Ultima RS model is announced

Ultima RS model is announced

Author
Discussion

dandare

602 posts

199 months

Wednesday 12th June
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I like it. Some nice new touches.
Not so sure about the rear lights, but at least they don't remind me of any other car.
Good job, factory and Mr. Smith.

JulierPass

350 posts

175 months

Wednesday 12th June
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I'm quite despondent about this. I'm interested in buying a car, but it seems that the factory is only interested in selling me a box a bits that needs putting together. Crying shame given how good this car may well be, just seems to have mickey mouse support behind it.

leerandle

617 posts

52 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
JulierPass said:
I'm quite despondent about this. I'm interested in buying a car, but it seems that the factory is only interested in selling me a box a bits that needs putting together. Crying shame given how good this car may well be, just seems to have mickey mouse support behind it.
I think you'll probably find that due to the launch of the new car, just keeping up with demand to supply them in bits is going to be difficult enough, never mind them building it for you. There are some people/places out there what would take on a build for you if you don't want to do it yourself.




wannabe-racer

35 posts

12 months

Wednesday 12th June
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I love the new fresh modern look of the new car. The thing I couldn't get past was the front of the older car, I never liked it and with this they have fixed it.

There seems to be many other options now as well, but I did notice the cost is a little bit more to build than the Evo, especially if opting for the new LT engines. That said, it's still a great price for what you get and no doubt will be an awesome car.

I do wonder and have always wondered and its why I haven't yet placed an order whether I'd have the skills to build it or perhaps get fed up or issues with the engine finalising it. I am technically minded, but this is a risk for me so was a little disappointed there was no help to build it. I think I could build the car but the running gear is the bit I am most concerned about never actually having worked on an engine before. I do wonder if there is a company willing to help install the engine, gearbox and tune the car once ready.

Turn7

16,082 posts

166 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
Clearly a stunning car, but who is it aimed at ?

The price is clearly not aimed at budget track gods, full on race cars are amply catered for in excess I would imagine....

So, Im curious - who would actually dump the cold hard cash on one of these ?

This has got be in FXX/AMR GT8 kind of circles ?

Storer

4,993 posts

160 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
wannabe-racer said:
I love the new fresh modern look of the new car. The thing I couldn't get past was the front of the older car, I never liked it and with this they have fixed it.

There seems to be many other options now as well, but I did notice the cost is a little bit more to build than the Evo, especially if opting for the new LT engines. That said, it's still a great price for what you get and no doubt will be an awesome car.

I do wonder and have always wondered and its why I haven't yet placed an order whether I'd have the skills to build it or perhaps get fed up or issues with the engine finalising it. I am technically minded, but this is a risk for me so was a little disappointed there was no help to build it. I think I could build the car but the running gear is the bit I am most concerned about never actually having worked on an engine before. I do wonder if there is a company willing to help install the engine, gearbox and tune the car once ready.
There are a few companies that would take on part or all of the build for you. Autobionics and Southways are just two. The factory would also be able to assist.


Storer

4,993 posts

160 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
Turn7 said:
Clearly a stunning car, but who is it aimed at ?

The price is clearly not aimed at budget track gods, full on race cars are amply catered for in excess I would imagine....

So, Im curious - who would actually dump the cold hard cash on one of these ?

This has got be in FXX/AMR GT8 kind of circles ?
You seem to be forgetting that the Ultima is Road registerable in just about every country.

They are great fun and add ‘theatre’ to the everyday boring boxes on wheels that are mainstream manufacturers offerings.

An Ultima offers 911 GT2 beating performance for 911 Carrera 2 money.

Turn7

16,082 posts

166 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
Storer said:
Turn7 said:
Clearly a stunning car, but who is it aimed at ?

The price is clearly not aimed at budget track gods, full on race cars are amply catered for in excess I would imagine....

So, Im curious - who would actually dump the cold hard cash on one of these ?

