Ultima GTR vs. FFR GTM?

[mohrt]

I stumbled across this Factory Five GTM kit, and it looks strikingly similar to the Ultima GTR kit (Chevy V8 power plant + Porsche transaxle.) I haven't seen a direct comparison between these two cars, so I thought I'd start a thread

At first glance, at 20K US for the GTM kit, then slap on some C5 Corvette parts, engine and a Porsche transaxle, you have yourself a complete supercar at the tune of 30-45K US. That sounds too good to be true!

I think the GTR looks better, but this price point is really attractive. The interior looks fairly complete too. Does the GTR outperform with identical engine/transaxle setup? (I have yet to see performance details on the GTM.)

Official Web page:

http://www.factoryfive.com/table/ffrkits/GTM/GTMki...

Thoughts from the Ultima crowd?

[San Diego GTR]

mohrt,
I built a FFR Cobra and it wound up costing around $45k. I think most guys spend about $35k to $50k to build Cobras. I think the GTM will be more than that to do a good job. The key is the quality of the build. I am also building a GTR. Let me say this, The GTR will be more expensive than a GTM. It should also have a much better resale value. The reason is simple. It uses only the highest quality parts. The build quality of the GTR kit is first rate and those buddies of mine (guys that have built their own FFR Roadster's and now GTM's too) that have come over to see the GTR have all agreed that the GTR is the superior kit if quality is your goal. If saving a few bucks is more important, then go with a GTM. The GTM will be a very nice car, but I would compare it to the Noble rather than a GTR. Basically the GTM is a C5 Corvette that has 1000 lbs removed. You asked for someones opinion. I hope it helps.

Edited by San Diego GTR on Saturday 1st September 15:54

Edited by San Diego GTR on Friday 9th November 19:15

[mohrt]

That helps! I guess I'm curious about the performance difference between the two. I would imagine with better build parts, the GTR would take the edge. Can the GTM keep up on the track with similar power?

[v8sag]

Your in the same position between the two I would like to be in a couple of years when I shake the TVR syndrome.
Ive always liked the GTM,proven drivetrain(would prefer a rose jointed option over those rubber plantantion sized suspension bush'es),lovely curves and from the vids ive watched the chassis seems up to it.
Only downside (for me) is the left hand drive set up.
Best bet for you if possible is to drive both,however I think your build budget may be a tad optimistic on the GTM and would look at the two ending up around the same from what i've read.

[Bitzleftover]

San Diego GTR said:

mohrt, If saving a few bucks is more important to you then go with a GTM. The GTM will be a very nice car, but I would compare it to the Noble rather than a GTR.

Jeez just wait till the Noble guys read that!

[San Diego GTR]

Also I would look at the raw frames of each car. Notice on the Ultima you have 2" steel ahead of the front wheels. The GTM has much smaller tubing all over the car and very little to protect against a front end impact. Also, check the steel between the driver and the engine compartment. Significantly more steel to stop the engine from sitting in your lap in a rear end accident. I'm sure you can find pictures of each frame on each mftr website to compare for yourself. Again, I am not knocking the GTM, just comparing the differences. Look for yourself and draw your own conclusions.

Edited by San Diego GTR on Sunday 2nd September 14:25

[mohrt]

San Diego GTR said:

Basically the GTM is a C5 Corvette that has 1000 lbs removed.

The GTM is mid-engine, which will make the car handle a whole lot different. It also has a custom chassis/body. I don't know if I'd call the GTM a C5, except for borrowing some of its parts.

[Fran Hall]

There is an alternative..... http://superlitecars.com/
...2250lbs with a twin turbo 1UZFE Toyota/Lexus powerplant....
The engine bay is large enough to accept many sized engine and transaxle packages so the hard core one off builders can do something creative.....no donor parts needed, and shipped rolling with the body prefitted for approx. 22k quid...

Edited by Fran Hall on Wednesday 18th July 00:22

Edited by Fran Hall on Wednesday 18th July 00:23

[dfpat10]

mohrt

I to have looked at the kits available and I consider the Ultima far more refined than any other performance sportscar. Check out the history http://www.ultimasports.co.uk/history/

If you’re still questioning which kit look to the records the Ultima has set. GTWayne’s Ultima is reported to have done 204 MPH. LuckyP out on the track very frequently and I can’t get enough of those videos. The car performs well. Ask yourself what you want.

As for the Factory 5 GTM I’m sure it’s a fine car. At Knott’s Berry Farm I did noticed there were two distinctly different GTM frame designs. I believe the latest design incorporates larger tubing.

Good luck with your decision and I believe if you ask any Ultima owner’s here you will find they wouldn’t trade their Ultima’s for a GTM.

Dave

If only every Chevrolet small block had the ability to match the Ultima’s performance!

