs, gear ratios you don't have, and other consumables - rod ends, brake fluid etc., Mono engines are not heavily tuned (standard cams, pistons, blocks and heads), so servicing is comparatively cheap.
Of course crashing changes everything...
Of course that doesn't including testing. Its not essential but many competitors do a half day or a full day testing before, so go into qualifying having re-learnt the circuit and established a baseline setup for that track. They then only have to set one or two laptimes in testing.
Testing would add £ 1800 without garages, and use another £ 575 fuel (assuming you complete every minute of running).
Plus a pre-season shakedown test...
In one of the the other classes you don't need new tyres each meeting, maybe just a couple of sets per season, you don't use as much fuel, so costs come down accordingly. Many of those competitors aren't testing either, so you could run one yourself within budget.
The front runners in Mono F3 tend to use a new set of Pirelli slicks each meeting. You can get used slicks from BRDC F3 teams which have maybe only done one session, which makes things an awful lot cheaper but they've lost a second per lap compared to the new ones. Thus the absolute front runners buy new tyres and those are there for the pure fun of racing a very fast car on a moderate budget are happy with used ones.
Happy to discuss Mono / F3 Cup with you. F3 Cup couldn't be done within budget competitively.
Edited by andrewcliffe on Wednesday 10th January 15:19
Edited by andrewcliffe on Wednesday 10th January 15:27
andrewcliffe thanks very much for that detailed breakdown. I’ll have another look at Mono.
I know that the best driver doesn’t need the best car to win and I won’t be winning anything even if I do get the best car. I want a car which is competitive in class for two reasons; firstly ease of resell and secondly so that I don’t have any excuses from the off.
I don’t need to be going really fast either hence my search centering mainly around 1600 Kent classes.
Been looking at BRSCC pre-90 recently, looks like you want a ‘87- Van Diemen, Reynard or possibly Swift fo that?
I know that the best driver doesn’t need the best car to win and I won’t be winning anything even if I do get the best car. I want a car which is competitive in class for two reasons; firstly ease of resell and secondly so that I don’t have any excuses from the off.
I don’t need to be going really fast either hence my search centering mainly around 1600 Kent classes.
Been looking at BRSCC pre-90 recently, looks like you want a ‘87- Van Diemen, Reynard or possibly Swift fo that?
The difference with Mono is the mixture of cars you are racing against. Some like the variety, others don't.
If you joined Mono F3 for example, you would be racing against a number of Dallara cars with a variety of different power plants, but you would be sharing the circuit with Mono 2000 and Mono 2000 Classic cars, which are a mixture of spaceframed 2 litre cars and older Formula 3 derived cars, plus spec cars such as the last generation Formula Renault and the Formula Vauxhall Lotus.
If you joined the other grid, this is made up for Dallaras with bike engines, plus Jedis / Speads / OMS and home built bike engined cars, then Formula Fords of different ages - ranging from a few Duratec engined cars, going back to older things with Kent engines. Quite a mixture of speeds, but for the most part everyone is respectful of each others right to be there.
Monoposto also allows some modification away from standard if you think you can do better. Some cars go very well, but then a good driver drops in with a totally standard car and is very competitive.
If you had a standard Kent engined FF you could pick and choose your races without committing to one championship as the car will be eligible for several championships and you pick and choose the events you want to do. Brands GP with Mono, no problem. Oulton Park with the BRSCC, no problem. Castle Combe with the CCRC championship - step this way...
If you joined Mono F3 for example, you would be racing against a number of Dallara cars with a variety of different power plants, but you would be sharing the circuit with Mono 2000 and Mono 2000 Classic cars, which are a mixture of spaceframed 2 litre cars and older Formula 3 derived cars, plus spec cars such as the last generation Formula Renault and the Formula Vauxhall Lotus.
If you joined the other grid, this is made up for Dallaras with bike engines, plus Jedis / Speads / OMS and home built bike engined cars, then Formula Fords of different ages - ranging from a few Duratec engined cars, going back to older things with Kent engines. Quite a mixture of speeds, but for the most part everyone is respectful of each others right to be there.
Monoposto also allows some modification away from standard if you think you can do better. Some cars go very well, but then a good driver drops in with a totally standard car and is very competitive.
If you had a standard Kent engined FF you could pick and choose your races without committing to one championship as the car will be eligible for several championships and you pick and choose the events you want to do. Brands GP with Mono, no problem. Oulton Park with the BRSCC, no problem. Castle Combe with the CCRC championship - step this way...
HustleRussell said:
If I buy the wrong single seater I feel like it’d ruin me!
I think there is some truth in this, but on the other hand prices of historic racers have increased over the last few years. I paid 3k more for the second Bert-family Reynard and it needed quite a bit more spending on it than the previous one. Both mine are in tip-top condition now with log-books keeping a detailed log of hours and parts. I've not had a mechanical race failure in mine for two seasons. So I'd hope that when I come to do something different, they will be very desirable and get good prices. There is a risk, if FF2000 fell from grace, they might not be in such demand!HustleRussell said:
Bertbert championed HSCC FF2000. The problem is the cars aren’t as cheap as they were several years ago. You need slicks and wets which are more than £700 a set? Plus I spoke to the chap who won the championship at Croft last year and he told me that he’d spent a sum on his engine that normal people might spend on a new family hatchback. A Pinto!
