Discussion
Im sure this question could seriously destroy my bank account.
But hey ho, here goes.
Ive found a thread posted sometime back re sequential G50 setup, which just fizzled out, crafty was a part of the thread. Has anyone come up with a cheaper alternative to a paddle shift for the average setup?
Kyle any views on this Ashley? Dave I know your planning a nice setup soon. any way to further modify it?
Can it be done, this is way beyond my knowledge levels so over to you guys, any thoughts would be appreciated.
Approx costs too. This isnt something im planning to do at the moment, just something that may turn into an option.
Mark
But hey ho, here goes.
Ive found a thread posted sometime back re sequential G50 setup, which just fizzled out, crafty was a part of the thread. Has anyone come up with a cheaper alternative to a paddle shift for the average setup?
Kyle any views on this Ashley? Dave I know your planning a nice setup soon. any way to further modify it?
Can it be done, this is way beyond my knowledge levels so over to you guys, any thoughts would be appreciated.
Approx costs too. This isnt something im planning to do at the moment, just something that may turn into an option.
Mark
Mjpmark said:
Im sure this question could seriously destroy my bank account.
But hey ho, here goes.
Ive found a thread posted sometime back re sequential G50 setup, which just fizzled out, crafty was a part of the thread. Has anyone come up with a cheaper alternative to a paddle shift for the average setup?
Kyle any views on this Ashley? Dave I know your planning a nice setup soon. any way to further modify it?
Can it be done, this is way beyond my knowledge levels so over to you guys, any thoughts would be appreciated.
Approx costs too. This isnt something im planning to do at the moment, just something that may turn into an option.
Mark
Hi MarkBut hey ho, here goes.
Ive found a thread posted sometime back re sequential G50 setup, which just fizzled out, crafty was a part of the thread. Has anyone come up with a cheaper alternative to a paddle shift for the average setup?
Kyle any views on this Ashley? Dave I know your planning a nice setup soon. any way to further modify it?
Can it be done, this is way beyond my knowledge levels so over to you guys, any thoughts would be appreciated.
Approx costs too. This isnt something im planning to do at the moment, just something that may turn into an option.
Mark
Not easy to achieve this with a manual H pattern box. Mine is semi-sequential and still requires some manual movement to change gear. I wouldn't really recommend modifying it further to a paddle change although I did think think about this myself and I could do it. I don't know of any system that exists that can do this but I would love to see one. Paddle systems usually only work with auto or dog boxes.
Regards Dave
There's a paddle shift available from Mastershift http://www.mastershift.com/
Some of the GTM boys have tried it and reports are that it has chewed up a few boxes.
I was trying to get a sequential shifter solution.
To do this the G50 needs to be cable shift.
Autobionics have an external adaptor for G50 that looks well engineered.
Sequshift make a rance of sequential shifters... the one made for VW boxes has the correct shift pattern and movement limits to match the G50.
I believe that the Sequshift version made for VW boxes SHOULD work along with a cable mechanism from Autobionics.
I've tried to contact Sequshift but had no response, I understand that the guys there dont speak very goodly English.
I contacted Autobionics and the guys there said they'd need to know the cable force exerted by the Sequshift in order to be able to confirm if the shifter would work with their setup.
It LOOKS like the 2 will work... its just a matter of connecting the dots... which is a challenge from over here in Hong Kong.
I still want to investigate this... but its going to be trial and error and a few grand, and would be best done in the UK where the Sequshift can be taken to Autobionics to see if it works.
If anyone else wants to try it I am happy to send you 1/2 the money for your one and we can do a joint trial. If it doesnt work we sell the parts if it does you can pay me back my 1/2.
Any takers.
Some of the GTM boys have tried it and reports are that it has chewed up a few boxes.
I was trying to get a sequential shifter solution.
To do this the G50 needs to be cable shift.
Autobionics have an external adaptor for G50 that looks well engineered.
Sequshift make a rance of sequential shifters... the one made for VW boxes has the correct shift pattern and movement limits to match the G50.
I believe that the Sequshift version made for VW boxes SHOULD work along with a cable mechanism from Autobionics.
I've tried to contact Sequshift but had no response, I understand that the guys there dont speak very goodly English.
