Sprint/Hillclimb in a roadgoing class.

[eastlmark]

stevieturbo said:

eastlmark said:

Often hear this nonsense about Sports Libra.... blue book states max height of 90cm! Pretty sure a Marna or anything with a roof wont comply.

Plenty of saloon cars in sports libre, so no idea where you're seeing a 90cm rule.

But the engine change rules that force otherwise normal cars into libre etc are nonsensical. As others say, Javelin seem to be far more accommodating to bringing new people into motorsport like this compared to MSUK.

S 14.1 if you ever bothered to read it.

[df76]

eastlmark said:

stevieturbo said:

eastlmark said:

Often hear this nonsense about Sports Libra.... blue book states max height of 90cm! Pretty sure a Marna or anything with a roof wont comply.

Plenty of saloon cars in sports libre, so no idea where you're seeing a 90cm rule.

But the engine change rules that force otherwise normal cars into libre etc are nonsensical. As others say, Javelin seem to be far more accommodating to bringing new people into motorsport like this compared to MSUK.

S 14.1 if you ever bothered to read it.

Only section b refers to the 90cm rule for hillclimb super sports chassis. There is also section a, c and d for other vehicle types and the height rule is completely irrelevant.

[stevieturbo]

eastlmark said:

S 14.1 if you ever bothered to read it.

https://www.specsavers.co.uk/

[meehaja]

It’s tricky, I’m not competitive in my class (not a good driver, plus 200bhp less than the others in my class). I do wonder if MSUK would do well to have a “beginners class” where anything road legal could be run, but maybe with no official timing, and only once per season or similar?

As for your issue, I’d suggest doing a hillclimb school day. I’ve only done Harewood, but I know other venues do it. You get plenty of runs, some tuition, can do it in any safe car, don’t need overalls/gloves , licenses etc. Just a good day out on the track.

[Bengunn]

meehaja said:

It’s tricky, I’m not competitive in my class (not a good driver, plus 200bhp less than the others in my class). I do wonder if MSUK would do well to have a “beginners class” where anything road legal could be run, but maybe with no official timing, and only once per season or similar?

As for your issue, I’d suggest doing a hillclimb school day. I’ve only done Harewood, but I know other venues do it. You get plenty of runs, some tuition, can do it in any safe car, don’t need overalls/gloves , licenses etc. Just a good day out on the track.

Thanks for the reply. It's more about getting out in this specific car for me. I race with 750mc throughout the year in another car but really would like to get this classic old girl up a hillclimb.

[K4TRV]

I reckon to "get the old girl up a hillclimb....." you would do best to invest in a B series engine, then all your problems will be with the nut behind the wheel and not arguing with Scrutineers and MSA Blue-book anoraks?

[blackscooby]

If it's road going could you not get it in Regulations for Roadgoing Specialist Production Cars

It would fail on the conditions for Road going production, but from my possibly blinkered understanding it would pass the requirements for Road-Going Specialist Production.

in 11.5.2 it doesn't specify that the block and head must be identifiable as fitted to that model. It just says that it has to be a production engine which the Pinto is.

Engines
11.5.1. For Road-Going Series Production Cars, the
cylinder block and cylinder head must remain in the
original position and be externally identifiable as that
fitted to the original model or specified option.
Induction is free, as are exhaust systems.
11.5.2. For Road-Going Specialist Production Cars, the
cylinder block and head must be of a make and type
produced in at least 1,000 identical units originally
available through the normal commercial channels of a
land vehicle manufacturer.


I've got a query with MUK pending regarding a fully road going MK1 Escort fitted with a NA Cosworth instead of the Pinto unit. It sounds similar in a nature. I'll post the outcome.

Edited by blackscooby on Monday 12th August 15:01

[df76]

blackscooby said:

If it's road going could you not get it in Regulations for Roadgoing Specialist Production Cars

It would fail on the conditions for Road going production, but from my possibly blinkered understanding it would pass the requirements for Road-Going Specialist Production.

in 11.5.2 it doesn't specify that the block and head must be identifiable as fitted to that model. It just says that it has to be a production engine which the Pinto is.

