Has Hifi improved over the last 10 years?
Discussion
Years ago I was 'into' my hifi, went through Naim and Kef Reference stuff onto hand made power amps from a guy in chesterfield, my car cost less at one point, The only change I've made in the last 10 years was to replace my CD player with a streaming front end, quality DAC and use high def audio where I can, or lossless rips of CD. I'm also not really into home cinema, just good old fashioned stereo.
My power amps are starting to trip the house electrics and the Naim Allan speakers are prob 12 years old. It may be time to think of spending some cash...
So my question is whether things have moved on much, other than the source which I imagine has with 2496 tracks more common. Are £1k amps today delivering what £4K amps delivered 10 years ago or had the tech pretty much reached maturity years ago and inflation etc means I need to spend £4K on an amp to get higher end performance?
Proof will always be in the listening, but if you believe the mags, things only ever get better, and shops just want to sell stuff, so looking for opinions.
My power amps are starting to trip the house electrics and the Naim Allan speakers are prob 12 years old. It may be time to think of spending some cash...
So my question is whether things have moved on much, other than the source which I imagine has with 2496 tracks more common. Are £1k amps today delivering what £4K amps delivered 10 years ago or had the tech pretty much reached maturity years ago and inflation etc means I need to spend £4K on an amp to get higher end performance?
Proof will always be in the listening, but if you believe the mags, things only ever get better, and shops just want to sell stuff, so looking for opinions.
My opinion? Nope. Things may have changed in line with taste but amplifiers are not difficult to make pretty much perfect so unless you have esoteric needs (lots of power, lots of channels, support for latest home cinema codec's) then similar cost will bring similar performance, with more features. As you say, proof is in the listening but I'd start with the whatever the comparible version is to what you have.
I would have said if you are happy with your speakers stick with them, spending the same again now might get you different speakers, with different qualities but the overall quality will be comparible...if you fancy a change (or now have a larger budget or different needs) then by all means go ahead but otherwise you are changing for change sake.
There will always be newer, more powerful amps and newer speakers which are a bit bigger and have a titanium tweeter or whatever...your HiFi will never be 'finished', the key is to get to a stage you are happy with and then enjoy it for what it is rather than chase something you'll never reach.
Just my opinion...happily listening to my 20 year old Yamaha home cinema amp and Mission 752 speakers.
I would have said if you are happy with your speakers stick with them, spending the same again now might get you different speakers, with different qualities but the overall quality will be comparible...if you fancy a change (or now have a larger budget or different needs) then by all means go ahead but otherwise you are changing for change sake.
There will always be newer, more powerful amps and newer speakers which are a bit bigger and have a titanium tweeter or whatever...your HiFi will never be 'finished', the key is to get to a stage you are happy with and then enjoy it for what it is rather than chase something you'll never reach.
Just my opinion...happily listening to my 20 year old Yamaha home cinema amp and Mission 752 speakers.
Simple answer, I don't think so especially where amps and speakers are concerned.
If you like the sound I suggest investing in re-capping the amps (or re-valve if not solid state).
Massive generalisation, granted, but I find modern stuff a little 'lean' sounding. Never really got on with Class D but I hear (!) things have moved on.
I use a mix of Krell, Kef reference and EAD and only really spend relative buttons on 'new' sources to keep up with the next greatest thing. After years of DVD-A and SACD I've sold on the players and discs and returned to flac and silver discs at 16/44 fed into a NOA DAC.
What I've discovered is this: CD done well easily equals overpriced HD thrown together, correctly ripped and tagged CD is a joy to use and listen to and competently set up and positioned speakers sound better than others at 20 times the price simply plonked in the corner.
My only fairly recent revelation in room EQ (for AV) and sub EQ - digital automation really does more than hours and days of twiddling, repositioning and starting from scratch in this regard.
Having said all that, I understand others are very happy with efficient amps driving efficient speakers without the need for 40Kgs of mosfets heating the room and using the electricity of a small developing nation...
If you like the sound I suggest investing in re-capping the amps (or re-valve if not solid state).
Massive generalisation, granted, but I find modern stuff a little 'lean' sounding. Never really got on with Class D but I hear (!) things have moved on.
I use a mix of Krell, Kef reference and EAD and only really spend relative buttons on 'new' sources to keep up with the next greatest thing. After years of DVD-A and SACD I've sold on the players and discs and returned to flac and silver discs at 16/44 fed into a NOA DAC.
What I've discovered is this: CD done well easily equals overpriced HD thrown together, correctly ripped and tagged CD is a joy to use and listen to and competently set up and positioned speakers sound better than others at 20 times the price simply plonked in the corner.
My only fairly recent revelation in room EQ (for AV) and sub EQ - digital automation really does more than hours and days of twiddling, repositioning and starting from scratch in this regard.
Having said all that, I understand others are very happy with efficient amps driving efficient speakers without the need for 40Kgs of mosfets heating the room and using the electricity of a small developing nation...
I bought my Naim and B&W system about 10 years ago. The black boxes were unused, but the newer versions were coming out in a few weeks and I got them at a good price, so they weren't exactly cutting edge even then.
Now, I had my local hi-fi shop come out to the house the other day, to diagnose a problem, and we started talking upgrades (as one might expect), however, to my great surprise he told me that he much prefers the sound of my discontinued 805S speakers compared to the current diamond versions, which are approximately 3 times the price and on demo in his listening room. Furthermore, he said all the chaps at the shop had agreed that the new ones were harsher and brighter and really didn't sound as nice as the old ones.
Now, he may not be the best salesman in the world, but I was pleased to hear that I got a bargain and that the latest thing does not necessarily mean the best.
Now, I had my local hi-fi shop come out to the house the other day, to diagnose a problem, and we started talking upgrades (as one might expect), however, to my great surprise he told me that he much prefers the sound of my discontinued 805S speakers compared to the current diamond versions, which are approximately 3 times the price and on demo in his listening room. Furthermore, he said all the chaps at the shop had agreed that the new ones were harsher and brighter and really didn't sound as nice as the old ones.
Now, he may not be the best salesman in the world, but I was pleased to hear that I got a bargain and that the latest thing does not necessarily mean the best.
I think improvements in source, amp and speakers have been small during the past 10 years. New speaker cone materials come in and go out of fashion but doped paper is still arguably as good as anything more recent.
I think there have been 'value' improvements in the past decade though. Some think the best of the low cost class D crop can perform as well as 'reference' single ended 300B valve gear. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/04...
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/05...
imho room correction has been the only area where whothwhile improvements have been made. Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect, MiniDSP / DIRAC work well and DEQX's driver and room correction is apparently better still but I've not heard it in action yet. http://www.deqx.com/
I think there have been 'value' improvements in the past decade though. Some think the best of the low cost class D crop can perform as well as 'reference' single ended 300B valve gear. http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/04...
http://www.enjoythemusic.com/magazine/equipment/05...
imho room correction has been the only area where whothwhile improvements have been made. Lyngdorf's RoomPerfect, MiniDSP / DIRAC work well and DEQX's driver and room correction is apparently better still but I've not heard it in action yet. http://www.deqx.com/
Edited by Crackie on Thursday 14th September 17:03
Having just upgraded my system, I'd say sound quality wise things probably haven't moved on that much. I replaced my old Marantz amp more for the features than because it didn't sound good. I wanted a better phono stage but I bought my new one as it came with digital inputs and spotify connect more than anything. There are other ways to get streamed music to your old amp but I wanted convenience. My old Tannoy speakers sounded awful with the old amp though. The pairing just didn't work so changed the speakers to match my new setup. It sounds miles better but like I say, i suspect that down to matching and a higher end speaker (not like for like) rather than newer stuff sounding better.
some very interesting comments above
(BTW - my first 'hifi' came from Audioscene in Chesterfield - some 30 + years ago !)
I think that there has been improvement in the digital side of things - i.e. DACs are much better than they used to be. (though you can pay some really silly money !)