I contacted Autobionics and the guys there said they'd need to know the cable force exerted by the Sequshift in order to be able to confirm if the shifter would work with their setup.
It LOOKS like the 2 will work... its just a matter of connecting the dots... which is a challenge from over here in Hong Kong.
I still want to investigate this... but its going to be trial and error and a few grand, and would be best done in the UK where the Sequshift can be taken to Autobionics to see if it works.
If anyone else wants to try it I am happy to send you 1/2 the money for your one and we can do a joint trial. If it doesnt work we sell the parts if it does you can pay me back my 1/2.
Any takers.
Helloooooooo Crafty!
How-de-doin?
Very benevolent of you to make such an auspicious offer!
I too would very much like to go this route...sadly though, my build is soooo far away from that point at the mo so it wouldnt be fair to either of us.
I remember when you started your build and was totally gob-smacked at the incredible speed you put it all together! I was...and still am, sooooo jealous!
I sometimes feel that I will still be putting things together from INSIDE my coffin....Boo-hooo! Better take a torch with me!
All the best matey...
Keith
How-de-doin?
Very benevolent of you to make such an auspicious offer!
I too would very much like to go this route...sadly though, my build is soooo far away from that point at the mo so it wouldnt be fair to either of us.
I remember when you started your build and was totally gob-smacked at the incredible speed you put it all together! I was...and still am, sooooo jealous!
I sometimes feel that I will still be putting things together from INSIDE my coffin....Boo-hooo! Better take a torch with me!
All the best matey...
Keith
Guys
I actually have a paddle shift system fitted to my GTR (the car is not yet road legal but will hopefully be SVA'd before too long).
The system is mated to a Hewland NLT transaxle and uses an airshift system operated by paddles on the steering wheel. These is no gear stick at all but the system works really well.
It was developed and fitted by Mark Frisby at Rapid GB in Northampton.
Thanks
NICKH
I actually have a paddle shift system fitted to my GTR (the car is not yet road legal but will hopefully be SVA'd before too long).
The system is mated to a Hewland NLT transaxle and uses an airshift system operated by paddles on the steering wheel. These is no gear stick at all but the system works really well.
It was developed and fitted by Mark Frisby at Rapid GB in Northampton.
Thanks
NICKH
VR6VR6 said:
Guys
I actually have a paddle shift system fitted to my GTR (the car is not yet road legal but will hopefully be SVA'd before too long).
The system is mated to a Hewland NLT transaxle and uses an airshift system operated by paddles on the steering wheel. These is no gear stick at all but the system works really well.
It was developed and fitted by Mark Frisby at Rapid GB in Northampton.
Thanks
NICKH
We need to see pics Nick. Please share your work.I actually have a paddle shift system fitted to my GTR (the car is not yet road legal but will hopefully be SVA'd before too long).
The system is mated to a Hewland NLT transaxle and uses an airshift system operated by paddles on the steering wheel. These is no gear stick at all but the system works really well.
It was developed and fitted by Mark Frisby at Rapid GB in Northampton.
Thanks
NICKH
Paul
You need a dog engagement in order to run any kind of clutchless shift. So far as I am aware the G50 is synchromesh? Quaife do such a box (seems to be a OEM thing with Parr Motorsport) but its limited in terms of power capability. Quaife's figures are very conservative, and it is torque which does the damage anyway. Quaife box is here http://www.quaife.co.uk/6-SPEED-SEQUENTIAL-GEARBOX...
There is also a company who do a paddleshift system which costs £3k, part of which I have on the quaife sequntial box in my Caterham. Have a look at Neil Patersons company www.geartronics.co.uk
To get downshifts to work you also really need an inetgrated fly by wire throttle to provide the required blipping.
A straight sequetial box with a stick shift and a load cell to provide falt shifting works very well in my opinion. Provides 70ms gear seamless changes all day long.
There is also a company who do a paddleshift system which costs £3k, part of which I have on the quaife sequntial box in my Caterham. Have a look at Neil Patersons company www.geartronics.co.uk
To get downshifts to work you also really need an inetgrated fly by wire throttle to provide the required blipping.
A straight sequetial box with a stick shift and a load cell to provide falt shifting works very well in my opinion. Provides 70ms gear seamless changes all day long.
Hi Guys,
I contacted a company stateside, this was theyre response.
