Kurt Dobson in the Silver State Challenge today?
Discussion
Airsix - I've tried the usual link through the owners web site but the link is down at the moment. I have also had a quick look at the events website ...
www.silverstateclassic.com
But could not find any mention of the Ultima (Still I didn't look to hard)
I've posted a request on the owners web site for any more info ....... which I'll forward if any is forth comming.
Paul
www.silverstateclassic.com
But could not find any mention of the Ultima (Still I didn't look to hard)
I've posted a request on the owners web site for any more info ....... which I'll forward if any is forth comming.
Paul
I put together the first Ultima GTR with a twin-turbo dry-sump smallblock race (chev) engine in 2001. Ultima delivered a complete rolling chassis, and I did the engine development (I was developing NASCAR engines at the time). It had cockpit adjustable boost up to 14psi, allowing horsepower adjustment from about 660hp to 1450 hp. At that time in the USA there were about 5 cars, mostly incomplete projects, but also K&N Filter company had one they were putting together for road racing in the Rolex 24 Hour. I campaigned my car primarily in SCCA, NASA and Regional Road Racing events (like the Porsche, BMW, Ferrari, Corvette, Viper club racing). The car was simply unbeatable on the track and it rarely took more than 600-700hp to blow away anything else on the track. I eventually sold the car to a collector in Houston, Tx and understand the car is still on display somewhere. There is also an outstanding bet with Ferrari to run anything they can build against this car, still no takers. I volunteered to be the driver anytime/anywhere.
As part of my engine development (and my work for Hendrick Motorsports) I developed a software program that automatically designs headers. Subsequently, I designed and built many of the header and exhaust solutions for Ultima builders, mostly here in the US.
Just a note on reality: I thought I could build a GTR my way for about $125k, and I was in a hurry so a lot of the cost was to have Ultima provide a fully built rolling chassis. I ended up spending about $322k in parts alone, and a full year of my time on the car, and after that another 6 months in dyno and track testing to sort out the car, not to mention another $1m on on software development, but I ended up with a business designing headers for NASCAR and F1 using the software.
A few notes on the Ultima chassis: It is designed for glass-smooth tracks typically found in Europe. In the US and especially on high-speed tracks, the steering geometry has way too much bump-steer and can be dangerous if you don't get it right. The other thing I learned attempting to run the car in the Silver State Challenge (open road race), was that at 195-247mph the steering ratio was way to quick, again dangerous, but you can buy steering reduction pieces. At the time, I knew a lot more about engine development than chassis development. I learned a lot about aerodynamics as well, even though Ultima had wind-tunnel data at the time on the chassis as well as the front-splitter and wing settings.
Things I can pass along that were my most expensive lessons:
a) Decide first whether you want a race-car or something you can drive on the street. They are two completely different problems and experiences. A fire-breathing 1450hp racecar with air conditioning that will never be street legal is a waste of time.
b) At the time of my build, the Ultima had two 9 gallon tanks; not much for a race car that would be getting 3-5mpg in a road-race. The factory tanks have foam in them, but they are not PCA or SCCA approved and it cost a fortune for me to have real fuel cells designed and made.
c) Ultima Chassis and Roll Cage: FIA certification for Europe does not meet US track safety requirements. Side impact bars are not in the design. The tubing sizes for FIA are too small and thinner than US requirements. This was a bummer for me because my chassis was built, fully powder coated and I had to start over.
d) Buy an engine that has already been developed and used in the Ultima. Make sure you can buy all the pieces like headers, exhaust, etc. Otherwise you'll spend a fortune... Henry Ford was right... don't build 1 of anything.
e) Don't think you can drop 1000+ hp in front of a Porsche, Quaife, or Hewland gearbox without thinking about what will break. None of these transmissions will handle more than 650 ft/lbs or torque. Torque is the twisting force that breaks things. I spent a lot of money working with Dave Crower (Crower Cams) to develop a reciprocating assembly that would turn at 10,000 rpm's so we could develop the required HP without exceeding the transmission capabilities. The engine was a short-stroke 310 cubic inch. Also manual transmissions are ~90% efficient. This means that if you're running 1000hp, 100hp of heat or about 75 killowatts of heat are generated. I had Patrick Motorsports blue-print a Porsche G-50 six-speed box with pressurized lubrication and external cooler.
