Ex 205 challenge car good or bad idea
Discussion
Ok so, as per the title, talk me out of it. I've been doing some historic road rallies with hrcr and stuff. Not loads just a couple as a fun thing to do with my 71 1275gt and the other half as a nav.
It's been fun, we do ok but not mega, in the tests I can be in the top 15 most of the time but the regularity bit whilst interesting isn't totally my bag. And the other half, although she does enjoy it usually goes home with a headache and finds it a bit stressful.
2 things have happened, first was the devils own, which was really pretty rough in places, which was great but I had to be careful and steady with the car in sections, there was no way I could get near to the avg speeds in bits as it was so rough, I drove home (admittedly unknowingly and only about 4 miles) on a flat rear that had hit a rock. The other is that the events are a full weekend and we have only managed to do three this year, when I raced mx we used to go 3 times a month and now with the road racing it is once a month for 6-7 months of the year. So I want the ability to do a few more events in the year.
To that end I was looking at getting a cheap targa car, as although I'm ok with using the mini Im also mindful that I don't want to totally kill it. I think targas my just speed up its killing, it's in no way a show car and is a mongrel, it left the factory as a 1000 clubman and has been altered along the way to what it is now, which is a good spec. But essentially it's not got any historical value like say a genuine 1275gt or Cooper s would/does.
So anyway I was looking at targa cars cheap things and then got carried away. To ex Peugeot 205 challenge cars that are MSA logbooked. And I've found one. A 1985 1.6gti its had a light roll but been repaired, used and scruitineered since. It's been sat for a couple years and needs some bits getting for it. Like seats harnesses the extinguisher renewing and also sump guard/tank guards. But it being 1985 makes it eligible for all sorts. I.e. Historic road and stage rallies.
Now I'm not daft, I know stage rallying is a lot of £££ but that's not totally putting me off. I have been motocrossing since 5 and for the last 5-6 years road racing, so I am used to a weekends sport costing me £5-600. Which is what I have sorta worked out stage rallying would cost, prob a little more. And in amongst hands I can do targas and historic road rallies, so plenty of action. And the targas etc are pretty cheap.
However I'm not sure where that leaves the mini, I always have wanted a mini since I was about 10. Even my brother damn near killing me in one when I was 13 coming home from school, didn't really put me off, but until this time last year I'd never had one or driven one. And with prices going the way they are with them if i were to sell it I'm not sure I'll ever have another one.
There's also some bits I'm not sure of with the 205, like how long is an msa logbook valid for, and how much that matters for historic as I think, if I understand the regs correctly the car only needs to conform to the fia yellow book appendix j as at the end of 1985 (seats harnesses and helmet Hans overalls still need to conform to the current msa regs) and the current fia appendix k.
I'm also unsure on things like
how long will a set of gravel tyres last with clubman use.
How many spare sets of wheels and tyres will I need.
Is the roll cage in the 205 still compliant, or does it need replacing, it was last mot'd in 2008.
If I have to use a different nav, do they just turn up and away we go or should they contribute, or should I contribute to their costs?
Do I have to have nomex under clothing and a fia approved suit or just a fia suit?
I do live in a good area for gravel rallies with north Wales a little over an hour away and grizedale Carlisle stages etc all within an hour also.
But I won't lie the cost of getting a licence with the bars etc and then the safety equipment requirement does put me off, I made up a demon tweeks basket of what we'd need, £1400 each plus the bars which if mixed into a full day rally school is £500 each. So thick end of £2000 each (I know the nav doesn't need a bars test but she'd want one and she'd want to have a go at some point as well I'd think) before you have a car or even enter a rally, it's no wonder grass roots rallying is starting to suffer I guess.
And then the actual stage mileage you get seems pretty poor, using the grizedale stages as an example 40-50 stage miles and only 4 stages which was really only 2 stages run twice isn't much value for money. Road racing with the bikes is expensive but I think gives better value for money.
I've sorta rambled on here a bit and probably haven't made a clear question/statement, but basically has anybody got some sage advice or pointers of things to avoid or wished you'd done differently or advice on Cheapest place for seats, suits helmets etc. Anybody got a 205 stage car they want to sell? Phil price is where I've looked at the bars test but anybody else want to recommend somewhere. If unused for a number of years does a bars test expire, or if you keep renewing your license does it remain even if you don't enter a rally. And then if anybody can advise on the car and bluebook specific questions above
Thanks
Ps- I have read section J K and R of the blue book but to be honest there are still some grey areas
It's been fun, we do ok but not mega, in the tests I can be in the top 15 most of the time but the regularity bit whilst interesting isn't totally my bag. And the other half, although she does enjoy it usually goes home with a headache and finds it a bit stressful.
2 things have happened, first was the devils own, which was really pretty rough in places, which was great but I had to be careful and steady with the car in sections, there was no way I could get near to the avg speeds in bits as it was so rough, I drove home (admittedly unknowingly and only about 4 miles) on a flat rear that had hit a rock. The other is that the events are a full weekend and we have only managed to do three this year, when I raced mx we used to go 3 times a month and now with the road racing it is once a month for 6-7 months of the year. So I want the ability to do a few more events in the year.