"We have paddle shifted the Porsche G50-20 transaxle (the six speed version) and have hardware that mates to the transmission. Do you know if your G50 is a G50-20? If you go to our website you can see the hardware by scrolling a little past the middle on the following webpage http://mastershift.com/new-street-manual.html .
The retail cost of the shifter unit for a manual transmission is $2400.00 USD+ the hardware for the G50-20 transmission is $499 USD. We have several different types of paddle assemblies for several different types of steering wheels and for different looks. The kit includes a set of black steel paddles for Momo or Grant type steering wheels (5 or 6 bolt). These paddles can be upgraded to bent billet paddles for $199 USD. You can also get 9 bolt paddle assemblies in brushed aluminum for $351.00 USD. If you would like, it is also possible to add a gear indicator to your order for $249 USD that shows you the gear you are in (comes in polished or black). These are all retail pricing. It’s possible that you could qualify for our distributor pricing, but we would need to discuss that further.
If you would like to see our installation manual please go to our website at www.mastershift.com and in the upper right hand corner you will see a “user login” section. Please click this and enter in user name field enter “user”, and in the password field enter “mastershift”. This will sign you into the user section which will contain the installation manuals."
I contacted a company stateside, this was theyre response.
"We have paddle shifted the Porsche G50-20 transaxle (the six speed version) and have hardware that mates to the transmission. Do you know if your G50 is a G50-20? If you go to our website you can see the hardware by scrolling a little past the middle on the following webpage http://mastershift.com/new-street-manual.html .
The retail cost of the shifter unit for a manual transmission is $2400.00 USD+ the hardware for the G50-20 transmission is $499 USD. We have several different types of paddle assemblies for several different types of steering wheels and for different looks. The kit includes a set of black steel paddles for Momo or Grant type steering wheels (5 or 6 bolt). These paddles can be upgraded to bent billet paddles for $199 USD. You can also get 9 bolt paddle assemblies in brushed aluminum for $351.00 USD. If you would like, it is also possible to add a gear indicator to your order for $249 USD that shows you the gear you are in (comes in polished or black). These are all retail pricing. It’s possible that you could qualify for our distributor pricing, but we would need to discuss that further.
If you would like to see our installation manual please go to our website at www.mastershift.com and in the upper right hand corner you will see a “user login” section. Please click this and enter in user name field enter “user”, and in the password field enter “mastershift”. This will sign you into the user section which will contain the installation manuals."
VR6VR6 said:
Guys
I actually have a paddle shift system fitted to my GTR (the car is not yet road legal but will hopefully be SVA'd before too long).
It was developed and fitted by Mark Frisby at Rapid GB in Northampton.
NICKH
I know of him and he does some pretty cool stuff so I'm sure it;ll be good I actually have a paddle shift system fitted to my GTR (the car is not yet road legal but will hopefully be SVA'd before too long).
It was developed and fitted by Mark Frisby at Rapid GB in Northampton.
NICKH
It’s not much help but hear goes
http://www.albinsgear.com.au/pTransmissions.html#3
sequential boxes are all dog gear sets.
The cost of the box may be comparable to the cost of the G50 + mods to cable shift + mods to sequential shift.
I think that a paddle shift option is something that i could work out (my undergrad degree was Robotics and Computer Science) I just haven’t got to the point of being able to afford a Ultima yet.
sounds like there is a few people interested
I think you need to work out some form of benchmark, what do you want the system to achieve.
-how fast do you want it to shift
-what power level
-clutch less on up and down change
-stand alone without engine management modification
-does it need to interface to a carburettor.
-does it need a standard shifter
-reverse lockout
-gear indicator
-no internal gearbox mods
add your thoughts to that list, I've got a few more but don’t want to lead the discussion as it may be going away from what the group wants.
what actuators are going to power it. hydraulic or pneumatic is likely but require separate tanks and supply. electronic solenoids will be heavy and large for the required speed and response you are looking for at a guess.
http://www.albinsgear.com.au/pTransmissions.html#3
sequential boxes are all dog gear sets.
The cost of the box may be comparable to the cost of the G50 + mods to cable shift + mods to sequential shift.