This has got be in FXX/AMR GT8 kind of circles ?
You seem to be forgetting that the Ultima is Road registerable in just about every country.

They are great fun and add ‘theatre’ to the everyday boring boxes on wheels that are mainstream manufacturers offerings.

An Ultima offers 911 GT2 beating performance for 911 Carrera 2 money.
Not forgetting the road legal side at all, just asking - the kind of people who have this sort of pocket money are very careful on where they spend it - residuals being an obvious concern.

I have no idea what this new car costs, but Im guessing its a 6 fiigure amount ish....

Which brings all kinds of other brands into the mix.

Im not trolling or knocking Ultima in any way, but as an average wage PH'er. Im curious whos going to buy this new car in the numbers required to appease the bean counters.... ?


wannabe-racer

35 posts

12 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
The type of person who will buy this car is someone looking for a car they can drive on the road and the track as a toy. You can drive it to the track, drive it all day then go home. It's best to trailer it but this gives the choice.

Residuals seem OK to me and much better then the likes of Porche, Mclaren etc. Ferrari is an exception. They very rarely come up for sale but when they do they seem to fetch close to what they were new - at least from what I have seen.

Costs wise varies so much and esp with the new LT engines as these seem much more expensive than the older Chevy LS engines. I haven't actually done the due-diligence in a XL sheet on costs yet for the RS but Ultima has said you can build one for BMW M3 money which is roughly what I have seen. I think this would be a very basic car mind you with little carbon and other flashy things.

I wouldn't compare this to a FXX though, although performance wise yes, costs no way near. This is the thing, it's actually quite embarrassing just how overpriced other super-cars are and the financial loss of buying other supercars if you decide to sell it later is huge. If you buy a Mclaren 570S today for ~£150k, in 2 years it will likely be worth considerably less - closer to ~£110-£120k this is not the case with an Ultima.

My concern is, I can't see the manual before I commit. I know there are loads of build vlogs/blogs which are quite honestly awesome! but I want a manual to chew over but Ultima won't share the manual until a order is placed?!?

I also like the Radicals, but most of the Radicals cannot be driven on the road, this can.

Turn7

16,082 posts

166 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
wannabe-racer said:
The type of person who will buy this car is someone looking for a car they can drive on the road and the track as a toy. You can drive it to the track, drive it all day then go home. It's best to trailer it but this gives the choice.

Residuals seem OK to me and much better then the likes of Porche, Mclaren etc. Ferrari is an exception. They very rarely come up for sale but when they do they seem to fetch close to what they were new - at least from what I have seen.

Costs wise varies so much and esp with the new LT engines as these seem much more expensive than the older Chevy LS engines. I haven't actually done the due-diligence in a XL sheet on costs yet for the RS but Ultima has said you can build one for BMW M3 money which is roughly what I have seen. I think this would be a very basic car mind you with little carbon and other flashy things.

I wouldn't compare this to a FXX though, although performance wise yes, costs no way near. This is the thing, it's actually quite embarrassing just how overpriced other super-cars are and the financial loss of buying other supercars if you decide to sell it later is huge. If you buy a Mclaren 570S today for ~£150k, in 2 years it will likely be worth considerably less - closer to ~£110-£120k this is not the case with an Ultima.

My concern is, I can't see the manual before I commit. I know there are loads of build vlogs/blogs which are quite honestly awesome! but I want a manual to chew over but Ultima won't share the manual until a order is placed?!?

I also like the Radicals, but most of the Radicals cannot be driven on the road, this can.
Thanks fro the info, Radicals did indeed come to mind,,,,,

renmure

2,949 posts

169 months

Wednesday 12th June
quotequote all
JulierPass said:
I'm quite despondent about this. I'm interested in buying a car, but it seems that the factory is only interested in selling me a box a bits that needs putting together. Crying shame given how good this car may well be, just seems to have mickey mouse support behind it.
That's an interesting point and one I sort of have some sympathy with (apart from the Mickey Mouse bit) but it really is a Catch22 situation as I've discovered with another kit manufacturer.