To that end I was looking at getting a cheap targa car, as although I'm ok with using the mini Im also mindful that I don't want to totally kill it. I think targas my just speed up its killing, it's in no way a show car and is a mongrel, it left the factory as a 1000 clubman and has been altered along the way to what it is now, which is a good spec. But essentially it's not got any historical value like say a genuine 1275gt or Cooper s would/does.
So anyway I was looking at targa cars cheap things and then got carried away. To ex Peugeot 205 challenge cars that are MSA logbooked. And I've found one. A 1985 1.6gti its had a light roll but been repaired, used and scruitineered since. It's been sat for a couple years and needs some bits getting for it. Like seats harnesses the extinguisher renewing and also sump guard/tank guards. But it being 1985 makes it eligible for all sorts. I.e. Historic road and stage rallies.
Now I'm not daft, I know stage rallying is a lot of £££ but that's not totally putting me off. I have been motocrossing since 5 and for the last 5-6 years road racing, so I am used to a weekends sport costing me £5-600. Which is what I have sorta worked out stage rallying would cost, prob a little more. And in amongst hands I can do targas and historic road rallies, so plenty of action. And the targas etc are pretty cheap.
However I'm not sure where that leaves the mini, I always have wanted a mini since I was about 10. Even my brother damn near killing me in one when I was 13 coming home from school, didn't really put me off, but until this time last year I'd never had one or driven one. And with prices going the way they are with them if i were to sell it I'm not sure I'll ever have another one.
There's also some bits I'm not sure of with the 205, like how long is an msa logbook valid for, and how much that matters for historic as I think, if I understand the regs correctly the car only needs to conform to the fia yellow book appendix j as at the end of 1985 (seats harnesses and helmet Hans overalls still need to conform to the current msa regs) and the current fia appendix k.
I'm also unsure on things like
how long will a set of gravel tyres last with clubman use.
How many spare sets of wheels and tyres will I need.
Is the roll cage in the 205 still compliant, or does it need replacing, it was last mot'd in 2008.
If I have to use a different nav, do they just turn up and away we go or should they contribute, or should I contribute to their costs?
Do I have to have nomex under clothing and a fia approved suit or just a fia suit?
I do live in a good area for gravel rallies with north Wales a little over an hour away and grizedale Carlisle stages etc all within an hour also.
But I won't lie the cost of getting a licence with the bars etc and then the safety equipment requirement does put me off, I made up a demon tweeks basket of what we'd need, £1400 each plus the bars which if mixed into a full day rally school is £500 each. So thick end of £2000 each (I know the nav doesn't need a bars test but she'd want one and she'd want to have a go at some point as well I'd think) before you have a car or even enter a rally, it's no wonder grass roots rallying is starting to suffer I guess.
And then the actual stage mileage you get seems pretty poor, using the grizedale stages as an example 40-50 stage miles and only 4 stages which was really only 2 stages run twice isn't much value for money. Road racing with the bikes is expensive but I think gives better value for money.
I've sorta rambled on here a bit and probably haven't made a clear question/statement, but basically has anybody got some sage advice or pointers of things to avoid or wished you'd done differently or advice on Cheapest place for seats, suits helmets etc. Anybody got a 205 stage car they want to sell? Phil price is where I've looked at the bars test but anybody else want to recommend somewhere. If unused for a number of years does a bars test expire, or if you keep renewing your license does it remain even if you don't enter a rally. And then if anybody can advise on the car and bluebook specific questions above
Thanks
Ps- I have read section J K and R of the blue book but to be honest there are still some grey areas
28hodge said:
Ok so, as per the title, talk me out of it. I've been doing some historic road rallies with hrcr and stuff. Not loads just a couple as a fun thing to do with my 71 1275gt and the other half as a nav.
It's been fun, we do ok but not mega, in the tests I can be in the top 15 most of the time but the regularity bit whilst interesting isn't totally my bag. And the other half, although she does enjoy it usually goes home with a headache and finds it a bit stressful.
2 things have happened, first was the devils own, which was really pretty rough in places, which was great but I had to be careful and steady with the car in sections, there was no way I could get near to the avg speeds in bits as it was so rough, I drove home (admittedly unknowingly and only about 4 miles) on a flat rear that had hit a rock. The other is that the events are a full weekend and we have only managed to do three this year, when I raced mx we used to go 3 times a month and now with the road racing it is once a month for 6-7 months of the year. So I want the ability to do a few more events in the year.
To that end I was looking at getting a cheap targa car, as although I'm ok with using the mini Im also mindful that I don't want to totally kill it. I think targas my just speed up its killing, it's in no way a show car and is a mongrel, it left the factory as a 1000 clubman and has been altered along the way to what it is now, which is a good spec. But essentially it's not got any historical value like say a genuine 1275gt or Cooper s would/does.
So anyway I was looking at targa cars cheap things and then got carried away. To ex Peugeot 205 challenge cars that are MSA logbooked. And I've found one. A 1985 1.6gti its had a light roll but been repaired, used and scruitineered since. It's been sat for a couple years and needs some bits getting for it. Like seats harnesses the extinguisher renewing and also sump guard/tank guards. But it being 1985 makes it eligible for all sorts. I.e. Historic road and stage rallies.