[crafty]

This is cool.... Arbitrage GT. Built in Thailand by a company called Cobra International... with a Carbon Fibre tub.... apparently USD100K less engine and trans

http://www.arbitragecars.com/index.html

Edited by crafty on Wednesday 18th July 03:12

[Fran Hall]

problem is that the trans is $25k...Gearfox unit

Edited by Fran Hall on Wednesday 18th July 04:37

[San Diego GTR]

Mohrt-You're right. The balance will be different, but, as you know, most of the parts for the drive train and suspension are right off a C5. In fact, I was wrong on the weight savings. Dave Borden (who built a GTM) a says in one of his threads on ffcobra.com that it is only 600 lbs lighter than a C5.

Fran-I love the Coupe. You build a great car. How is Bill doing on his GT40 build? Did those parts I sold you work out ok for your customer?
Paul

[Fran Hall]

Paul,

they worked great thanks.....did you ever send me the shipping bill on that??....let me know....cheers

Edited by Fran Hall on Wednesday 18th July 05:52

[andygtt]

crafty said:

This is cool.... Arbitrage GT. Built in Thailand by a company called Cobra International... with a Carbon Fibre tub.... apparently USD100K less engine and trans

http://www.arbitragecars.com/index.html

Edited by crafty on Wednesday 18th July 03:12

Carbon tubs will be very difficult to get insurance for as slight damage can lead to a complete new tub beeing replaced, insurance companies know this.

[Karlo]

“The chassis really can handle the horsepower of the LS7 engine… The car is easier to drive fast than a Z06 Corvette”

Car and Driver Magazine Technical Editor Larry Webster (GTM FFR)



GTM LS6 pictured above

[GTRCLIVE]

I can see why people love them there are very Cheap for the what you get.. But not for me...It's a bit Marmite for me...

[mohrt]

I'm interested in performance comparisons. Will the Ultima outpace the GTM in every aspect with a comparably equipped engine/transaxle? It's just speculation until we see some definitive results from the GTM, such as 0-60, 0-100, 1/4 mile, 0-100-0, lateral g, top speed, track results, etc.

[crafty]

I'm thinking that with a similar spec engine/trans/brakes/suspension there's not be much in it considering the weights and dimensions are similar.

Of course we all know that Ultima drivers are MUCH better drivers so it really wouldnt be fair at all.

[Hugger Z]

One other factor to consider is that you have to do body work and paint the GTM. The Ultima comes in gelcoat and does not require paint (although it is optional). I know someone that had a GTM and was loathing all of the bodywork and cleaning up the bodylines on his kit.

[David Borden]

[quote]I was wrong on the weight savings. Dave Borden (who built a GTM) a says in one of his threads on ffcobra.com that it is only 600 lbs lighter than a C5.
[/quote]

my ears were burning

I did get a chance to weigh my car recently, and it weighed in at 2360lbs with about 5 gallons of fuel and all fluids. This is with AC, a full interior and second skin sound insulation on most all panels to dampen sound and vibration. It appears my GTM is about 850-900lbs lighter than a C5 covette based on reported curb weight around 3200lbs(assuming thats without fuel)

To call the GTM a C5 with less weight really makes no sense. The only things they share is the engine, control arms, hubs, brakes, steering column and a few other bits. 95% of the car is different, including the layout of the motor, driving position, CG, height, weight, width... etc.

The GTM is very high quality car when complete, but you must provide more labor to get it there. Its a tradeoff for $. The GTR body comes much more finished, and you pay more for that. Just depends on what you want.

My car would cost about 45-50K to duplicate(not including labor). What makes a nice car, or a turd, is the attention to detail put into the assembly. I suspect no different than the GTR.

I suspect the performance of the two cars would be similiar. I do know that FFR LS7 car does 0-60 under 3 sec and to 100 around 7 sec flat. It was tested to brake from 60-0 in under 100 feet. This is with a bone stock LS7 motor(505 HP).

I drove this car while down at knotts this year, and I can tell you its a monster... drives like an every day car. Very smooth and quiet... once you stomp the go pedal, it almost takes your breath away... very very quick.

Its all just physics... The GTR and the GTM are very similiar in weight, layout and performance potential. The Ultima Co has had many years to develope their cars and optimize the performance. There are probably only 10 GTM's on the road in the world right now. Its going to take some time to get results out there.

I believe Car and Driver will be publishing there article on the GTM in the next issue. Hopefully it will be a decent report

Ive had my car on the road for about 2 weeks now. Drove it 250 miles round trip in 100 degree weather , with some of it stop and go. Very happy to report she ran beautifully and without a hitch.(besides being me pretty warm, my AC isnt charged)

Here a video of me driving the car un in the foothills of Northern CA.

(right click and save target as)to save to your computer

http://www.gtmbuild.com/galleries/videos/gtm_run.w...

Let me know what you think...

David