Ultima Turbo install - tips - lessons learned
Discussion
Not to be an ass but ive got a tip......... don't do it. I will start the thread on the reasons not to do it and Im sure others will follow with even better reasons
It adds weight in the wrong place up high and in the back
it ads heat to the under bonnet area
it adds huge complexity to servicing the car
Bob Woods does 200+ during the Silver State race how fast did you want to go
If you look at Ultimas times on the 0 to 100 to 0 the addition of horse power is a declining return on investment
an almost stock LS7 will give you near 600 hp
It adds weight in the wrong place up high and in the back
it ads heat to the under bonnet area
it adds huge complexity to servicing the car
Bob Woods does 200+ during the Silver State race how fast did you want to go
If you look at Ultimas times on the 0 to 100 to 0 the addition of horse power is a declining return on investment
an almost stock LS7 will give you near 600 hp
Im not sure I would want a boosted Ultima, but I am friends with someone who has a 7.0 twin turbo V8 Ult.
My concern is the non linear torque curve and a most sensible power outputs can be achieved by NA or superchargers. Turbos come into their own for high power application of course.
Regardless of the above, the biggest problem is by far heat management, when you have intercoolers to package and all your cooling options in it gets pretty tight. The person In question still has heat issues and the latest purchase should solve it which is a thermostatic less centrifugal electric water pump which is electrically controlled.
So its technically possible. I also know a chap who build a V8 Bi turbo Audi RS6 engine Ultima.
It really depends on what the purpose of the car is.... its pretty easy to get the back end out/spin on track nearing the limits even with a nice flat torque curve; so having a couple of turbos changing that depending on pressure ratios might be a little too.... 'fun' !
If you want it to be a technical show piece or straight line racer, or a good card in Pub car top trumps... I can see the logic. Having said that my friend has done way more track days and in far more interesting places than I! So its clearly possible!
My concern is the non linear torque curve and a most sensible power outputs can be achieved by NA or superchargers. Turbos come into their own for high power application of course.
Regardless of the above, the biggest problem is by far heat management, when you have intercoolers to package and all your cooling options in it gets pretty tight. The person In question still has heat issues and the latest purchase should solve it which is a thermostatic less centrifugal electric water pump which is electrically controlled.
So its technically possible. I also know a chap who build a V8 Bi turbo Audi RS6 engine Ultima.
It really depends on what the purpose of the car is.... its pretty easy to get the back end out/spin on track nearing the limits even with a nice flat torque curve; so having a couple of turbos changing that depending on pressure ratios might be a little too.... 'fun' !
If you want it to be a technical show piece or straight line racer, or a good card in Pub car top trumps... I can see the logic. Having said that my friend has done way more track days and in far more interesting places than I! So its clearly possible!
Edited by confusionhunter on Monday 19th June 20:47
Evolution-ism said:
My Idea was to do a destroked LSX with low boost (under 8 psi) to keep the heat and power down, and was thinking of using the LSX iron block (100 extra pounds of weight). BUT I do value all opinions on this subject, so keep them coming!!!!
I don't own an Ultima but I am a fan. We on the HSV/Monaro scene have been tinkering with various combinations for some time (about the past decade) from LS1s to twin turbo LSX combinations. Best bang per buck by far is the factory supercharged LSA engine. It's essentially an LS9 with a smaller supercharger but with nothing more than a new cam and a pulley change, will make a reliable 800hp. You can swap the top supercharger cover with that of an LS9 to keep the height of the engine down too. No turbo lag, flat torque curve and lots of power all the way to 7k rpm.Just to add, I wouldn't bother with the extra weight of the iron block as the alloy ones are good for 1000hp. As for power, one guy in our forum had a 1300hp twin turbo LSX 427 engine. Even he admitted it was like driving on ice when it was bone dry and truly terrifying!!
Edited by anonymous-user on Monday 19th June 21:46
Evolution-ism said:
My Idea was to do a destroked LSX with low boost (under 8 psi) to keep the heat and power down, and was thinking of using the LSX iron block (100 extra pounds of weight). BUT I do value all opinions on this subject, so keep them coming!!!!
I have an LSX block supercharged (Procharger) so the delivery is higher up the rev range compared to a Whipple for instance,If I were building this car from scratch now, I'd have a standard LS3 block, the LSX is capable of taking 2500 Horse and IMO is OTT for this application.
A Normally Aspirated LS based Ultima will have enough torque to break traction without breaking a sweat,
You really don't need the low down torque in a circa 1000 kg car.
Finally,
I cut the boost on my car to 1-2 PSI as I found the power was detracting from the enjoyment, it is now around 550 RW horsepower on a proper Dyno
F.C. really nailed it I think. Usability and enjoyment. How usable is a car that drinks fuel so fast you have a range of 100-150 miles? How enjoyable is a car you need to treat the gas pedal like a landmine? Not to mention ancillary problems that come with excessive hp; broken stub axles, broken axles, stripped gears, bent suspension mounts, and over heating just to get started.
I'm building my car with the aim of putting 600-650hp to the wheels, and in a 2100lb car that is more than enough. 3.5lbs/hp is nothing to sneeze at, and it will terrify 99.9% of the drivers out there.
Will
I'm building my car with the aim of putting 600-650hp to the wheels, and in a 2100lb car that is more than enough. 3.5lbs/hp is nothing to sneeze at, and it will terrify 99.9% of the drivers out there.