If you want to be able to walk in and order a new car today and drive away it next week then someone would have had to have started hand building it months ago. Multiply your car needs by the number of cars in the pipeline (over 20 current orders for RS cars) and you then need another two dozen employees working full time building cars and a huge logistics chain for supplying them with everything they need, when they need them. That's no longer a small niche business.

Like you, I'm a bit of a spoiled brat and want things NOW!! I've also got no interest whatever in building my own car from "a box of bits" and a 2 year wait for a turnkey car isn't appealing so again, like you, I'm a bit frozen out. However, there's obviously more than enough people who are perfectly catered for by the self-build route or accept the wait for a factory built car.

There are specialist builders out there tho who would work with you to build you a bespoke car but that obviously costs money. Far less money tho than the £50k hit in depreciation you suffer if you drive a shiney new McLaren out the showroom.

JulierPass

350 posts

175 months

Thursday 13th June
quotequote all
renmure said:
JulierPass said:
I'm quite despondent about this. I'm interested in buying a car, but it seems that the factory is only interested in selling me a box a bits that needs putting together. Crying shame given how good this car may well be, just seems to have mickey mouse support behind it.
That's an interesting point and one I sort of have some sympathy with (apart from the Mickey Mouse bit) but it really is a Catch22 situation as I've discovered with another kit manufacturer.

If you want to be able to walk in and order a new car today and drive away it next week then someone would have had to have started hand building it months ago. Multiply your car needs by the number of cars in the pipeline (over 20 current orders for RS cars) and you then need another two dozen employees working full time building cars and a huge logistics chain for supplying them with everything they need, when they need them. That's no longer a small niche business.

Like you, I'm a bit of a spoiled brat and want things NOW!! I've also got no interest whatever in building my own car from "a box of bits" and a 2 year wait for a turnkey car isn't appealing so again, like you, I'm a bit frozen out. However, there's obviously more than enough people who are perfectly catered for by the self-build route or accept the wait for a factory built car.

There are specialist builders out there tho who would work with you to build you a bespoke car but that obviously costs money. Far less money tho than the £50k hit in depreciation you suffer if you drive a shiney new McLaren out the showroom.
It's not the wait. When I spoke to Singer about my 911 they said 2 to 3 years, So I have happily given them some money and know that within 36 months I'll get my car - note the word car, not box of bits! They are also a niche small niche business, circa 100 cars built to date. Regarding depreciation, no one likes to loose money, but unfortunately its a fact of life with cars, but I have come to terms with it and buy cars for the driving experience not the hope of profit, or little depreciation.

What really annoyed me was that when I called Ultima (numerous times) I was told to keep calling back, no one seemed interested in taking my name and number. I then emailed explaining I wanted to buy a car and the reply I had for the Ultima was the same copy and paste email I had when I inquired about the Evo a year or so ago

The email just banged on about "Phenomenal" demand meaning they couldn't supply a car so instead they just attached some pretty poor looking xcel spreadsheets trying to encourage me to buy a kit.

I accept Ultima's roots are that or a kit car outfit, but it appears Ultima want to try and take market share from other manufacturers - why else would they go to the time and expense to take a stand at Goodwood this year? So what I really don't understand is why, if they don't have the man power to build what they can supposedly supply, don't they form a partnership with a reputable company that can carry out the builds for customers and work in tandem? Even if the things take 12 to 36 months to deliver, if the finished product warranted it, people would wait. It just seems really poor to promote a car that unless you are good technically you can't obtain.

Storer

4,993 posts

160 months

Thursday 13th June
quotequote all
JulierPass said:
It's not the wait. When I spoke to Singer about my 911 they said 2 to 3 years, So I have happily given them some money and know that within 36 months I'll get my car - note the word car, not box of bits! They are also a niche small niche business, circa 100 cars built to date. Regarding depreciation, no one likes to loose money, but unfortunately its a fact of life with cars, but I have come to terms with it and buy cars for the driving experience not the hope of profit, or little depreciation.

