MSUK licence now mandatory for all events

MSUK licence now mandatory for all events

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Discussion

Allan L

567 posts

63 months

Saturday 9th November 2019
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velocemitch said:
We all know this is insurance driven, but as is not exactly unusual for MSUk, their response is out of proportion. A flat increase of the same figure on every permit seems like a pretty silly approach to the problem. Especially when it is quite obvious that will hit the low budget side of the sport hardest. It’s also pretty obvious that those types of event are the least likely to end up with a large claim!.
There was a time when the folk who controlled UK's motorsport were current participants, or retired from participating in the sport they controlled. Some decades ago when negotiating about the number of starters permitted for handicap races at Club Silverstone it was obvious that the RAC-MSA chap I was talking to didn't know what handicap racing was. Foolishly I asked him which motor sport discipline he was from, only to be told they were not allowed to be involved as it might result in unfair bias!

I suspect the current licence idea is insurance-driven because the person who negotiated the insurance did so without enough understanding of the lower tiers of our sport, so got a deal that could, if we are not careful, wreck a lot of what we do.

However, those who advocate cutting loose from RAC-MSA (t/a MSUk) must arrange suitable insurance somehow and that would be too expensive to make financial sense. As for the potential for a large claim from a low level event, we used to cite an accident at an un-marshalled level crossing which derailed an express train travelling at speed. Still relevant I think.

Kraken

1,534 posts

158 months

Saturday 9th November 2019
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DelicaL400 said:
Because if 8 million folk apply for the free licence then there'll either be a charge for it the year after or clubs will get shafted even more on fees. MSUK do nowt for free.
Go and form your own motor racing association then if you think everyone else is in it just to shaft you. The changes MSUK have made in the last year and the new changes have and will save me a large amount of money.

carl_w

6,475 posts

216 months

Saturday 9th November 2019
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Allan L said:
However, those who advocate cutting loose from RAC-MSA (t/a MSUk) must arrange suitable insurance somehow and that would be too expensive to make financial sense.
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?

Drumroll

2,374 posts

78 months

Sunday 10th November 2019
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carl_w said:
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?
True, but I bet you would struggle to get insurance for auto tests etc that tend to use car parks etc as cheaply as MUK do.

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,018 posts

178 months

Sunday 10th November 2019
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Drumroll said:
carl_w said:
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?
True, but I bet you would struggle to get insurance for auto tests etc that tend to use car parks etc as cheaply as MUK do.
I think the other barrier to alternative organisations setting up is related to the road traffic act.
When the extended the act to give the powers to prosecute drivers speeding on private land etc such as car parks ( from the time when the Cruze meets got popular) certain organisations were granted permission to allow them to voided for the purpose of motorsport. MSA obviously did, but I’m told so did the Land Rover club. They are now talking about breaking away from MSUk to run their comp safari’s and Hill Rallies etc outside of MSUK.

Not sure how Javelin do it, but expect as they usually use a licensed motorsport facility it’s not a problem.

df76

2,540 posts

236 months

Sunday 10th November 2019
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Bet that javelin provide competitors with zero public liability cover. It’ll be in the small print when you sign on for the day.

Bricol

140 posts

125 months

Monday 11th November 2019
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This is interesting:

http://www.iopd.org.uk/

At the bottom of the page is a list of organisations allowed to issue permits for events to run. might well be worth checking the cost of joining and for permits for club events.

For smaller clubs, the effect of the adding a fiver to an 8 quid entry fee will mean potential newcomers may well decide to pass.

If the MSA (or whatever they have expensively rebranded as this week) is serious about promoting grassroots motorsport, then subsidising those grassroots clubs from the a tiny percentage addition to higher cost events would have made more sense.

Drumroll

2,374 posts

78 months

Monday 11th November 2019
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Bricol said:
This is interesting:

http://www.iopd.org.uk/

At the bottom of the page is a list of organisations allowed to issue permits for events to run. might well be worth checking the cost of joining and for permits for club events.

For smaller clubs, the effect of the adding a fiver to an 8 quid entry fee will mean potential newcomers may well decide to pass.

If the MSA (or whatever they have expensively rebranded as this week) is serious about promoting grassroots motorsport, then subsidising those grassroots clubs from the a tiny percentage addition to higher cost events would have made more sense.
Yes it may be possible to do that, but not convinced it would work out cheaper. For a start you would have to write your own regulations etc. Whilst you may be able to get that all important insurance, will it give you the same cover the MUK one does? Will it provide sickness cover for marshals etc. More importantly how much protection will the organising group get in terms of personal liability if things go wrong?
You talk about promoting grass roots sport but if you moved away from MUK where is the progression?

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,018 posts

178 months

Monday 11th November 2019
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As I mentioned the Land Rover club are on the list and they are big enough and specialist enough to run on their own, so I think that will happen. The Motor Cycle clubs are already separate and go their own way. The Traction engine club might be a bit of stretch.... Bear in mind also anything being run on the public road, even non competitive links like Targa and Stage rallying can only be organised by MSUK as they are the only one allowed under the old RTA from decades ago.

I do think MSUK should keep the grass roots side and my feeling is its all about balance, they have applied extra costs evenly rather than proportionately and few of the savings like other areas might be seeing apply.

Wingo

241 posts

129 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
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IOPD "authorise" non MUK events like the Javelin sprint series. Not sure what "Indikarting" do in terms of insurance cover.