Yes the tyre bill is there, but the # of sets is restricted to 3 of slicks. I reckon you could do the season on 2 unless you wanted to win the championship!Small family hatchback???? What's an entry level Fiesta? 12k ish? Even for a brand new complete engine from scratch, you are talking 5k. And you never need to buy a new one. The knackered engine I had last season (where everyone drove past me on the straights) cost about 1200 for a refresh. It's just been on the dyno and is 3bhp less than a 'top notch engine' having done a season after the refresh.
Anyway, I like FF2000, it doesn't seem to be overly expensive and getting on the podium is fun for an old bloke even if the top step has been elusive so far!
Have fun with your choices! Happy to answer questions!
Bert
andrewcliffe said:
Yes, tyres is often the biggest expense, but for a lot of drivers is the easiest way of gaining a chunk of lap time, and then everyone is sucked into having to have new tyres at each meeting.
I think I need to be in a series which uses the same tyre in all conditions really. ACB9s or ACB10s are more my bag. Can't be doing two grand on tyres. The Hoosier tyres on the Formula Vees look like fun but a top formula vee is encroaching on 1980s FF1600 money.
I've made an enquiry on a late 80s Van Diemen 1600...
It's a shame the RF81 FF2000 isn't allowed in the HSCC, there's what would appear to be a nice one available for reasonable money. That's a car which'd run in Mono. Suppose it wouldn't be competitive among more modern 2000s though.
If its a FF2000 with a Pinto engine, Monoposto actually run these in the Mono1800 class (despite being a 2000cc engine), providing the engine conforms to the BARC Classic FF regulations. Mono has a number of regular FF2000 and others drop in from time to time.
Last season FF2000's came 2nd and 3rd in the class championship, and one won the 2016 Mono1800 class, so you could drop in and out of Mono without major changes providing you have a flashing type rain light (sensible as they're really bright) and meet the 535kg inc. driver minimum weight limit, and stand a chance of knowing that the car would be competitive.
I'm not au fait with the variants of FF2000, but HSCC do move class boundries as things change, but does that then open a can of worms that the HSCC don't want to open? - was there a big step forward around then?
Last season FF2000's came 2nd and 3rd in the class championship, and one won the 2016 Mono1800 class, so you could drop in and out of Mono without major changes providing you have a flashing type rain light (sensible as they're really bright) and meet the 535kg inc. driver minimum weight limit, and stand a chance of knowing that the car would be competitive.
I'm not au fait with the variants of FF2000, but HSCC do move class boundries as things change, but does that then open a can of worms that the HSCC don't want to open? - was there a big step forward around then?
Edited by andrewcliffe on Thursday 11th January 16:53
You can race in the URS (Universal racing services) FF2000 class with an RF81/82.
Grids are not quite as big, but do share with the HSCC cars at times, as well as the HSCC Classic F3 cars.
They are trying hard to get more cars out
Just seen they have a new website if you search ff2000
Grids are not quite as big, but do share with the HSCC cars at times, as well as the HSCC Classic F3 cars.
They are trying hard to get more cars out
Just seen they have a new website if you search ff2000
I raced in Monoposto several years ago, first of all in Mono 1800 with a Vauxhall Junior 16v and then Mono 2000 with a Vauxhall Lotus,but switched to tin tops because I was too crap to drive a single seater!.. Nevertheless I am still a fan of the series and I genuinely believe that you can't go faster and race cheaper for your £ than in Mono 1800 with a Formula Ford Zetec. Most importantly the engines are bullet proof and it may still be possible to get second hand tyres from the F Ford 1600 racers, or more likely buy one new set to last 3-4 meetings.
An alternative would be a more modern US spec FF2000 car with the Zetec engine - they come up occasionally or can be built from the aforementioned FFord Zetec, something like is,
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/8130...
I am not sure whether F Renault are eligible for Mono any more, but if they are then I would look at one of those - modern carbon tub construction, easier / cheaper to get spares for than a Dallara and quite a few about. They won't beat a Dallara but they will still be fun. There was talk some time ago of a F Renault only class and if that is the case, then I would go for that.
There will always be someone to have a dice with in Mono and they are a good bunch of people.
An alternative would be a more modern US spec FF2000 car with the Zetec engine - they come up occasionally or can be built from the aforementioned FFord Zetec, something like is,
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/8130...
I am not sure whether F Renault are eligible for Mono any more, but if they are then I would look at one of those - modern carbon tub construction, easier / cheaper to get spares for than a Dallara and quite a few about. They won't beat a Dallara but they will still be fun. There was talk some time ago of a F Renault only class and if that is the case, then I would go for that.
There will always be someone to have a dice with in Mono and they are a good bunch of people.
Edited by andy97 on Thursday 11th January 22:33
The URS cars are always at HSCC now, as you say, sometimes out with CF3 and sometimes Historic FF2000. Also being able to race in Mono the RF81 looks quite an interesting idea. Might be interested myself, but you can only have a limited number of single seaters in the garage (or so says Mrs Bert!).
ETA: you are still doing slicks and wets though, so will have a 2k bill for the season.
ETA: you are still doing slicks and wets though, so will have a 2k bill for the season.
TonySimpson said:
You can race in the URS (Universal racing services) FF2000 class with an RF81/82.
Grids are not quite as big, but do share with the HSCC cars at times, as well as the HSCC Classic F3 cars.
They are trying hard to get more cars out
Just seen they have a new website if you search ff2000
Grids are not quite as big, but do share with the HSCC cars at times, as well as the HSCC Classic F3 cars.
They are trying hard to get more cars out
Just seen they have a new website if you search ff2000
andy97 said:
I am not sure whether F Renault are eligible for Mono any more, but if they are then I would look at one of those - modern carbon tub construction, easier / cheaper to get spares for than a Dallara and quite a few about. They won't beat a Dallara but they will still be fun. There was talk some time ago of a F Renault only class and if that is the case, then I would go for that.
There will always be someone to have a dice with in Mono and they are a good bunch of people.
There is currently a dedicated class for Formula Renaults (Tatuus / BARC) as there are a lot of those cars out there with nowhere to race. The club thought they could be a modern Formula Vauxhall Lotus - a robust, quick car that is easy to race with plenty of spares availability. Maybe not contending for overall wins although in 2015 a FR took a couple of outright wins in the wet. Outright pace is about 0.5 sec per mile off a Dallara.There will always be someone to have a dice with in Mono and they are a good bunch of people.
andrewcliffe said:
There is currently a dedicated class for Formula Renaults (Tatuus / BARC) as there are a lot of those cars out there with nowhere to race. The club thought they could be a modern Formula Vauxhall Lotus - a robust, quick car that is easy to race with plenty of spares availability. Maybe not contending for overall wins although in 2015 a FR took a couple of outright wins in the wet. Outright pace is about 0.5 sec per mile off a Dallara.
That's what I would look in to, then. Probably could run one for £10k a season and engines should be very robust as basically a road engine.I had an historic FF2000 for a while, the prices have crept up a bit lately particularly for a Reynard but providing you don't destroy it it should be an appreciating asset.
Running costs weren't too bad, I worked on it myself and built my own motor which saved some money. I didn't go mad on tyres and didn't bend it and I would say it was cheaper to run than my previous cars which were standardish fwd saloons.
I was never great in it though, despite being quite successful in saloons I just couldn't really get to grips with it, plus I'd started to lose interest a bit. I managed to win a couple of eggcups here and there but certainly not a consistent front runner.
I reckon I'd be looking at a classic FF2000 if I wanted to get back into racing single seaters
Running costs weren't too bad, I worked on it myself and built my own motor which saved some money. I didn't go mad on tyres and didn't bend it and I would say it was cheaper to run than my previous cars which were standardish fwd saloons.
I was never great in it though, despite being quite successful in saloons I just couldn't really get to grips with it, plus I'd started to lose interest a bit. I managed to win a couple of eggcups here and there but certainly not a consistent front runner.
I reckon I'd be looking at a classic FF2000 if I wanted to get back into racing single seaters
I don't think the OP mentions potential purchase budget but this is cheapest FR on RCD
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/7985...
Others available at about €20k.
https://www.racecarsdirect.com/Advert/Details/7985...
Others available at about €20k.
Presumably it's 5k lower than the rest for a reason. If it's not generally worn, then perhaps it's high on engine or gearbox hours.
I have to say that buying single-seaters is a bit of a pain in the arse. Now perhaps I'm jaded, but sellers just seem to grossly exaggerate the condition, or just plain lie! Or maybe that's the game!
I went to see a 2000 last winter when I was on the hunt (and saw many in fact). This one was very highly described and priced, but patently s
te! Old, rusty, bodged, hacked, vile. The seller told me with a straight face that the motor was fresh. On enquiring further it was refreshed 20 years ago and had done nothing since, really?
Back on topic, what's the tyre situation in FR in Monposto? The advert says slicks, wets and intermediates, the cost of that will mount up for the OP's budget!
Bert
I have to say that buying single-seaters is a bit of a pain in the arse. Now perhaps I'm jaded, but sellers just seem to grossly exaggerate the condition, or just plain lie! Or maybe that's the game!
I went to see a 2000 last winter when I was on the hunt (and saw many in fact). This one was very highly described and priced, but patently s
te! Old, rusty, bodged, hacked, vile. The seller told me with a straight face that the motor was fresh. On enquiring further it was refreshed 20 years ago and had done nothing since, really?Back on topic, what's the tyre situation in FR in Monposto? The advert says slicks, wets and intermediates, the cost of that will mount up for the OP's budget!
Bert
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