Good, cheap used speakers
Discussion
I currently run an IQAudio Pi-DAC+ and Pi-AMP+ through a pair of ancient Tannoy Mercury M2.5s that I've had for getting on for twenty years. The sound is OK at low volumes, but when turned up a bit they lack bite and the bass is soft, compared to my AKG K550 headphones. Still sound better than a Sonos, though :-)
I'd like to upgrade the speakers to something that's good but doesn't break the bank. Budget is £150 and I don't mind buying used. I've been looking at Castle Isis and MS20i Pearls. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
I'd like to upgrade the speakers to something that's good but doesn't break the bank. Budget is £150 and I don't mind buying used. I've been looking at Castle Isis and MS20i Pearls. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
HardtopManual said:
I currently run an IQAudio Pi-DAC+ and Pi-AMP+ through a pair of ancient Tannoy Mercury M2.5s that I've had for getting on for twenty years. The sound is OK at low volumes, but when turned up a bit they lack bite and the bass is soft, compared to my AKG K550 headphones. Still sound better than a Sonos, though :-)
I'd like to upgrade the speakers to something that's good but doesn't break the bank. Budget is £150 and I don't mind buying used. I've been looking at Castle Isis and MS20i Pearls. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
My Linn Monitors? They're currently 99p on Ebay, inc. stands :-)I'd like to upgrade the speakers to something that's good but doesn't break the bank. Budget is £150 and I don't mind buying used. I've been looking at Castle Isis and MS20i Pearls. Does anyone have any other suggestions?
I bought some Tannoy Revolution R2 floor standers from eBay for £100. Really pleased with them, they work really well with a quality amp from the same era. Nice and detailed with loads of bass even at high volume.
I also splashed on some ProAc studio 150s for my main system and they are sublime but out of your budget sadly.
I also splashed on some ProAc studio 150s for my main system and they are sublime but out of your budget sadly.
HardtopManual said:
I currently run an IQAudio Pi-DAC+ and Pi-AMP+ through a pair of ancient Tannoy Mercury M2.5s that I've had for getting on for twenty years. The sound is OK at low volumes...
<snip>
(my bold)<snip>
I suspect the limiting factor here is not so much your speakers as the Pi-AMP+.
Looking at the spec of the chip used in the amp, I suspect it was not intended to high quality speakers.
The datasheet states:
Continuous output power 25w @ 10% distortion @ 14.4v, 50w @ 10% distortion @ 21v.
0.1% distortion @ half power (21v) 25w.
2 Applications
Mini-Micro Component, Speaker Bar, Docks
After-Market Automotive
CRT TV
Consumer Audio Applications
Your money would be better spent on a 'proper' hi fi amplifier.
Your existing speakers are in fact probably a good match (in price terms) to the Pi amp.
Better speakers are unlikely to improve things, especially if they are 4 ohm speakers (which many are these days).
TonyRPH said:
(my bold)
I suspect the limiting factor here is not so much your speakers as the Pi-AMP+.
Looking at the spec of the chip used in the amp, I suspect it was not intended to high quality speakers.
The datasheet states:
Continuous output power 25w @ 10% distortion @ 14.4v, 50w @ 10% distortion @ 21v.
0.1% distortion @ half power (21v) 25w.
2 Applications
Mini-Micro Component, Speaker Bar, Docks
After-Market Automotive
CRT TV
Consumer Audio Applications
Your money would be better spent on a 'proper' hi fi amplifier.
Your existing speakers are in fact probably a good match (in price terms) to the Pi amp.
Better speakers are unlikely to improve things, especially if they are 4 ohm speakers (which many are these days).
This!I suspect the limiting factor here is not so much your speakers as the Pi-AMP+.
Looking at the spec of the chip used in the amp, I suspect it was not intended to high quality speakers.
The datasheet states:
Continuous output power 25w @ 10% distortion @ 14.4v, 50w @ 10% distortion @ 21v.
0.1% distortion @ half power (21v) 25w.
2 Applications
Mini-Micro Component, Speaker Bar, Docks
After-Market Automotive
CRT TV
Consumer Audio Applications
Your money would be better spent on a 'proper' hi fi amplifier.
Your existing speakers are in fact probably a good match (in price terms) to the Pi amp.
Better speakers are unlikely to improve things, especially if they are 4 ohm speakers (which many are these days).
Late 90s Marantz PM66 amps were always a good match for those Tannoys (a while ago now but I'm sure they were 'voiced' together and sold by the same distributor) and gave great sound for the budget.
Check eBay - they come up regularly at a price that may surprise.
I'd stick with Tannoy, one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world. I'd struggle to name a better one.
As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL
. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.
BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL
. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
Globs said:
I'd stick with Tannoy, one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world. I'd struggle to name a better one.
As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.
BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
So many sweeping statements, so little time to correct them all.As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL
. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
legzr1 said:
So many sweeping statements, so little time to correct them all.
Sorry you can't handle that many concepts or statements, there was a lot of info compressed into that post.I should have dumbed it down. Just go slowly.
Pick out one item you disagree with and I'll explain it for you in terms you should be able to understand.
No, it's fine - I had a look at your website, see what you sell and put 2 and 2 together.
Whilst the Tannoys mentioned in the OP are fine little things I'm guessing there are owners of at least 30 different brands who'd disagree with your suggestion of nothing bettering Tannoy. Just because the Asian market lap up those huge wardrobes costing £20K+ doesn't mean something like the Eltax Monitor IIIi can't compete wait equally priced Tannoy offerings.
I'm also struggling to see the 'benefit' of trying to remove digital clipping (already encoded into the signal) from compressed music files.
I'm prepared to read and listen if you drop the generalisation, sweeping rubbish and slight condescension.
Whilst the Tannoys mentioned in the OP are fine little things I'm guessing there are owners of at least 30 different brands who'd disagree with your suggestion of nothing bettering Tannoy. Just because the Asian market lap up those huge wardrobes costing £20K+ doesn't mean something like the Eltax Monitor IIIi can't compete wait equally priced Tannoy offerings.
I'm also struggling to see the 'benefit' of trying to remove digital clipping (already encoded into the signal) from compressed music files.
I'm prepared to read and listen if you drop the generalisation, sweeping rubbish and slight condescension.
Globs said:
I'd stick with Tannoy, one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world. I'd struggle to name a better one.
As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.
BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
I recommended one type of Eltax speaker (not small), you are talking about something completely different. Having never heard them, how would I know how good they are?As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL
. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
Globs said:
I'd stick with Tannoy, one of the best speaker manufacturers in the world. I'd struggle to name a better one.
B&WKEF
Spendor
Wharfedale (not so much in recent years, although they've still managed the odd gem).
.. not to mention many others.
Globs said:
As for Eltax, I was sold a small pair once and they sounded awful, eventually I took the mid/bass out and found their crossover was a single capacitor - which explained about half of the awfulness.
I've had a few pairs of Eltax speakers pass through my hands over the past few years, and all of them have had proper 2nd order crossovers, complete with inductors etc.Globs said:
Tech: A single cap allows too much LF to get into the tweeter and they are only linear with a tiny movement. The LF flaps the tweeter membrane around giving huge gobs of IM distortion. Awful.
Not really - a capacitor is a low pass filter and does what it says on the tin. It blocks LF from reaching the tweeter.Globs said:
Also the sealed box had no stuffing. I added a crossover and stuffing to make them bearable but that's one brand I'll never buy again.
For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
They must have been the cheapest of the cheap Eltaxes - as the ones I've had have been ported boxes with adequate wadding.For a tiny bit more I then got some similar sized Tannoys, hooked them up and it was bliss, they totally blew away the Eltaxes. Tannoy actually have pride and measure their speakers for distortion as well as FR and it shows.
Globs said:
So my advice is to stick to Tannoy. Consider a new amp - sadly decent amps are few and far between - most are crummy class B transistor that mangle/strangle the sound to various degrees. and for various reasons a competent tube amp or a decent class D might well sound a lot better. There are lots of electronics designers but few competent amp designers.
It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
This paragraph... Really? There are several really good amp designers out there, and besides, the vast majority of modern amps are just variations on the basic emitter follower that has been around for a long time.It always amazes me how much people will pay for designs with known serious flaws (class B, GNFB, transistors etc). For decades we've known that triodes are the most linear devices we have, and their performance is only matched by modern class D chips such as the TDA3116 etc. Totally different ends of technology but both now offering the best sound.
Class D? The tech has come a long way in the past few years, but there's a reason why traditional class A and class B amps still dominate the market in high end fidelity.
Globs said:
However, you could do worse than going active - a lot of compromises disappear with those and there are some good ones around. The idea of pumping music into a passive crossover has long been obsolete LOL . The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.
I suspect that 'going active' is probably hugely beyond the OP's original remit.. The new tech is a modern class D glued to the magnet direct wired to the speaker coil on each driver.Globs said:
BTW old Grundig 'Box' speakers are some of the best ever made, the old ones with rounded corners and a recessed DIN connector in the back. In good condition with a new poly cap they blow most modern stuff away for realism and balance. Better than LS3/5s IMO. Real wool stuffing, air cored inductors, well designed drivers, they looked plain but while we were marvelling at the latest flashy mission speakers the germans were actually listening to far better stuff...
Cheap Class D stuff is reasonably good at putting out power, but as the OP is finding out, it's not clean power (in the case of the amp the OP has).
Enough said I think.
P.S. How's the declip plugin for MPD coming along Graham?
Edited by TonyRPH on Sunday 26th March 12:25
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