Will
Going back to a TT ultima I imagine heat will be a major issue. I built an engine (6.3) for a mid engined race car. On the chassis dyno it was making 850 hp and 1000 nm's tq at 4000 rpm @ .6 psi but the dyno wasn't coping to well. The car wasn't having engine cooling issues and they maybe should have found a bigger dyno to allow them to do the full map.
Subsequent testing/mapping on the track with the hood off has been frustrating for them but hopefully they'll have sorted it by now. They're using the radiators from the Bentley Le Mans car and are were last thinking of redesigning the ducting and even the diffusers etc.
For a road car just 5 psi would be awsome imo.
Subsequent testing/mapping on the track with the hood off has been frustrating for them but hopefully they'll have sorted it by now. They're using the radiators from the Bentley Le Mans car and are were last thinking of redesigning the ducting and even the diffusers etc.
For a road car just 5 psi would be awsome imo.
I'm building a twin turbo ultima (engine spec is sorted and final bit of machining is being done as I type before engine is off to balancers), using the iron block 4.8, The biggest problems that I have encountered are that everything becomes a custom part and you have to get creative with the space you haven't got. There are lots of solutions to the problems that have been aired above, lots of information is available on the internet once you have trawled through all the miss information available.
If you have the skills or want to learn how to make custom parts and plan where and why they should be positioned in your build, this will be the project for you.
if you want to build an Ultima, and enjoy bolting things together in a set way and quickly have a finished car that you enjoy without to many headaches then don't do it
Many times I have looked at my rolling chassis and thought, that could have been finished by now and I could be out on the road enjoying it but when I look at what I have built that all disappears.
Picture is from engine mock up a while ago, all stripped out now and next time engine goes back in it should be running
Regards Tim
If you have the skills or want to learn how to make custom parts and plan where and why they should be positioned in your build, this will be the project for you.
if you want to build an Ultima, and enjoy bolting things together in a set way and quickly have a finished car that you enjoy without to many headaches then don't do it
Many times I have looked at my rolling chassis and thought, that could have been finished by now and I could be out on the road enjoying it but when I look at what I have built that all disappears.
Picture is from engine mock up a while ago, all stripped out now and next time engine goes back in it should be running
Regards Tim
Or you can buy one of these with OE reliability for $11k all in:
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrai...
Unlike the LS3, this is built for boost including rotocast heads, piston oil squirters to dissapate heat from the piston skirts and a forged crank. When you factor in the cost of a supercharger, pulleys and fabrication, it looks like great value.
I have a Ligenfelter GT9 cam in mine and torque peaks at around 550lbs across the rpm range 2k-7k whilst it makes just over 800hp. It's a nice, rev happy and reliable combination.
This of course assumes you need FI
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrai...
Unlike the LS3, this is built for boost including rotocast heads, piston oil squirters to dissapate heat from the piston skirts and a forged crank. When you factor in the cost of a supercharger, pulleys and fabrication, it looks like great value.
I have a Ligenfelter GT9 cam in mine and torque peaks at around 550lbs across the rpm range 2k-7k whilst it makes just over 800hp. It's a nice, rev happy and reliable combination.
This of course assumes you need FI
I agree with the LSA for best bang for buck!
Lots of info on fitting these engines by these guys,
https://www.facebook.com/autobionics/photos/a.5989...
Or, if you want something more try the new LT4.
https://www.facebook.com/autobionics/photos/a.5989...
KR's String
Lots of info on fitting these engines by these guys,
https://www.facebook.com/autobionics/photos/a.5989...
Or, if you want something more try the new LT4.
https://www.facebook.com/autobionics/photos/a.5989...
KR's String
I don't know about the LS9 BUT THE LT4 is out because you can not mount the intake on backwards due to the position of the high pressure pump. turning the air intake away from the bodywork on a ultima could be done but you will have a gigantic impediment to airflow when your done and even turning it around in this manner will put your intake in close proximity to the headers. Lee
When I rebuild my gtr I rated a scharged or a turbo, but for the reasons that LEE wrote, I gave up.
Too much heat under the clam (important problem for gtr, especially in summer in italy in traffic ), high consumption, type of output rpm, etc etc.
So I worked my aspirated with cam, ecu, throttle, pro, etc etc.
I think that for a 360° affidable gtr, 90% trackday running (no carriage with the cart), a safe output rpm (not on ice ...) a 600cv aspirated engine is the best solution.
Someone in the past said "things that do not exist do not break"
Too much heat under the clam (important problem for gtr, especially in summer in italy in traffic ), high consumption, type of output rpm, etc etc.
So I worked my aspirated with cam, ecu, throttle, pro, etc etc.
I think that for a 360° affidable gtr, 90% trackday running (no carriage with the cart), a safe output rpm (not on ice ...) a 600cv aspirated engine is the best solution.
Someone in the past said "things that do not exist do not break"
ROWDYRENAULT said:
I don't know about the LS9 BUT THE LT4 is out because you can not mount the intake on backwards due to the position of the high pressure pump. turning the air intake away from the bodywork on a ultima could be done but you will have a gigantic impediment to airflow when your done and even turning it around in this manner will put your intake in close proximity to the headers. Lee
No need to flip the intake manifold on the LT4. Just some small mods needed like AutoBionics do perfectly.Gassing Station | Ultima | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff