Future Racer Seeking Advice...
Discussion
So it looks like the opportunity of a lifetime has presented itself and I may be racing next year... I've just your average Joe so I never thought I'd ever get to race but it looks like that's exactly what might happen next year.
I've been doing track days for over 10 years now and I'd describe myself as 'competent' on track, but one thing I feel I need to learn more about is car set-ups. Pushing a car to it's limit is one thing but getting the most out of the car is another, and I don't know enough about the latter.
I've come here in hope that there are some knowledgeable people who can help me understand how to make positive adjustments to my car, instead of simply suggesting coilovers or R888's.
For example... How do I know how to set a car up? If I'm struggling how do I know if it's me, the car, the tyres, or the suspension?? Today I drove around Rockingham in the rain and I was hopeless, I don't mind admitting it. In my defence it's the first time I've driven this particular car on track and I wasn't comfortable in it, but I had no idea why I was so slow.
Where do I begin??
I've been doing track days for over 10 years now and I'd describe myself as 'competent' on track, but one thing I feel I need to learn more about is car set-ups. Pushing a car to it's limit is one thing but getting the most out of the car is another, and I don't know enough about the latter.
I've come here in hope that there are some knowledgeable people who can help me understand how to make positive adjustments to my car, instead of simply suggesting coilovers or R888's.
For example... How do I know how to set a car up? If I'm struggling how do I know if it's me, the car, the tyres, or the suspension?? Today I drove around Rockingham in the rain and I was hopeless, I don't mind admitting it. In my defence it's the first time I've driven this particular car on track and I wasn't comfortable in it, but I had no idea why I was so slow.
Where do I begin??
If you can run “consistent” laps then buy a data-logger and understand how to use it. Also buy a temp probe to measure tyre temps. Run laps, take measurements, make adjustments. Trial & error.
Or, find a friendly competitor who will share setup data. Or, hire a race mech who will help.
Or, find a friendly competitor who will share setup data. Or, hire a race mech who will help.
MrOrange said:
If you can run “consistent” laps then buy a data-logger and understand how to use it. Also buy a temp probe to measure tyre temps. Run laps, take measurements, make adjustments. Trial & error.
Or, find a friendly competitor who will share setup data. Or, hire a race mech who will help.
I would say that was a premature suggestion! Surely, the main thing would be to learn to drive initially, and by that, i don't mean the basics of how to drive, but how to drive competitively with a total understanding of car dynamics!! It would be a pointless task making adjustments to set-up, if the way he drives induces understeer, or oversteer, or both! Or, find a friendly competitor who will share setup data. Or, hire a race mech who will help.
Also, a data-logger only becomes useful once the driver can drive competently, and with a good base set up on the car. Then the data logger will help fine tune what the driver or car is actually doing!
So my advice would be to invest in some coaching from an experienced driver coach, not a "Race Instructor" with 18 months experience. Once you have done that, then move onto car set up! HTH
ginettajoe said:
I would say that was a premature suggestion! Surely, the main thing would be to learn to drive initially, and by that, i don't mean the basics of how to drive, but how to drive competitively with a total understanding of car dynamics!! It would be a pointless task making adjustments to set-up, if the way he drives induces understeer, or oversteer, or both!
Also, a data-logger only becomes useful once the driver can drive competently, and with a good base set up on the car. Then the data logger will help fine tune what the driver or car is actually doing!
So my advice would be to invest in some coaching from an experienced driver coach, not a "Race Instructor" with 18 months experience. Once you have done that, then move onto car set up! HTH
Good point and, yes, re-reading I had jumped the gun. A good driver coach would also help with a base setup if you cant find/borrow/bribe one from someone else. Getting familiar with a car takes time, lots of it, do try to get as much wheel time as possible; testing days and even track days.Also, a data-logger only becomes useful once the driver can drive competently, and with a good base set up on the car. Then the data logger will help fine tune what the driver or car is actually doing!
So my advice would be to invest in some coaching from an experienced driver coach, not a "Race Instructor" with 18 months experience. Once you have done that, then move onto car set up! HTH
I would suggest getting some who knows what they are doing to set the car up initially, as they will get all of the settings there or there about's.
Getting someone who's used to driving similar cars can also help as they'll know if it's right or not, my BMW had some rear suspension issues when I first raced it but inexperience made me assume that's just how they were, probably wasted a year buggering about with it.
Now that the cars handling well I can at the level I race (budget club level) the main changes I make to the car is the rear shock stiffness to get the car driving how I like it. Obviously the more competitive you get the more things you'll need to be doing to the car but as a start the above works for me.
Getting someone who's used to driving similar cars can also help as they'll know if it's right or not, my BMW had some rear suspension issues when I first raced it but inexperience made me assume that's just how they were, probably wasted a year buggering about with it.