Not that much progress in analogue power amps from what I can see.
Speakers - styles change, fads come and go, but they are probably the most non linear part of your system !
I've got a bit of a miss mash system;
Linn Isobariks, fully active driven at the moment by 3 Rotel power amps each.
prior to that, a 6 channel digital x-over, time aligned, driven by an RTA (so the overall effect in room is fully flat)
No pre as such, just a 6 channel 24 position rotary switch .
Source is either the Rega Planar (RIAA pre of my own design), or MacBook pro.
I've not heard anything I like better.
(BTW - my first 'hifi' came from Audioscene in Chesterfield - some 30 + years ago !)
I think that there has been improvement in the digital side of things - i.e. DACs are much better than they used to be. (though you can pay some really silly money !)
Not that much progress in analogue power amps from what I can see.
Speakers - styles change, fads come and go, but they are probably the most non linear part of your system !
I've got a bit of a miss mash system;
Linn Isobariks, fully active driven at the moment by 3 Rotel power amps each.
prior to that, a 6 channel digital x-over, time aligned, driven by an RTA (so the overall effect in room is fully flat)
No pre as such, just a 6 channel 24 position rotary switch .
Source is either the Rega Planar (RIAA pre of my own design), or MacBook pro.
I've not heard anything I like better.
legzr1 said:
With the mention of Naim and Allae (or maybe the op did mean Allan 
) I'd take a punt at Avondale.
Although they weren't the price of a car so....
You were on the money. I had some of their NCC200 (?) boards made into two mono blocks in a nice cases that replaced a NAP250, a NAC82 with an avondale power supply as the preamp and all driving Kef reference 105/3 speakers with a NAIM CDI up front - and I drove a clio 16v at the time. I'm pretty sure it was a close run thing cost wise. ) I'd take a punt at Avondale.Although they weren't the price of a car so....
Thanks everyone The comments seem to justify the question and my suspicion. If avondale are still going I may just get in touch and see if they can recap the power amps and breath some life back in. I recall they did a soft start module which maybe whats going, all I know is if I turn them on together the surge trips the house supply. Some new speaker cable will probably change the tone of the speakers a bit, not necessarily better, just different. It will keep me amused and my bank balance healthy.
I've you've got nothing better to do this weekend, it might be worth paying a visit to the Audio & Visual show in Birmingham and judging for yourself if you consider whether the latest kit is better than what you currently have.
On show will be the Innuos Zenith SE Streamer, Chord Blu MK2 CD player/upscaler and the Chord Dave DAC which, as a combination, is about as good and cutting edge as it gets right now.
Newer doesn't always mean better, despite what the marketing people will have you believe.
As technology advances, their will always be something newer and better in the world of digital. I wouldn't say that speaker technology has advanced that much, if at all, over the last decade.
Refreshing the caps in your power supplies is a good idea, although I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by changing the speaker cables?
Some of the speaker cables and inter-connects are crazy money; the latest idea, that is suppose to give great results over on the Head-Fi/Hi-end audio forum is to use 1m of 16mm2 (battery lead cable)
I would say, focus on the front end (streamer and DAC) as the amps and speakers can only do their best to reproduce what's coming from them.
All advice given IMHO
On show will be the Innuos Zenith SE Streamer, Chord Blu MK2 CD player/upscaler and the Chord Dave DAC which, as a combination, is about as good and cutting edge as it gets right now.
Newer doesn't always mean better, despite what the marketing people will have you believe.
As technology advances, their will always be something newer and better in the world of digital. I wouldn't say that speaker technology has advanced that much, if at all, over the last decade.
Refreshing the caps in your power supplies is a good idea, although I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve by changing the speaker cables?
Some of the speaker cables and inter-connects are crazy money; the latest idea, that is suppose to give great results over on the Head-Fi/Hi-end audio forum is to use 1m of 16mm2 (battery lead cable)
I would say, focus on the front end (streamer and DAC) as the amps and speakers can only do their best to reproduce what's coming from them.