Now I'm not daft, I know stage rallying is a lot of £££ but that's not totally putting me off. I have been motocrossing since 5 and for the last 5-6 years road racing, so I am used to a weekends sport costing me £5-600. Which is what I have sorta worked out stage rallying would cost, prob a little more. And in amongst hands I can do targas and historic road rallies, so plenty of action. And the targas etc are pretty cheap.
However I'm not sure where that leaves the mini, I always have wanted a mini since I was about 10. Even my brother damn near killing me in one when I was 13 coming home from school, didn't really put me off, but until this time last year I'd never had one or driven one. And with prices going the way they are with them if i were to sell it I'm not sure I'll ever have another one.
There's also some bits I'm not sure of with the 205, like how long is an msa logbook valid for, and how much that matters for historic as I think, if I understand the regs correctly the car only needs to conform to the fia yellow book appendix j as at the end of 1985 (seats harnesses and helmet Hans overalls still need to conform to the current msa regs) and the current fia appendix k.
I'm also unsure on things like
how long will a set of gravel tyres last with clubman use.
How many spare sets of wheels and tyres will I need.
Is the roll cage in the 205 still compliant, or does it need replacing, it was last mot'd in 2008.
If I have to use a different nav, do they just turn up and away we go or should they contribute, or should I contribute to their costs?
Do I have to have nomex under clothing and a fia approved suit or just a fia suit?
I do live in a good area for gravel rallies with north Wales a little over an hour away and grizedale Carlisle stages etc all within an hour also.
But I won't lie the cost of getting a licence with the bars etc and then the safety equipment requirement does put me off, I made up a demon tweeks basket of what we'd need, £1400 each plus the bars which if mixed into a full day rally school is £500 each. So thick end of £2000 each (I know the nav doesn't need a bars test but she'd want one and she'd want to have a go at some point as well I'd think) before you have a car or even enter a rally, it's no wonder grass roots rallying is starting to suffer I guess.
And then the actual stage mileage you get seems pretty poor, using the grizedale stages as an example 40-50 stage miles and only 4 stages which was really only 2 stages run twice isn't much value for money. Road racing with the bikes is expensive but I think gives better value for money.
I've sorta rambled on here a bit and probably haven't made a clear question/statement, but basically has anybody got some sage advice or pointers of things to avoid or wished you'd done differently or advice on Cheapest place for seats, suits helmets etc. Anybody got a 205 stage car they want to sell? Phil price is where I've looked at the bars test but anybody else want to recommend somewhere. If unused for a number of years does a bars test expire, or if you keep renewing your license does it remain even if you don't enter a rally. And then if anybody can advise on the car and bluebook specific questions above
Thanks
Ps- I have read section J K and R of the blue book but to be honest there are still some grey areas
it will be more expensive than you think. I don't think its possible to do a multi venue stage rally for less than a grand. you also have to factor in servicing, do you have any mates that can wield a spanner for you? A single venue might be cheaper and easier but it will still be £700.It's been fun, we do ok but not mega, in the tests I can be in the top 15 most of the time but the regularity bit whilst interesting isn't totally my bag. And the other half, although she does enjoy it usually goes home with a headache and finds it a bit stressful.
2 things have happened, first was the devils own, which was really pretty rough in places, which was great but I had to be careful and steady with the car in sections, there was no way I could get near to the avg speeds in bits as it was so rough, I drove home (admittedly unknowingly and only about 4 miles) on a flat rear that had hit a rock. The other is that the events are a full weekend and we have only managed to do three this year, when I raced mx we used to go 3 times a month and now with the road racing it is once a month for 6-7 months of the year. So I want the ability to do a few more events in the year.
To that end I was looking at getting a cheap targa car, as although I'm ok with using the mini Im also mindful that I don't want to totally kill it. I think targas my just speed up its killing, it's in no way a show car and is a mongrel, it left the factory as a 1000 clubman and has been altered along the way to what it is now, which is a good spec. But essentially it's not got any historical value like say a genuine 1275gt or Cooper s would/does.
So anyway I was looking at targa cars cheap things and then got carried away. To ex Peugeot 205 challenge cars that are MSA logbooked. And I've found one. A 1985 1.6gti its had a light roll but been repaired, used and scruitineered since. It's been sat for a couple years and needs some bits getting for it. Like seats harnesses the extinguisher renewing and also sump guard/tank guards. But it being 1985 makes it eligible for all sorts. I.e. Historic road and stage rallies.
Now I'm not daft, I know stage rallying is a lot of £££ but that's not totally putting me off. I have been motocrossing since 5 and for the last 5-6 years road racing, so I am used to a weekends sport costing me £5-600. Which is what I have sorta worked out stage rallying would cost, prob a little more. And in amongst hands I can do targas and historic road rallies, so plenty of action. And the targas etc are pretty cheap.
However I'm not sure where that leaves the mini, I always have wanted a mini since I was about 10. Even my brother damn near killing me in one when I was 13 coming home from school, didn't really put me off, but until this time last year I'd never had one or driven one. And with prices going the way they are with them if i were to sell it I'm not sure I'll ever have another one.