Now that the cars handling well I can at the level I race (budget club level) the main changes I make to the car is the rear shock stiffness to get the car driving how I like it. Obviously the more competitive you get the more things you'll need to be doing to the car but as a start the above works for me.
I would recommend an good in car camera, set up to have a clear view of the driver, as well as a clear view of the road. Some include basic telemetry based on GPS which give an indication of speed and G-Forces. After getting the official times from TSL for example, you can review the session and work out why lap 7 was better, and why you mistakenly thought lap 4 was your fastest lap based on the seat of the pants feel.
It is a fairly good idea to keep a log of each session - fuel load, tyre pressures (cold), weather, track conditions as you may refer to that in future.
Most club race series are fairly friendly and know that everyone was a beginner and will give useful advice, and if there is a more experienced driver in a similar car, use him as a reference.
It is a fairly good idea to keep a log of each session - fuel load, tyre pressures (cold), weather, track conditions as you may refer to that in future.
Most club race series are fairly friendly and know that everyone was a beginner and will give useful advice, and if there is a more experienced driver in a similar car, use him as a reference.
I would get someone to drive your car and set it up to a point that you know the cars ok and can produce a competitive time, then you know what your working with from a drivers point of view.
I can suggest approaching someone that's at the front of the field that you want to race in too, that knows the cars inside out. instead of paying someone that races in GTs or Touring cars, They may not be quite as good of an over all driver, but they may be faster in that type of car and know exactly what it should feel like.
I can suggest approaching someone that's at the front of the field that you want to race in too, that knows the cars inside out. instead of paying someone that races in GTs or Touring cars, They may not be quite as good of an over all driver, but they may be faster in that type of car and know exactly what it should feel like.
Acquire a car which is already proven to work, failing that pay someone who is familiar with the series to give you a baseline setup, then drive, drive, drive until you have gained sufficient experience in and out of the car to begin to find ways to tailor it.
The uncomfortable truth is that you may be seconds off the pace but if the fastest driver got in your car he or she would probably be within tenths pretty much straight away provided you car isn't a complete shed. What you will quickly learn is that laptime is pretty much all about the driver and setup is about the last tenth or two. That means if you are seconds off there is a large chunk of performance to found in your driving before you start trying to develop laptime into the car.
If someone experienced has setup the car, they are the skilled chef who has prepared your meal. Once you have tried it you might choose to add salt and / or pepper for taste. You probably aren't going to separate out the tomatoes and add pineapple.
The uncomfortable truth is that you may be seconds off the pace but if the fastest driver got in your car he or she would probably be within tenths pretty much straight away provided you car isn't a complete shed. What you will quickly learn is that laptime is pretty much all about the driver and setup is about the last tenth or two. That means if you are seconds off there is a large chunk of performance to found in your driving before you start trying to develop laptime into the car.
If someone experienced has setup the car, they are the skilled chef who has prepared your meal. Once you have tried it you might choose to add salt and / or pepper for taste. You probably aren't going to separate out the tomatoes and add pineapple.
Edited by HustleRussell on Monday 15th October 12:13
What car are you going to compete in? Some (like single seaters) can need a lot of setup at each circuit especially for wet/dry condition and others (tin tops perhaps) are pretty good once set up to go out and do a decent job. Then as others have said, it's much more about learning to drive and learning racecraft than the optimal car setup. In fact as I found running myself (as I have done from time to time as budget and available free time wax and wane), thinking about the car and the setup completely takes my mind off thinking about the driving (which obviously means I have pretty limited brainpower).
One thing I have found for me is that having a predictive lap timer is a brilliant tool. I find it really hard to know if what I did at any point on the circuit was good or bad in testing. Having the predictive display tells me. That elated feeling as you go through paddock and see you have come out 0.2s quicker or that sinking feeling as the timer 'loses' time as you go along the Bentley Straight. Did what I tried make a positive or negative difference?
The video is the first tool for coaching especially when you are new to racing. If you can afford integrated video and data, that is good. So a VBOX with the OLED is good but a big chunk of cash. I'd start with a gopro (or clone) and an AIM Solo if you can. If your budget doesn't allow a logger or coaching, then use the video and nab other competitors, armchair experts on PH or whomever to have a look and give ideas. Even I'd have a look, although I know the square root of not much. I have on a few occasions managed to give actual helpful tips though.
HTH
Bert
One thing I have found for me is that having a predictive lap timer is a brilliant tool. I find it really hard to know if what I did at any point on the circuit was good or bad in testing. Having the predictive display tells me. That elated feeling as you go through paddock and see you have come out 0.2s quicker or that sinking feeling as the timer 'loses' time as you go along the Bentley Straight. Did what I tried make a positive or negative difference?