Engines
11.5.1. For Road-Going Series Production Cars, the
cylinder block and cylinder head must remain in the
original position and be externally identifiable as that
fitted to the original model or specified option.
Induction is free, as are exhaust systems.
11.5.2. For Road-Going Specialist Production Cars, the
cylinder block and head must be of a make and type
produced in at least 1,000 identical units originally
available through the normal commercial channels of a
land vehicle manufacturer.


I've got a query with MUK pending regarding a fully road going MK1 Escort fitted with a NA Cosworth instead of the Pinto unit. It sounds similar in a nature. I'll post the outcome.

Edited by blackscooby on Monday 12th August 15:01

That'll be interesting, let us know how it goes. I agree with you, but it's never been interpreted that way.

[stevieturbo]

The rules are difficult.

I could never find anyone suggesting an engine swap would be anything but libre...that said, there are loads of MK2's with various engines that are not in Libre and not using original, or same make as their car engines. Although they would be same cylinders etc.
So it does all seem a bit blurred.

I have a V8 in my car, which dumped me into Libre. Which is daft when it is a road used and road legal car, although the road legal, and used in road legal format aspect does carry some dispensations within MSUK.

[Truckosaurus]

stevieturbo said:

...So it does all seem a bit blurred...

Indeed. Which is why I think there's a need for 'power to weight' classes like the Classic Marques club, it allows a decent variety of entries without the need for concours level of checking the cars are as manufactured.

[Galveston]

Today MUK have published some proposals for new regs for speed events, one of which relaxes the requirement for the original engine block in modified classes.

https://www.motorsportuk.org/The-Sport/Regulations...

Guess this would come in next year if approved.

Edited by Galveston on Tuesday 13th August 19:57

[blackscooby]

I'm the entries secretary for our local motor club and you think I should know this, but it's a ruling nightmare. It appears after speaking to a couple of other clubs there are ways and means to get cars in with different engines bypassing the need to go into the dreaded Sports Libra.

One club I'm aware of allows Road Legal cars with different engines (ie Peugeot 205's with Mi16's and Escort MK1 / MK2's with Vauxhall RedTops) into the Rally Car class which appears to be a bit of a Sports Libra category of road going classes.

I'm also aware of a very quick Escort at Harewood that enters into "Modified Series Production Cars over 2000cc" and it is reportedly fitted with a Millington 2.6L engine.

It appears there could be ways and means to avoid Sports Libra.

@Galveston - Thanks I'll have a read. Sounds promising.

Edited by blackscooby on Wednesday 14th August 10:25

[blackscooby]

<insert swearing here>

Sports Libre presents us with a whole st load of issues to meet the requirements for such. Dated belts, FHR, caged to meet Sports Libra specifications.


This is for a MK1 bubble arched Escort (Road Registered) fitted with Cosworth Normally aspirated 2000CC 16v.

Response from Scruitineer
The classification remains as Sports Libre as originally advised.

This car being a Ford Escort Mk1 qualifies as a Roadgoing Series Production Car per S11.1.1 as the model was produced in quantities greater than 1000 per annum.
Therefore in accordance with S11.1.2 it cannot be considered a Roadgoing Specialist Production car, per the part of the definition highlighted.
11.1.2. Road-Going Specialist Production Cars – Cars with a minimum annual production of 20 Chassis which do not qualify as Road-Going Series Production Cars.
Roadgoing specialist production is for low volume cars / kit cars etc. with chassis production numbers between 20-1000.

Bugger.....

Edited by blackscooby on Wednesday 14th August 16:45

[Bengunn]

It's a shame the Clasdic Marques won't have me either as the Marina isn't a "sports car". Though I'm sure if it was a mk2 escort 1600 sport which was a direct competitor to the Marina 1800t/c it would be a different story. It's looking very unlikely I'll be using this car in anger anywhere.

[Norfolkandchance]

As has been mentioned, I think Javelin would be worth contacting.

When I looked at them several years ago there was the implication that classes were not strictly defined and that there was a degree of organiser flexibility. Having said that, I also got the impression that they liked engine swaps to be from the same manufacturer.

[Norfolkandchance]

The rules are proposed to change for 2020, making engine changes slightly easier. So might be worth waiting.