What really annoyed me was that when I called Ultima (numerous times) I was told to keep calling back, no one seemed interested in taking my name and number. I then emailed explaining I wanted to buy a car and the reply I had for the Ultima was the same copy and paste email I had when I inquired about the Evo a year or so ago

The email just banged on about "Phenomenal" demand meaning they couldn't supply a car so instead they just attached some pretty poor looking xcel spreadsheets trying to encourage me to buy a kit.

I accept Ultima's roots are that or a kit car outfit, but it appears Ultima want to try and take market share from other manufacturers - why else would they go to the time and expense to take a stand at Goodwood this year? So what I really don't understand is why, if they don't have the man power to build what they can supposedly supply, don't they form a partnership with a reputable company that can carry out the builds for customers and work in tandem? Even if the things take 12 to 36 months to deliver, if the finished product warranted it, people would wait. It just seems really poor to promote a car that unless you are good technically you can't obtain.
Ultima are not taking a stand at Goodwood, the car (and a couple of staff) will be on the Michelin stand. Michelin are their preferred tyre supplier.

An Ultima is ideal for the person who likes to get a bit ‘hands on’ with their car. It is a simple design which allows the owner to modify or upgrade it with time. Ultima Sports see the car as a hobby which when built is also a very fast car.
You get two types of builder. The one that enjoys the build process but then sells almost immediately they have finished (and often builds another). Or you get the person who builds and keeps the car long term. With a long term builder/owner there is a tendency to change things you are not happy with as time goes by, so it continues the ‘hobby’ element.

Supporting the hobbyist is very important to Ultima and their product is very well thought out and they supply everything you need to the last nut and bolt.

Because there is no “standard” spec Ultima each car is individual. So this is not the sort of car a very small company can construct on a production line. Additionally the technician building each car needs a wide ranging skill set. The same person will build the complete rolling chassis, including wiring, bonding, riveting, suspension setup, engine installation etc. He will then assist the body guy installing the body, and then complete the fitout.
It takes a long time to acquire the necessary skills to achieve the required quality.

A big business is not always the most profitable business. Ultima make a reasonable return from their current structure. I believe they have plans to slightly increase the number of fully built cars they are able to produce, but component built cars are their mainstay.


deadscoob

2,059 posts

205 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
Yep, what Paul said.

If there is a 2+ year lead time for a ready built car it’s a tricky thing for a small company to balance between keeping lead times palatable, demand high and resources sensible.
I’d actually be grateful that something like this gets announced and you can actually buy one rather than what Porsche et al do - announce a certain model, you enquire and get laughed at as you’re not on their approved list of flippers.....;)

Turn7 - it’s as simple or complicated as you make it. Keep it all factory spec and it’s automotive meccano, Change from that and it gets more difficult.
Engine wise, the lt4 and 5 being offered is essentially a crate engine with a mild tune to maximise the cars weight, exhaust and induction. It should be as reliable as the engine in GM products with similar usability and ease of ownership.
Things have moved on since I put a standard LS7 in mine and it was totally reliable, easy to live with, good road manners etc. That can change to a degree if you start changing cams etc.
I’d expect however a standard lt5 with 750-800hp would fall in the “adequate” level of performance and would keep most people happy for a while biggrin

JulierPass

350 posts

175 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
Storer and deadscoob, I appreciate what you are saying. However if demand is so phenomenal why don't they go and form a partnership with a reputable 3rd party to carry out customer builds? At the very least that would be the sensible business decision. That would allow them to focus on the hobby builder whilst gaining momentum with people like me who race cars and enjoy them but have no interest in the mechanical side.

Whilst they may not be paying for a stand at Goodwood, the still want the car there to show it to the world, so it seems ludicrous to do that only to end up dealing with potential customers in the way I have been dealt with, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one.