f) If you think you want big horsepower please understand this is a road-race chassis, not a drag race chassis. The car is light, RWD and acceleration is completely traction limited. Launch control at the time was a dream, not a reality. I took the car to a Utah drag race track once just to see what would happen. All I could do was feather the gas until about 115mph in 3rd gear at which point the wing-made enough downforce to couple to 1400+ horsepower. The car still did a 9 second quarter mile at 170mph on Pirelli street tires, and I still had two more gears to go; the crowd was shocked as I was running against a Willy's Gasser that was 30 car lengths ahead of me in the first 1/2 of the track. I passed him like he was standing still at the 1/4 mile mark. After the run, a Bonneville race official stopped in the pits to take a look at the car. I showed him around and he said "where's your parachute'. I showed him the 15-inch brakes and he said it didn't matter; anything over 150mph trap speed needed a parachute. I told him that was rediculous, but he clarified this by stating that the race track couldn't insure an event without all the cars conforming to 'all' the safety requirements. Well, I only went drag racing one time. I did make a quick-pin detachable parachute, but it was to run in the Silver State Classic Event where we expected to run at an average speed of around 230mph. A friend of mine racing a Porsche Twin-turbo died of injuries that year in the Silver State Classic, so we only did a test run (very scary).
g) The Ultima is lightweight and that's a lot better than too much horsepower. 600HP in this chassis will scare the HE#)*LL out of you and outrun anything you can find.
Happy to answer any questions. This project was my best racing experience of my life and I wouldn't change anything. Learned a lot, had fun racing the car. Ted Marlow and the Ultima guys were great to work with and very helpful in ensuring my project was safe.
Kurt Dobson
Salt Lake City, UT
As part of my engine development (and my work for Hendrick Motorsports) I developed a software program that automatically designs headers. Subsequently, I designed and built many of the header and exhaust solutions for Ultima builders, mostly here in the US.
Just a note on reality: I thought I could build a GTR my way for about $125k, and I was in a hurry so a lot of the cost was to have Ultima provide a fully built rolling chassis. I ended up spending about $322k in parts alone, and a full year of my time on the car, and after that another 6 months in dyno and track testing to sort out the car, not to mention another $1m on on software development, but I ended up with a business designing headers for NASCAR and F1 using the software.
A few notes on the Ultima chassis: It is designed for glass-smooth tracks typically found in Europe. In the US and especially on high-speed tracks, the steering geometry has way too much bump-steer and can be dangerous if you don't get it right. The other thing I learned attempting to run the car in the Silver State Challenge (open road race), was that at 195-247mph the steering ratio was way to quick, again dangerous, but you can buy steering reduction pieces. At the time, I knew a lot more about engine development than chassis development. I learned a lot about aerodynamics as well, even though Ultima had wind-tunnel data at the time on the chassis as well as the front-splitter and wing settings.
Things I can pass along that were my most expensive lessons:
a) Decide first whether you want a race-car or something you can drive on the street. They are two completely different problems and experiences. A fire-breathing 1450hp racecar with air conditioning that will never be street legal is a waste of time.
b) At the time of my build, the Ultima had two 9 gallon tanks; not much for a race car that would be getting 3-5mpg in a road-race. The factory tanks have foam in them, but they are not PCA or SCCA approved and it cost a fortune for me to have real fuel cells designed and made.
c) Ultima Chassis and Roll Cage: FIA certification for Europe does not meet US track safety requirements. Side impact bars are not in the design. The tubing sizes for FIA are too small and thinner than US requirements. This was a bummer for me because my chassis was built, fully powder coated and I had to start over.
d) Buy an engine that has already been developed and used in the Ultima. Make sure you can buy all the pieces like headers, exhaust, etc. Otherwise you'll spend a fortune... Henry Ford was right... don't build 1 of anything.