There's also some bits I'm not sure of with the 205, like how long is an msa logbook valid for, and how much that matters for historic as I think, if I understand the regs correctly the car only needs to conform to the fia yellow book appendix j as at the end of 1985 (seats harnesses and helmet Hans overalls still need to conform to the current msa regs) and the current fia appendix k.
I'm also unsure on things like
how long will a set of gravel tyres last with clubman use.
How many spare sets of wheels and tyres will I need.
Is the roll cage in the 205 still compliant, or does it need replacing, it was last mot'd in 2008.
If I have to use a different nav, do they just turn up and away we go or should they contribute, or should I contribute to their costs?
Do I have to have nomex under clothing and a fia approved suit or just a fia suit?
I do live in a good area for gravel rallies with north Wales a little over an hour away and grizedale Carlisle stages etc all within an hour also.
But I won't lie the cost of getting a licence with the bars etc and then the safety equipment requirement does put me off, I made up a demon tweeks basket of what we'd need, £1400 each plus the bars which if mixed into a full day rally school is £500 each. So thick end of £2000 each (I know the nav doesn't need a bars test but she'd want one and she'd want to have a go at some point as well I'd think) before you have a car or even enter a rally, it's no wonder grass roots rallying is starting to suffer I guess.
And then the actual stage mileage you get seems pretty poor, using the grizedale stages as an example 40-50 stage miles and only 4 stages which was really only 2 stages run twice isn't much value for money. Road racing with the bikes is expensive but I think gives better value for money.
I've sorta rambled on here a bit and probably haven't made a clear question/statement, but basically has anybody got some sage advice or pointers of things to avoid or wished you'd done differently or advice on Cheapest place for seats, suits helmets etc. Anybody got a 205 stage car they want to sell? Phil price is where I've looked at the bars test but anybody else want to recommend somewhere. If unused for a number of years does a bars test expire, or if you keep renewing your license does it remain even if you don't enter a rally. And then if anybody can advise on the car and bluebook specific questions above
Thanks
Ps- I have read section J K and R of the blue book but to be honest there are still some grey areas
Use the London Rally School, Iain Duncan the chief instructor there is starting to make a very good name for himself in 121 tuition and rally coaching.
tyres will last less time than you think, although if you are careful you should get a rally out of them, but it depends how competitive you want to be.
co-drivers - you'll need to find one, not easy, some might pay, a lot won't. It depends on the relationship you have with them.
a 205 is an old car, you'll need to read the bluebook on cages etc. I think seats have to be lifed, so you may have to replace them.
BARS test once passed, is valid for as long as you keep renewing your licence. If you were to stop competing for 10 years they might ask you to re take it.
It might be worth hiring something for the first season to do a couple of events and see how it pans out.
Yeah I think you are summing up what I already thought. As much as I'd like to have a look at some stage events it's not worth the cost, when targas are so much more accessible.
The stage thought only went through my head when I started looking for a 205 that was historic eligible and the one that turned up was logbooked. I'll prob still head that way and simply make it compliant with the historic road regs and use it for targas also and possible some 12 cars.
The seats definitely only have a 5 (think now 7) year life span, it's the cage I'm unsure about if it's fit as per current regs is it still compliant, as I'd like to keep the car logbooked if I can.
Navs I'd be ok for most of the time as it would be the other half, and mates with spanners id manage too as my brother is a fabrication welder and more than a little keen for building/rebuilding a stage car.
All that said the money involved puts me off, I'll wait and see if the new motorsport uk regime brings any difference but if not I'll just use it for targas etc.
The stage thought only went through my head when I started looking for a 205 that was historic eligible and the one that turned up was logbooked. I'll prob still head that way and simply make it compliant with the historic road regs and use it for targas also and possible some 12 cars.
The seats definitely only have a 5 (think now 7) year life span, it's the cage I'm unsure about if it's fit as per current regs is it still compliant, as I'd like to keep the car logbooked if I can.
Navs I'd be ok for most of the time as it would be the other half, and mates with spanners id manage too as my brother is a fabrication welder and more than a little keen for building/rebuilding a stage car.
All that said the money involved puts me off, I'll wait and see if the new motorsport uk regime brings any difference but if not I'll just use it for targas etc.
Although there is a clear intention to try and control the costs of Stage Rallying by the new look MS uk, I don’t think it’s going to mean any radical changes, costs are always going to be higher than road rallies, Targa, Historic or original Night events.
That said a Historic 205 which is eligible for road based events could always be taken the step further and made into a stage car. If you start with a Stage car, you might find issues working backwards as you would need to replace all the interior, remove upright handbrakes etc. It’s a car which would be fully competitive on Targa and hold it’s own on the stages too, so it’s still a good choice.
I’m not a 205 expert, but I think you need to be careful with Historic elligbilty a lot of early cars will have had parts from the later cars added, which are not legal in Historics. I think certain suspension parts were fitted to 1.9’s not the 1.6’s, but only 1.6’s are Historic.
As for the events themselves, I’d stick to Targa for now as you will be able to control the costs much easier, keep the Mini for doing the odd Historic.