I think that a paddle shift option is something that i could work out (my undergrad degree was Robotics and Computer Science) I just haven’t got to the point of being able to afford a Ultima yet.
sounds like there is a few people interested
I think you need to work out some form of benchmark, what do you want the system to achieve.
-how fast do you want it to shift
-what power level
-clutch less on up and down change
-stand alone without engine management modification
-does it need to interface to a carburettor.
-does it need a standard shifter
-reverse lockout
-gear indicator
-no internal gearbox mods
add your thoughts to that list, I've got a few more but don’t want to lead the discussion as it may be going away from what the group wants.
what actuators are going to power it. hydraulic or pneumatic is likely but require separate tanks and supply. electronic solenoids will be heavy and large for the required speed and response you are looking for at a guess.
Kaspa on piston heads has a flat shift setup in his Frasser (a lotus 7 replica that he has nicknamed Monty) it is running with a quafe sequential gearbox i think. I remember reading a post about how it was setup but can’t remember were. Went into some detail about how it interfaced to the engine electronics and clutch. Could be worth looking for that post.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manual_transmission
syncronmesh uses a cone shaped clutch to match the speed of the gear to the shaft
Dog gears lack the cone shaped clutsh on the selector and have a couple of large teath ounted on the side of the gear that mesh with similar shaped teeth on the side of the selector. See below
This site also has a few videos of the transmission stuff on it to get you up to speed.
http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible.html
syncronmesh uses a cone shaped clutch to match the speed of the gear to the shaft
Dog gears lack the cone shaped clutsh on the selector and have a couple of large teath ounted on the side of the gear that mesh with similar shaped teeth on the side of the selector. See below
This site also has a few videos of the transmission stuff on it to get you up to speed.
http://www.carbibles.com/transmission_bible.html
It may also be worth looking into this
http://www.ajspeedshift.com/
They use a hydraulic shift linkage that makes a lot of sense when you think about the evolution of brakes from the early cable and mechanical linkages to modern hydraulics.
Their current system is set up for Type 1 VW and Medeola. I understand that development of G50's may be possible there is enough demand.
http://www.ajspeedshift.com/
They use a hydraulic shift linkage that makes a lot of sense when you think about the evolution of brakes from the early cable and mechanical linkages to modern hydraulics.
Their current system is set up for Type 1 VW and Medeola. I understand that development of G50's may be possible there is enough demand.
People are making some significnat assumptions here.
The only Porsche gearbox which is not from a full blown race car which is likley to have dog engagement gears is this one http://www.quaife.co.uk/Porsche-GT3-6-speed-dog-en...
Dog engagement is the ONLY way you can change gear without using the clutch.
How you then select the gears is a completely different matter.
The G50 has an H pattern shift. Setting up a pneumatic or solenoid shifter system to perform such a complex task would be impossible (or at least imposibly unreliable). Therefore a single plane single lever operation is required. To move the slector forks within the gearbox,a barrel is used which is tracked by a number of followers as shown in this animation.
The barrel can connect directly to the forks (as it does in most race car boxes, and this example) or there can be a remote drum, which is what is used in the Ford type boxes used in Caterhams etc.
To understand the difference between this and a conventional H pattern box see this web page:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox1....
So a G50 has two major components missing - dog engagment and single plane single lever operation.
It should also be considered that as everyone uses an often unknown condition G50 in their Ultima, the G50 box is VERY well engineered and requires little if anu maintenance.
Dog boxes round the corners of the dogs as the mechanical engagement of the gears (especially if downshifting rapidly) is very harsh. The dogs are the castlated sections on the gear and only last a few thousand miles (10k of gentle road use) before a new gear set is required. Rapid downshifts through 4 gears at the end of circuit straights will lead to nasty things like the pic below. This can occur at any time.
You can see the rounding on the broken dog tooth in this pic also. These are just about OK in terms of wear. I've pulled them from my gearbox after 5000 miles looking far worse than that and fit only for the bin.
Bottom line is that sequential shift is an expensive option, and the gearboxes are generally designed to last a couple of races, not the life of yoru GTR. If you do not have the budget of a racing team, you could be looking at a very expensive option, not to mention the availabilty issues of parts etc.
If you are in the UK and going to buy, Quaife are your only sensible option at the slightly more affordable end of the market.
These gearboxes are so complex, and require such fine calibration that even Quaifes dealers (who build hundreds of H pattern gearboxes annually) return them to Quaife for service/repair.
You don't want to be sending your box air freight across the Atlantic annually now do you?
The only Porsche gearbox which is not from a full blown race car which is likley to have dog engagement gears is this one http://www.quaife.co.uk/Porsche-GT3-6-speed-dog-en...
Dog engagement is the ONLY way you can change gear without using the clutch.
How you then select the gears is a completely different matter.
The G50 has an H pattern shift. Setting up a pneumatic or solenoid shifter system to perform such a complex task would be impossible (or at least imposibly unreliable). Therefore a single plane single lever operation is required. To move the slector forks within the gearbox,a barrel is used which is tracked by a number of followers as shown in this animation.
The barrel can connect directly to the forks (as it does in most race car boxes, and this example) or there can be a remote drum, which is what is used in the Ford type boxes used in Caterhams etc.
To understand the difference between this and a conventional H pattern box see this web page:
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/sequential-gearbox1....
So a G50 has two major components missing - dog engagment and single plane single lever operation.
It should also be considered that as everyone uses an often unknown condition G50 in their Ultima, the G50 box is VERY well engineered and requires little if anu maintenance.
Dog boxes round the corners of the dogs as the mechanical engagement of the gears (especially if downshifting rapidly) is very harsh. The dogs are the castlated sections on the gear and only last a few thousand miles (10k of gentle road use) before a new gear set is required. Rapid downshifts through 4 gears at the end of circuit straights will lead to nasty things like the pic below. This can occur at any time.
You can see the rounding on the broken dog tooth in this pic also. These are just about OK in terms of wear. I've pulled them from my gearbox after 5000 miles looking far worse than that and fit only for the bin.
Bottom line is that sequential shift is an expensive option, and the gearboxes are generally designed to last a couple of races, not the life of yoru GTR. If you do not have the budget of a racing team, you could be looking at a very expensive option, not to mention the availabilty issues of parts etc.
If you are in the UK and going to buy, Quaife are your only sensible option at the slightly more affordable end of the market.
These gearboxes are so complex, and require such fine calibration that even Quaifes dealers (who build hundreds of H pattern gearboxes annually) return them to Quaife for service/repair.
You don't want to be sending your box air freight across the Atlantic annually now do you?
Mark,
What are you after here?
I think you just want to relocate the gearbox shifter out of the middle of the car and onto the wheel right? Primarily to release space in the cockpit?
If so then then you can get by with a paddle operated system that still utilises a clutch, this will be significantly cheaper than the Pnuematic Hewland system from RapidGB which is full paddle system ala SMG e.g. clutchless AND also requires regular rebuilds (but it is built with this in mind so these rebuilds are cheaper than a G50).
Call Mark on 07876 498120 and mention my name...
PS, I came a hairsbreath from buying the Red GTR Mark had, it was an absolute bargain for the money that had been spent on it! Glad someone on PH got it as once finished it'll be a track beast!
What are you after here?
I think you just want to relocate the gearbox shifter out of the middle of the car and onto the wheel right? Primarily to release space in the cockpit?
If so then then you can get by with a paddle operated system that still utilises a clutch, this will be significantly cheaper than the Pnuematic Hewland system from RapidGB which is full paddle system ala SMG e.g. clutchless AND also requires regular rebuilds (but it is built with this in mind so these rebuilds are cheaper than a G50).
Call Mark on 07876 498120 and mention my name...
PS, I came a hairsbreath from buying the Red GTR Mark had, it was an absolute bargain for the money that had been spent on it! Glad someone on PH got it as once finished it'll be a track beast!
Hi Rob,
Not really a must at teh moment, ive just ordered some very nice seats, extremely light, great looking and thinner than the standard Ultima seats so issue sorted.
So ill be sticking to the standard H G50 box.
Im a nightmare when i want it just right, god help me when ive got it on the road, the changes ill be making.
thanks for the input and help though. You been out her this week?
Not really a must at teh moment, ive just ordered some very nice seats, extremely light, great looking and thinner than the standard Ultima seats so issue sorted.
So ill be sticking to the standard H G50 box.
Im a nightmare when i want it just right, god help me when ive got it on the road, the changes ill be making.
thanks for the input and help though. You been out her this week?
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