The video is the first tool for coaching especially when you are new to racing. If you can afford integrated video and data, that is good. So a VBOX with the OLED is good but a big chunk of cash. I'd start with a gopro (or clone) and an AIM Solo if you can. If your budget doesn't allow a logger or coaching, then use the video and nab other competitors, armchair experts on PH or whomever to have a look and give ideas. Even I'd have a look, although I know the square root of not much. I have on a few occasions managed to give actual helpful tips though.
HTH
Bert
RaceChrono is a good app for your phone. That will give you lap times using GPS and while it might not be 100% accurate it will allow you to find out where you are relative to other people in similar cars with a bit of Googling and will also help you with getting a bit of consistency.
Good constructive advice... Looks like I've asked the right people!
To answer a couple of questions... If all goes to plan I'll be racing a Mk3 MX-5 in the BARC MAX5 Championship, and it'll be an 'arrive and drive' format so the car won't belong to me. The car I'll be driving has already competed and has been built by Roddison Motorsport, so all the main preparation has been taken care of. My weekend car is also a Mk3 MX-5 and was hoping to get it set up similar so I could get extra practice/seat time while I'm not competing.
As far as my driving goes I guess I'll just have to see how I get on. At circuits like Oulton and Donington where I've done most of my trackdays I'm pretty confident as long as it's dry. I think I'll encounter most of my issues when it comes to things like circuits I've never done, wet days and bumper-to-bumper driving that I'm not accustomed to. In the past I've compared my lap times to qualifying times of similar race cars and to be fair I've been on the pace.
After reading the comments I agree that perhaps I'm being a little too keen wanting to understand set-ups before I've even done a practice lap, so I may leave that on the back burner for now... I've got this thread to return to anyway when the time comes!
To answer a couple of questions... If all goes to plan I'll be racing a Mk3 MX-5 in the BARC MAX5 Championship, and it'll be an 'arrive and drive' format so the car won't belong to me. The car I'll be driving has already competed and has been built by Roddison Motorsport, so all the main preparation has been taken care of. My weekend car is also a Mk3 MX-5 and was hoping to get it set up similar so I could get extra practice/seat time while I'm not competing.
As far as my driving goes I guess I'll just have to see how I get on. At circuits like Oulton and Donington where I've done most of my trackdays I'm pretty confident as long as it's dry. I think I'll encounter most of my issues when it comes to things like circuits I've never done, wet days and bumper-to-bumper driving that I'm not accustomed to. In the past I've compared my lap times to qualifying times of similar race cars and to be fair I've been on the pace.
After reading the comments I agree that perhaps I'm being a little too keen wanting to understand set-ups before I've even done a practice lap, so I may leave that on the back burner for now... I've got this thread to return to anyway when the time comes!
Edited by SteBurns on Monday 15th October 20:38
Paul Roddison builds a good car so it should have a good base set up. If it's an arrive and drive then just give as much consistent feedback to the team running you and they should be able to sort out the changes needed.
I don't think there are that many set up options on a Max5 car, though, but happy to be told other wise.
I don't think there are that many set up options on a Max5 car, though, but happy to be told other wise.
Edited by andy97 on Monday 15th October 22:44
If you are running as part of the team, part of the role the team plays is helping you progress, so I would expect debrief sessions.
As a team may be running a mixture of drivers, ranging from novice to experienced, they may ask questions - and won't expect a F1 style debrief of the driver knowing exactly what speed/revs he is doing and being able to break a corner down into indivdual elements, and will understand that a beginner will not be as informed as others with more circuit experience.
Simply asking the driver how the car feels, and the response may given them sufficient feedback to recommend changes - it may be stiffening or softening one end, or adjustment of tyre pressures - but if you are involved in the discussion to the end where a decision is made on setup, you'll know for next time.
I would say video is essential, especially if it can be merged with data or has basic data built in. There is software to merge data with footage. Most of the time you won't have a passenger to watch you, so the next best thing is footage.
A predictive lap system is pretty good as well - you can try a different line and if you suddenly find yourself 0.5s up on your previous best, you know whatever you did during that last corner worked. You know also in advance when to abort a qualifying lap and to use the rest of that lap to prepare for the next one - finding a bit of space on the circuit, and making your your exit from the last corner of the lap is as best as it could be.
In our experience with single seater drivers, at the start they are often overwhelmed and don't have the spare mental capacity to look at gauges. Fortunately it doesn't take that long before it all starts to slot into place and they are able to look at gauges, think about their driving whilst driving as well, starting to plan ahead for the rest of the session or race, as well as getting on with the job of driving the damn thing.