If your Nav is up for it have a go at ‘proper’ road Rallying, the north west England events like the G&P Memorial, Primrose and Clitheronian will give you by the most bang for your buck if you are looking at ‘competitive’ mileage. Like the night section of the Devils own, but at twice the pace!.
That said a Historic 205 which is eligible for road based events could always be taken the step further and made into a stage car. If you start with a Stage car, you might find issues working backwards as you would need to replace all the interior, remove upright handbrakes etc. It’s a car which would be fully competitive on Targa and hold it’s own on the stages too, so it’s still a good choice.
I’m not a 205 expert, but I think you need to be careful with Historic elligbilty a lot of early cars will have had parts from the later cars added, which are not legal in Historics. I think certain suspension parts were fitted to 1.9’s not the 1.6’s, but only 1.6’s are Historic.
As for the events themselves, I’d stick to Targa for now as you will be able to control the costs much easier, keep the Mini for doing the odd Historic.
If your Nav is up for it have a go at ‘proper’ road Rallying, the north west England events like the G&P Memorial, Primrose and Clitheronian will give you by the most bang for your buck if you are looking at ‘competitive’ mileage. Like the night section of the Devils own, but at twice the pace!.
I’ve rallied an ex challenge 205 in the past.
Great place to start in stage Rallying, cheap, all parts available off the shelf. Also if you throw the rear seats and carpet back in it can still be road/targa rallied. Only issue is given that the challenge was 15+ years ago they are often very tired shell wise. Buying the cheapest car is nearly always a false economy!
In terms of the cost for a weekend, you are looking at £1k+ for a forest event (entries are £500-600 alone). Then you’ll need fuel, tyres, hotel, notes and chase car on some events. A single venue event will be do-able for £500, there are some excellent ones within a few hours of you. In the forest a set of tyres would last you all day easy. On a single venue we take a set of softs, set of mediums and a set of wets.
The cage in a 205 should still comply with the blue book, my 106 cup car still uses its original homologated cage from 1999. Although in a 205 it will probably need some bars adding in the rear diagonal so the belts can be mounted in the right place for a HANS device. Also the seats have to be side mounted now so you may have to weld seat rails in! Best advice is have a look in the latest blue book, find a local scrutineer and ask them to come and look over the car if your unsure what you need for it to comply.
I can 100% recommend Phil Price rally school for your BARS. He is a great guy. Also you can rent his rally stage at very reasonable rates for testing so if you wanted to do some forest test miles once you’ve got a car it’s ideal. You can pick up a used race suit etc on eBay for £100ish and a new budget helmet and Hans will knock you around £6/700. That’s all you ‘need’ to get through scrutineering. But most have gloves, balaclava and boots too. Navigator just needs a non-race nat b licence. Just apply on MSUK website (£50ish).
I’d go for it, stages are great fun!
Great place to start in stage Rallying, cheap, all parts available off the shelf. Also if you throw the rear seats and carpet back in it can still be road/targa rallied. Only issue is given that the challenge was 15+ years ago they are often very tired shell wise. Buying the cheapest car is nearly always a false economy!
In terms of the cost for a weekend, you are looking at £1k+ for a forest event (entries are £500-600 alone). Then you’ll need fuel, tyres, hotel, notes and chase car on some events. A single venue event will be do-able for £500, there are some excellent ones within a few hours of you. In the forest a set of tyres would last you all day easy. On a single venue we take a set of softs, set of mediums and a set of wets.
The cage in a 205 should still comply with the blue book, my 106 cup car still uses its original homologated cage from 1999. Although in a 205 it will probably need some bars adding in the rear diagonal so the belts can be mounted in the right place for a HANS device. Also the seats have to be side mounted now so you may have to weld seat rails in! Best advice is have a look in the latest blue book, find a local scrutineer and ask them to come and look over the car if your unsure what you need for it to comply.
I can 100% recommend Phil Price rally school for your BARS. He is a great guy. Also you can rent his rally stage at very reasonable rates for testing so if you wanted to do some forest test miles once you’ve got a car it’s ideal. You can pick up a used race suit etc on eBay for £100ish and a new budget helmet and Hans will knock you around £6/700. That’s all you ‘need’ to get through scrutineering. But most have gloves, balaclava and boots too. Navigator just needs a non-race nat b licence. Just apply on MSUK website (£50ish).
I’d go for it, stages are great fun!
Thanks for the reply, funny you should mention another shell and shells being tired, I have found a nice rolling shell that has a 10poont omp cage available with it, it's not historic age though, I have found a donar car that is but I think reshelling cars is basically now considered ringing. But it would be eligible for historic 4b stage rallying butnot historic road rallies till the reg changed again which could be years I guess.
We both have national b non race licenses as we need them for the road rallies, the other half is Norwegian so I'll need to check with msuk if that creates an additional problem, as for the non race nat b I had to get her federation to release her. It basically cost me £120 for her license rather than £50!!
The cost is still putting me off when targas exist that prob provide just as much mileage at a fraction of the cost and from what I can see will only grow. The single venue stuff doesn't excite me a lot, it's basically an expensive targa, if I was going I'd want to be in the forests but a £1k a time for the mileage etc isn't value for money to me
We both have national b non race licenses as we need them for the road rallies, the other half is Norwegian so I'll need to check with msuk if that creates an additional problem, as for the non race nat b I had to get her federation to release her. It basically cost me £120 for her license rather than £50!!