e) Don't think you can drop 1000+ hp in front of a Porsche, Quaife, or Hewland gearbox without thinking about what will break. None of these transmissions will handle more than 650 ft/lbs or torque. Torque is the twisting force that breaks things. I spent a lot of money working with Dave Crower (Crower Cams) to develop a reciprocating assembly that would turn at 10,000 rpm's so we could develop the required HP without exceeding the transmission capabilities. The engine was a short-stroke 310 cubic inch. Also manual transmissions are ~90% efficient. This means that if you're running 1000hp, 100hp of heat or about 75 killowatts of heat are generated. I had Patrick Motorsports blue-print a Porsche G-50 six-speed box with pressurized lubrication and external cooler.
f) If you think you want big horsepower please understand this is a road-race chassis, not a drag race chassis. The car is light, RWD and acceleration is completely traction limited. Launch control at the time was a dream, not a reality. I took the car to a Utah drag race track once just to see what would happen. All I could do was feather the gas until about 115mph in 3rd gear at which point the wing-made enough downforce to couple to 1400+ horsepower. The car still did a 9 second quarter mile at 170mph on Pirelli street tires, and I still had two more gears to go; the crowd was shocked as I was running against a Willy's Gasser that was 30 car lengths ahead of me in the first 1/2 of the track. I passed him like he was standing still at the 1/4 mile mark. After the run, a Bonneville race official stopped in the pits to take a look at the car. I showed him around and he said "where's your parachute'. I showed him the 15-inch brakes and he said it didn't matter; anything over 150mph trap speed needed a parachute. I told him that was rediculous, but he clarified this by stating that the race track couldn't insure an event without all the cars conforming to 'all' the safety requirements. Well, I only went drag racing one time. I did make a quick-pin detachable parachute, but it was to run in the Silver State Classic Event where we expected to run at an average speed of around 230mph. A friend of mine racing a Porsche Twin-turbo died of injuries that year in the Silver State Classic, so we only did a test run (very scary).
g) The Ultima is lightweight and that's a lot better than too much horsepower. 600HP in this chassis will scare the HE#)*LL out of you and outrun anything you can find.
Happy to answer any questions. This project was my best racing experience of my life and I wouldn't change anything. Learned a lot, had fun racing the car. Ted Marlow and the Ultima guys were great to work with and very helpful in ensuring my project was safe.
Kurt Dobson
Salt Lake City, UT
xrtim said:
Amazing amount of information, I couldn’t find much information about going twin turbo. I’ve been going down this route for a while now. Thanks for sharing
Tim
Not surprisingly, going twin turbo does take some time, here are a couple of pics of mine, only taken 18 months to get this close to road ready.Tim
Thevet said:
Not surprisingly, going twin turbo does take some time, here are a couple of pics of mine, only taken 18 months to get this close to road ready.
Very nice, mines 4 times longer than you and looks like you are further ahead. Like the exhaust wrap you have used, picture of mine a couple of years ago when I got the engine running for the first time, charge coolers plumbing, methanol injection been added after picture. Haven’t taken any pictures for a while. I’m saving for the RS pack so may be a while before I go much further.Regards Tim
Hi Stuart, glad you're still in the running so to speak, your creation is getting there, turbos are GT35's not too big but still needing plenty of ability to drop boost as aim is under 10psi. Still moving bits and pieces around, water-meth had to be shifted today in order to accomodate heat exchanger, hopefully the RS roof scoop will be used to send cool air to the exchanger via a duct to be added to the rear clam. Off to mapping next week, but sadly I have had to cancel trip to ring, can't risk having to quaratine for 2 weeks if France and Belgium stay on the hit list. Hope you can post pics of ongoing build as it happens.
xrtim said:
Very nice, mines 4 times longer than you and looks like you are further ahead. Like the exhaust wrap you have used, picture of mine a couple of years ago when I got the engine running for the first time, charge coolers plumbing, methanol injection been added after picture. Haven’t taken any pictures for a while. I’m saving for the RS pack so may be a while before I go much further.
Regards Tim
The exhaust wrap is from a very helpful bunch called Thermo-Met, and claims of up to 80% reduction in heat transfer, always useful under the back of a GTR rear clam. Cost just under £1500 and will outlast and out perform ceramic coat by a big margin. more pics please Regards Tim
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