As a team may be running a mixture of drivers, ranging from novice to experienced, they may ask questions - and won't expect a F1 style debrief of the driver knowing exactly what speed/revs he is doing and being able to break a corner down into indivdual elements, and will understand that a beginner will not be as informed as others with more circuit experience.
Simply asking the driver how the car feels, and the response may given them sufficient feedback to recommend changes - it may be stiffening or softening one end, or adjustment of tyre pressures - but if you are involved in the discussion to the end where a decision is made on setup, you'll know for next time.
I would say video is essential, especially if it can be merged with data or has basic data built in. There is software to merge data with footage. Most of the time you won't have a passenger to watch you, so the next best thing is footage.
A predictive lap system is pretty good as well - you can try a different line and if you suddenly find yourself 0.5s up on your previous best, you know whatever you did during that last corner worked. You know also in advance when to abort a qualifying lap and to use the rest of that lap to prepare for the next one - finding a bit of space on the circuit, and making your your exit from the last corner of the lap is as best as it could be.
In our experience with single seater drivers, at the start they are often overwhelmed and don't have the spare mental capacity to look at gauges. Fortunately it doesn't take that long before it all starts to slot into place and they are able to look at gauges, think about their driving whilst driving as well, starting to plan ahead for the rest of the session or race, as well as getting on with the job of driving the damn thing.
Just to add, you can expect a team with experience with that model and that type or tyre will already know how much camber, toe, spring rate, damping etc works and so you can just concentrate on whether the tyres are hanging on or going off, whether you have too much under or oversteer and under which conditions that occurs etc.
Don't be discouraged by your experience at Rockingham, That circuit has a freakishly low level of wet grip on account of the unique surface used. It feels painfully slow in places.
Don't be discouraged by your experience at Rockingham, That circuit has a freakishly low level of wet grip on account of the unique surface used. It feels painfully slow in places.
When we were running single seaters for various drivers, the car would be set up in the workshop based on previous visits and refined. If it was a new circuit there would be a certain amount of guesswork based on the geography of the circuit and comparing it to similar circuits.
As there was usually a Friday test session, the setup would be refined as the driver got used to the circuit. It was generally + or - wing angles or stiffening / softening dampers with some adjustment to tyre pressures.
Occasionally the driver would like a gear change adjustment, but thankfully most of the time what we chose in the workshop was fine,
After each session that was a debrief between driver and team to find out about the car. Data was examined, partially to make sure that the engine was operating healthily, but throttle and brake traces looked at alongside video footage as part of our job of making the driver go that little bit faster.
Usually it was brake later, brake harder, and brake for a shorter period of time.
As there was usually a Friday test session, the setup would be refined as the driver got used to the circuit. It was generally + or - wing angles or stiffening / softening dampers with some adjustment to tyre pressures.
Occasionally the driver would like a gear change adjustment, but thankfully most of the time what we chose in the workshop was fine,
After each session that was a debrief between driver and team to find out about the car. Data was examined, partially to make sure that the engine was operating healthily, but throttle and brake traces looked at alongside video footage as part of our job of making the driver go that little bit faster.
Usually it was brake later, brake harder, and brake for a shorter period of time.
As above. If you're doing arrive and drive then the car will probably come with a decent setup to start with, and usually teams running A&D will know how to change things to achieve your desired effect. One thing I would recommend though is to get used to the car first before trying to fiddle; just concentrate on getting comfortable in the car and in learning its handling traits.
Hi Steve
So you are the guy peddling the car I've just sold to Aaron?
Assuming this is the case, I will be at every race weekend (Max5) and more than happy to do track walks, help with set-up suggestions etc.
One thing I can't recommend highly enough is 'seat time' and I'm more than happy to give tuition on trackdays should you want it.....
The yellow car is a fantastic car and look forward to seeing you on the grid.
Paul
So you are the guy peddling the car I've just sold to Aaron?
Assuming this is the case, I will be at every race weekend (Max5) and more than happy to do track walks, help with set-up suggestions etc.
One thing I can't recommend highly enough is 'seat time' and I'm more than happy to give tuition on trackdays should you want it.....
The yellow car is a fantastic car and look forward to seeing you on the grid.
Paul
Hi Paul,
Yes I'm Aaron's mate who you've already met several times already this year. Aaron is convincing me to have a go next year so I'm trying to find out as much as I can in the meantime. I recently bought a Mk3 road car and although I've not driven it much I'm convinced it doesn't handle right, and I'm hoping it's not the nut behind the wheel!
Yes I'm Aaron's mate who you've already met several times already this year. Aaron is convincing me to have a go next year so I'm trying to find out as much as I can in the meantime. I recently bought a Mk3 road car and although I've not driven it much I'm convinced it doesn't handle right, and I'm hoping it's not the nut behind the wheel!
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