Racingroj

476 posts

108 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
Please see the answer from the factory just posted on Ultima Owners Facebook page regarding the delay in replying to emails and enquiries for the new Ultima RS.

Storer

4,993 posts

160 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
JulierPass said:
Storer and deadscoob, I appreciate what you are saying. However if demand is so phenomenal why don't they go and form a partnership with a reputable 3rd party to carry out customer builds? At the very least that would be the sensible business decision. That would allow them to focus on the hobby builder whilst gaining momentum with people like me who race cars and enjoy them but have no interest in the mechanical side.

Whilst they may not be paying for a stand at Goodwood, the still want the car there to show it to the world, so it seems ludicrous to do that only to end up dealing with potential customers in the way I have been dealt with, and I know for a fact I'm not the only one.
The biggest issue would be finding a partner that is able to build the car to the quality Ultima currently do, but also do it cost effectively. It takes an experienced builder about 4 months to build a factory spec car (no modifications). That is working full time on the build. 2 people do not halve that time and three would not do it in a third of the time. So the more you try to speed up production the more costly it gets. As soon as a customer wants custom work done that 4 months increases significantly, as outside suppliers/specialists get involved.

I know the margin made on a factory built Ultima is not much more than the margin on that car in kit form, so the incentive to ramp up fully built car production is low.

If you want a turn key car I can put you in touch with people who can do it for you. But beware of being tempted to “customise” your build, as there be dragons 🐉 down that route!

wannabe-racer

35 posts

12 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
For the folks that have built an Ultima, what would you say are the top 3 hardest things about building the car and this question is based on a stock build i.e. everything sourced from Ultima using gearbox and running gear they recommend LS engines etc.? I suspect depending on skill and experience, this list will vary significantly but it would be interesting nonetheless. I for example love taking on challenges, things I haven't done before and am in no hurry and part of the problem with me is I need everything to be perfect.

I have been told it takes approx 300hrs to build the car.

Based on simple maths, if you spent 2hrs per night Mon-Fri (which is pretty realistic for me I think) it would take around 30 weeks to complete or around 7-8 months. Not sure how realistic this is, again looking for feedback from people who have built the car.

Cheers

UltimaCH

3,092 posts

134 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
wannabe-racer said:
For the folks that have built an Ultima, what would you say are the top 3 hardest things about building the car and this question is based on a stock build i.e. everything sourced from Ultima using gearbox and running gear they recommend LS engines etc.? I suspect depending on skill and experience, this list will vary significantly but it would be interesting nonetheless. I for example love taking on challenges, things I haven't done before and am in no hurry and part of the problem with me is I need everything to be perfect.

I have been told it takes approx 300hrs to build the car.

Based on simple maths, if you spent 2hrs per night Mon-Fri (which is pretty realistic for me I think) it would take around 30 weeks to complete or around 7-8 months. Not sure how realistic this is, again looking for feedback from people who have built the car.

Cheers
Sounds a reasonable time frame, even if mine was started in early 2013 and is an ongoing project

Storer

4,993 posts

160 months

Friday 14th June
quotequote all
wannabe-racer said:
For the folks that have built an Ultima, what would you say are the top 3 hardest things about building the car and this question is based on a stock build i.e. everything sourced from Ultima using gearbox and running gear they recommend LS engines etc.? I suspect depending on skill and experience, this list will vary significantly but it would be interesting nonetheless. I for example love taking on challenges, things I haven't done before and am in no hurry and part of the problem with me is I need everything to be perfect.

I have been told it takes approx 300hrs to build the car.

Based on simple maths, if you spent 2hrs per night Mon-Fri (which is pretty realistic for me I think) it would take around 30 weeks to complete or around 7-8 months. Not sure how realistic this is, again looking for feedback from people who have built the car.

Cheers
It is best not to rush the build. It is a big part of the fun.
The advantage of building your car is that you can also service and repair it.
Running costs are a fraction of other makes with similar performance. Insurance is cheap too.