I'm also seeing reports of all MUK licences going up in price, apparently every licence has gone up by around 50%
except for the Clubman RS which is now free

E.g. Stage National B from £64 to £99, Stage National A from £105 to £155, Across the board for Speed, Race, etc


Dynion Araf Uchaf

2,577 posts

181 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
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I've just picked up my application form, and it is true prices up by £50. Overall I'll probably save money as I don't have to have a medical, but it's not quite as transparent as MUK are making out.

MUK website is down so I can't even access my membership benefits, as I now need an eye test, although not sure if this is annual or not.

df76

2,540 posts

236 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
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Dynion Araf Uchaf said:
I've just picked up my application form, and it is true prices up by £50. Overall I'll probably save money as I don't have to have a medical, but it's not quite as transparent as MUK are making out.

MUK website is down so I can't even access my membership benefits, as I now need an eye test, although not sure if this is annual or not.
There's an explanation at the end of Section 3. Eye test requirements depend on your age. If you've provided a medical within the last 36 months you won't need one (up to the age of 60, and then it changes again)

300bhp/ton

39,035 posts

148 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
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velocemitch said:
So this is a new one from MSUK in their effort to help Grass Roots motorsport they have now decided you can no longer enter club level events on production of a club membership card alone. All will need to hold a an MSUK 'Clubmans RS' licence, even those who are non competing passengers.

The new licence will be free, but in my view its still going to put many off.

Just to add insult to injury the permit fees are going up a flat rate of £5.00 all round too, which is quite a chunk, for instance each entry on a Car trial in 2019 paid £4.85, next year it rises to £9.85.

So this is all a good idea how then Mr Chambers?????
Also consider that "free" main entail an admin charge at some point too wink

The fees will add up to significant amounts more money heading to M-SUK when you factor it across all the entrants. And basically for nothing in return, at least as far as I can tell.


HOWEVER.......


It is worth noting that MSUK are only one of 11 or 12 authorising bodies in the UK. So there are other ways of doing motorsport without actually involving them. I would urge other grass roots clubs to go and look at and consider other options before kowtowing down the the new demands.

300bhp/ton

39,035 posts

148 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
quotequote all
Drumroll said:
carl_w said:
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?
True, but I bet you would struggle to get insurance for auto tests etc that tend to use car parks etc as cheaply as MUK do.
I understand there are already companies/underwriters offering such insurance for the non MSUK events anyhow.

andy97

3,995 posts

180 months

Tuesday 19th November 2019
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Given the injury insurance cover that you get with the licence, I still don’t think it is a bad price. Presumably the race and rally licence fee increases pay for bringing the free clubman licence holders in to the insurance scheme.

By way of comparison I recently tried to get critical injury cover and I was quoted over £70 per month and injuries caused by motorsport were excluded.

300bhp/ton

39,035 posts

148 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
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andy97 said:
Given the injury insurance cover that you get with the licence, I still don’t think it is a bad price. Presumably the race and rally licence fee increases pay for bringing the free clubman licence holders in to the insurance scheme.

By way of comparison I recently tried to get critical injury cover and I was quoted over £70 per month and injuries caused by motorsport were excluded.
People were covered previously, hence why you need to be a club member......

The price increases are quite well hidden really, but can amount to a large total. For the club I am a member of, the increases going to MSUK will amount to almost 50% more money than this year, for the same number of entrants and for little or no additional gain for them.

Now consider we are talking tens of thousands of pounds too. And this is from just one club. For the entire MSUK entrant list this must be generating hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of pounds more money for the MSUK, who are in return delivering nothing extra for it.

And lets not forget, this is only the introduction period. How would you feel if your free licence required a £25 admin fee to renew it each year?

As for the insurance, trust me. It can be done. The Motorcycle clubs already do it! And they are generally far more risky, as they are at high risk of falling off and high risk of spectators being involved in accidents with runaway bikes.

Kraken

1,534 posts

158 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
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300bhp/ton said:
Now consider we are talking tens of thousands of pounds too. And this is from just one club. For the entire MSUK entrant list this must be generating hundreds of thousands or maybe millions of pounds more money for the MSUK, who are in return delivering nothing extra for it.
Nothing extra for it? I take it you don't read the MSUK newsletters then?

300bhp/ton

39,035 posts

148 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
Kraken said:
Nothing extra for it? I take it you don't read the MSUK newsletters then?
Ok, enlighten me. What will I be getting extra?

Drumroll

2,374 posts

78 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
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300bhp/ton said:
Drumroll said:
carl_w said:
Yet Javelin seem to make it work with their Sprint Series. Presumably they also have suitable insurance?
True, but I bet you would struggle to get insurance for auto tests etc that tend to use car parks etc as cheaply as MUK do.
I understand there are already companies/underwriters offering such insurance for the non MSUK events anyhow.
Never said you couldn't get insurance, just that
I doubt you will get the cover you get with MUK at a cheaper price.

velocemitch

Original Poster:

3,018 posts

178 months

Wednesday 20th November 2019
quotequote all
300bhp/ton said:
Kraken said:
Nothing extra for it? I take it you don't read the MSUK newsletters then?
Ok, enlighten me. What will I be getting extra?
Go on then Kraken, what are we getting?

A few discounts at places we normally get discounts from anyway, insurance cover on RS licences that we already had with a club card, increased value on those insurances agreed, but for the vast majority this will not become relevant as they will never claim. Some officials wont have to pay for their licences, but those at grass roots level never did anyway.

I think my own personal costs to compete this year will probably rise by about £100.00 in direct fees to MSUK. I can live with it, but I probably sped about £1500.00 already, so its not a massive hike. The problem as i see it is there are many people at club level who probably only spend about £100.00 a year currently, they will likely face a similar rise, so in effect it will double their costs, plus they will have to apply for a licence.