The cost is still putting me off when targas exist that prob provide just as much mileage at a fraction of the cost and from what I can see will only grow. The single venue stuff doesn't excite me a lot, it's basically an expensive targa, if I was going I'd want to be in the forests but a £1k a time for the mileage etc isn't value for money to me
28hodge said:
The cost is still putting me off when targas exist that prob provide just as much mileage at a fraction of the cost and from what I can see will only grow. The single venue stuff doesn't excite me a lot, it's basically an expensive targa, if I was going I'd want to be in the forests but a £1k a time for the mileage etc isn't value for money to me
I'd go for it - I am considering a 205 myself for this as it would allow me to take the Escort more towards stage spec. I nearly won one on ebay the other week but it didnt meet the reserve.A car that does both SV stages and Targas is a good choice imho. A logbooked car is always worth more than just a road rally car.
Targas are a fair bit cheaper than stages but SV stages are good fun. Nice to be able to do one or two stage rallies as well as the Targas. The only real difference is £50 VS £300 for entry as well as the safety gear running costs.
Tyres for Targas are still needed though if you want to be in with a shout for the win (in East Anglia anyway) and I would strongly recommend an LSD to be competitive as well.
28hodge said:
The cost is still putting me off when targas exist that prob provide just as much mileage at a fraction of the cost and from what I can see will only grow. The single venue stuff doesn't excite me a lot, it's basically an expensive targa, if I was going I'd want to be in the forests but a £1k a time for the mileage etc isn't value for money to me
Don't focus on mileage. I do hillclimbs and sprints (at some venues that's £150 for about three miles!) and I enjoy them more than the rallying I used to do.Like all things, there are good and bad Targas, there are good and bad SVs, and there are good and bad multi-venue rallies. I haven't done many Targas - and perhaps they were the crap ones - but I didn't enjoy them; they were too nadgery to keep the average speeds down, plus stopping every thirty seconds for a code board or control. My over-riding memory of forest rallying is following the rock-filled ruts of the higher-seeded cars, not something I'm excited about repeating. Tarmac multi-venues like Epynt were more my thing, but I generally preferred a good single-venue; fast, fun and undamaging stages with enough time between stages to fix the car or enjoy time with your mates. Nothing at all like a Targa, in my experience anyway.
Thanks for the replies, the 205 is definitely appealing, mainly due to its 1985 age and the ability to allow lots of options for events. In all honesty the mini would not take much to get to stage spec, but again I'm mindful that I don't want to accelerate it's killing. That and I can only imagine to work involved keeping it maintained whilst using it as a stage car
Im guessing the 205gti should only appreciate in value over then next 10-15 years. Even a ropey ex stage car.
Galveston I think the regs have changed. I was reading the Roger Albert Clarke 2wd championship sup regs and that says that they get to run first on the roads and I believe that the MSA changed the regs last year to revise the fastest first stage running order, meaning the older smaller cars get the benefit of a smoother stage and aren't just sat in ruts, multiple use stages however will still see you sat in the ruts I guess.
Is there any ability to rent the gear for the event. I'm quite happy to put the seats harnesses in and seat rails etc so that it's all in date and renew the fire extinguishers etc. But a suit helmet and hans is still going to be £800 each. If we could rent them for a couple events that would be good as it'd mean my brother could co drive and my other half.
The car I have found has an fia historic cage in it, which was fine, but now isn't as it has no harness bar. We can easily get some cds tube and fit one, however I thought I'd read somewhere that if you modified it then it wasn't legal to use and the scruits wouldn't pass it. Read the blue book and I can't see why you can't alter them as long as you do it within the guidelines laid out? My brother is a fabrication welder so doing it correctly isn't a problem, unless the scruits are going to say it is. We could always just make up a harness bar that is standalone from the cage I guess.
Velocemitch your right, there are some spec aspects that will need reverting to make it historic compliant, it's got a 1.9 rear beam with discs on it, the 84-85 1.6gtis has drums only on the rear, also it's got a hydraulic handbrake so that'll need to come off for targas. But that's about it from what I can see and gather. It's a bit of a project but it's got the majority of the right bits. It just needs some Tlc and sorting out.
I think I have managed to move on a project that I don't think I would have gotten round to doing anytime soon to free up some space and give me some cash towards the 205. So my partly restored 1992 Mini Cooper is going, it's a shame as it's one of the last carb'd mini coopers ever made before they all moved over the spi. So I think one day I may look at what they are worth and curse myself but needs must.
I'm heading home now after being away at my other halves family for Christmas in Norway so hopefully the mini will get collected before I go back to work on the 3rd and I can go grab the 205 a week or so after that. What I'll use it for most is still up for debate but having loads of options is nice.
Birthday in march, think I'll ask for my bars test!
Im guessing the 205gti should only appreciate in value over then next 10-15 years. Even a ropey ex stage car.
Galveston I think the regs have changed. I was reading the Roger Albert Clarke 2wd championship sup regs and that says that they get to run first on the roads and I believe that the MSA changed the regs last year to revise the fastest first stage running order, meaning the older smaller cars get the benefit of a smoother stage and aren't just sat in ruts, multiple use stages however will still see you sat in the ruts I guess.
Is there any ability to rent the gear for the event. I'm quite happy to put the seats harnesses in and seat rails etc so that it's all in date and renew the fire extinguishers etc. But a suit helmet and hans is still going to be £800 each. If we could rent them for a couple events that would be good as it'd mean my brother could co drive and my other half.
The car I have found has an fia historic cage in it, which was fine, but now isn't as it has no harness bar. We can easily get some cds tube and fit one, however I thought I'd read somewhere that if you modified it then it wasn't legal to use and the scruits wouldn't pass it. Read the blue book and I can't see why you can't alter them as long as you do it within the guidelines laid out? My brother is a fabrication welder so doing it correctly isn't a problem, unless the scruits are going to say it is. We could always just make up a harness bar that is standalone from the cage I guess.
Velocemitch your right, there are some spec aspects that will need reverting to make it historic compliant, it's got a 1.9 rear beam with discs on it, the 84-85 1.6gtis has drums only on the rear, also it's got a hydraulic handbrake so that'll need to come off for targas. But that's about it from what I can see and gather. It's a bit of a project but it's got the majority of the right bits. It just needs some Tlc and sorting out.
I think I have managed to move on a project that I don't think I would have gotten round to doing anytime soon to free up some space and give me some cash towards the 205. So my partly restored 1992 Mini Cooper is going, it's a shame as it's one of the last carb'd mini coopers ever made before they all moved over the spi. So I think one day I may look at what they are worth and curse myself but needs must.
I'm heading home now after being away at my other halves family for Christmas in Norway so hopefully the mini will get collected before I go back to work on the 3rd and I can go grab the 205 a week or so after that. What I'll use it for most is still up for debate but having loads of options is nice.
Birthday in march, think I'll ask for my bars test!
I have used hire-fit twice and 1st class service both times . Why not look out for used suits and helmets? I have an ex m sport suit that was that was used once and my son who navigates for me has an ex f3 one that was used a few times. Both look like new. Plenty of ways to save money if you have a bit of time and do some searching.
Re build the car so you can do as many events as you can so if you can't do stages you can still do tagas.
Re build the car so you can do as many events as you can so if you can't do stages you can still do tagas.
Edited by avenger286 on Thursday 3rd January 20:51
I may just be a little further on from you so can help - I've been doing Targas since they started, won the 2018 ASWMC Targa Championship and won the Rushmoor Targa overall. I was in my ex-Endurance rally 1400 214 Rover for the ASWMC events and my 1275 Autosolo Micra for the Rushmoor. Pretty standard Micra, no LSD in either, just uprated suspension plus guards on the Rover. You don't need a very quick cars on most Targas, just drive it quickly!
My sons have been out on SV and MV Stage events and Endurance/Targa events. We all far prefer Targas as we're on the go most of the time, moreso when it's a SV Targa and you can drive and navigate. Great value for money and not too bad on the car. SV Stage events they found boring, MV events far better, but the value is there with Targas in many ways. Personally, I'd never go back to the Stages, I enjoy Targas far more and they're way cheaper in entry fees, car maintenance and tyres. I used some old Michelin Pilot Exalto 2s to win at Rushmoor, I couldn't be bothered to change the road wheels!
I used to own an ex-works 205 GTi (D666 CVC) but went end over end in Ringwood Forest, which stopped the Stage rallying for a while. I still have loads of 205 parts so it made sense to go 205 GTi for Historics (I've been doing the Targa section of Historic events, with Regularities, in the Rover).
On the 205 front, I now have three! A standard one and two prepared cars. One I may be selling. Bear in mind that a Cat 4 Historic car no longer has to be Registered before the end of 1985, it purely has to be of the Homologated specification at the end of 1985. This makes far more 205s eligible for Historic Road Rallies. My two F Reg cars are both eligible for Historics. Road Rally Regs (which include Targas) enable you to use a standard car, so there's far more flexibility with cages, seats, etc - use what you have, no lifing of parts. Some Targas do require a rear cage and harnesses.
I went for the 205 GTi as it should appreciate as you say. The Rover is really throwing money away, but it is very strong, reliable and handles well. A well built MG ZR would be a good option. I used one of my 205s on a Targa at Wethersfield, I think I would have been quicker in the Rover - the 205 understeered a great deal - it has a Quaife LSD but the front end geometry probably needs some attention, I can'r remember any of my other 205s with Quaifes (I've had several) understeering so much.
If you need to know anything about Targas then just ask. Also look at the new Cotswold Motor Sport Group (CMSG) Targa Road Rally Championship which I run - 6 rounds, three to count which can include Marshal points. Two single venue events where you can share a standard car, with its own Championship Award. There are also Championship Awards for Under 25s. Only £10 to enter the Championship plus there will be discounts on rally equipment available.
My sons have been out on SV and MV Stage events and Endurance/Targa events. We all far prefer Targas as we're on the go most of the time, moreso when it's a SV Targa and you can drive and navigate. Great value for money and not too bad on the car. SV Stage events they found boring, MV events far better, but the value is there with Targas in many ways. Personally, I'd never go back to the Stages, I enjoy Targas far more and they're way cheaper in entry fees, car maintenance and tyres. I used some old Michelin Pilot Exalto 2s to win at Rushmoor, I couldn't be bothered to change the road wheels!
I used to own an ex-works 205 GTi (D666 CVC) but went end over end in Ringwood Forest, which stopped the Stage rallying for a while. I still have loads of 205 parts so it made sense to go 205 GTi for Historics (I've been doing the Targa section of Historic events, with Regularities, in the Rover).
On the 205 front, I now have three! A standard one and two prepared cars. One I may be selling. Bear in mind that a Cat 4 Historic car no longer has to be Registered before the end of 1985, it purely has to be of the Homologated specification at the end of 1985. This makes far more 205s eligible for Historic Road Rallies. My two F Reg cars are both eligible for Historics. Road Rally Regs (which include Targas) enable you to use a standard car, so there's far more flexibility with cages, seats, etc - use what you have, no lifing of parts. Some Targas do require a rear cage and harnesses.
I went for the 205 GTi as it should appreciate as you say. The Rover is really throwing money away, but it is very strong, reliable and handles well. A well built MG ZR would be a good option. I used one of my 205s on a Targa at Wethersfield, I think I would have been quicker in the Rover - the 205 understeered a great deal - it has a Quaife LSD but the front end geometry probably needs some attention, I can'r remember any of my other 205s with Quaifes (I've had several) understeering so much.
If you need to know anything about Targas then just ask. Also look at the new Cotswold Motor Sport Group (CMSG) Targa Road Rally Championship which I run - 6 rounds, three to count which can include Marshal points. Two single venue events where you can share a standard car, with its own Championship Award. There are also Championship Awards for Under 25s. Only £10 to enter the Championship plus there will be discounts on rally equipment available.
Edited by alanwak on Friday 4th January 17:09
Edited by alanwak on Friday 4th January 17:11
If you go on to the "Rally log in and natter" fb page you should be able to find a long discussion about the possible attempt to resurrect the 205 Challenge as a "quasi historic" series (my description). There is a separate FB page set up for those interested, I think. Something like, "205 and 309 Challenge Discussion Group".
Ta, I've had a read through, and it's quite a read and I think I agree, the 205 challenge worked as buying a shell and resheling a bent car was a cheap and easy thing to do, now buying a shell for a 205 is not going to be done in a few days.
The one thing that puts me off and makes think I'll just do targas and historic road rallies in it is that the cost to even get to the start of a rally is too much and I don't see value for money in it, this isn't from someone who has never done motorsport I have competed in motorsport since I was 5 years old every year for till now and I'm 33. I'll happily go away road racing from Thursday night to Sunday night/Monday morning and spend £5-600 quid just on the racing side of it, ignoring the food and associated costs that go with it as a minimum, but the costs for rallying versus the mileage and number of stages I think would leave me fairly dissatisfied.
When the challenge was running what was the cost of the equipment you needed and was there a bars test equivalent that was required?
The one thing that puts me off and makes think I'll just do targas and historic road rallies in it is that the cost to even get to the start of a rally is too much and I don't see value for money in it, this isn't from someone who has never done motorsport I have competed in motorsport since I was 5 years old every year for till now and I'm 33. I'll happily go away road racing from Thursday night to Sunday night/Monday morning and spend £5-600 quid just on the racing side of it, ignoring the food and associated costs that go with it as a minimum, but the costs for rallying versus the mileage and number of stages I think would leave me fairly dissatisfied.
When the challenge was running what was the cost of the equipment you needed and was there a bars test equivalent that was required?
Ok I have been looking at sorting the MSA log book out and changing the ownership etc.
Anyway the current MSA logbook will run out 31st dec 2020, so I need to get a new passport for the car. Is this just a straight transfer of the current logbook to a passport and get the scruit to sign it off and send it in? or does its spec need updating to the current regs?
I know I'll have to sort the fire extinguishers out but the scruit can just say it needs compliant seats and harnesses it does not actually need them in at the time the passport is applied for it just needs to be ready for them (according to the scruit passport guidance notes)
The car was originally logbooked in 1996 and was compliant then, it wont be now as I think the fixings and ROPS dia has changed since then. So how do historic MSA log booked cars get transferred onto the passport system?
I have rung Motorsport UK today and they were not able to really tell me, and said to contact my local scruit, which i have also done, but not heard back as of yet.
Anyway the current MSA logbook will run out 31st dec 2020, so I need to get a new passport for the car. Is this just a straight transfer of the current logbook to a passport and get the scruit to sign it off and send it in? or does its spec need updating to the current regs?
I know I'll have to sort the fire extinguishers out but the scruit can just say it needs compliant seats and harnesses it does not actually need them in at the time the passport is applied for it just needs to be ready for them (according to the scruit passport guidance notes)
The car was originally logbooked in 1996 and was compliant then, it wont be now as I think the fixings and ROPS dia has changed since then. So how do historic MSA log booked cars get transferred onto the passport system?
I have rung Motorsport UK today and they were not able to really tell me, and said to contact my local scruit, which i have also done, but not heard back as of yet.
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