All advice given IMHO
Edited by Ballistic on Thursday 14th September 21:07
Heres Johnny said:
You were on the money. I had some of their NCC200 (?) boards made into two mono blocks in a nice cases that replaced a NAP250, a NAC82 with an avondale power supply as the preamp and all driving Kef reference 105/3 speakers with a NAIM CDI up front - and I drove a clio 16v at the time. I'm pretty sure it was a close run thing cost wise.
Thanks everyone The comments seem to justify the question and my suspicion. If avondale are still going I may just get in touch and see if they can recap the power amps and breath some life back in. I recall they did a soft start module which maybe whats going, all I know is if I turn them on together the surge trips the house supply. Some new speaker cable will probably change the tone of the speakers a bit, not necessarily better, just different. It will keep me amused and my bank balance healthy.
Forgive me, for some reason I had the idea of a new mid-range car in mind when I questioned the value side of things - definitely not meant as a slur or dig Thanks everyone The comments seem to justify the question and my suspicion. If avondale are still going I may just get in touch and see if they can recap the power amps and breath some life back in. I recall they did a soft start module which maybe whats going, all I know is if I turn them on together the surge trips the house supply. Some new speaker cable will probably change the tone of the speakers a bit, not necessarily better, just different. It will keep me amused and my bank balance healthy.
Never heard any Avondale stuff but they seem held in high regard at places like PFM.
Didn't they do something with Arcam CD players too? Maybe something worth tracking down if you fancy a dabble.
I've spent money on the source, I'm sure there are better but I use a audiolab 8200 CDQ
The speaker cable was just to change the sound a bit, like trying a different colour paint on the walls, it's the same wall just looks a bit different. it made sense to me and cheaper than a changing the speakers.
Avondale were tonally like Naim stuff, high on the PRAT, dark silences.. the mono blocks were said to be like the olive Naim mono blocks, can't recall the number, but for a fraction of the price, but plenty in reserve. And yes, they did stuff with Arcam CD players, I think they changed the clock and a few op amps, can't imagine they've done that for a while.
The speaker cable was just to change the sound a bit, like trying a different colour paint on the walls, it's the same wall just looks a bit different. it made sense to me and cheaper than a changing the speakers.
Avondale were tonally like Naim stuff, high on the PRAT, dark silences.. the mono blocks were said to be like the olive Naim mono blocks, can't recall the number, but for a fraction of the price, but plenty in reserve. And yes, they did stuff with Arcam CD players, I think they changed the clock and a few op amps, can't imagine they've done that for a while.
Heres Johnny said:
I've spent money on the source, I'm sure there are better but I use a audiolab 8200 CDQ
The speaker cable was just to change the sound a bit, like trying a different colour paint on the walls, it's the same wall just looks a bit different. it made sense to me and cheaper than a changing the speakers.
Avondale were tonally like Naim stuff, high on the PRAT, dark silences.. the mono blocks were said to be like the olive Naim mono blocks, can't recall the number, but for a fraction of the price, but plenty in reserve. And yes, they did stuff with Arcam CD players, I think they changed the clock and a few op amps, can't imagine they've done that for a while.
A source with a good built in volume control ( like your Audiolab ) is a good plan The speaker cable was just to change the sound a bit, like trying a different colour paint on the walls, it's the same wall just looks a bit different. it made sense to me and cheaper than a changing the speakers.
Avondale were tonally like Naim stuff, high on the PRAT, dark silences.. the mono blocks were said to be like the olive Naim mono blocks, can't recall the number, but for a fraction of the price, but plenty in reserve. And yes, they did stuff with Arcam CD players, I think they changed the clock and a few op amps, can't imagine they've done that for a while.
KEF 105/3 are great too. Can you have the Avondale's checked out ?; any decent service agent will be able to measure the SN ratio ( noise floor ), THD, DC offset, amplitude response, intermodulation distortion. Its also very easy to accurately measure the response of the system in your room. The following two pieces of freeware are superb ( ARTA is used by Genelec, MBL, Beyerdynamic,Visaton, Revox,, Quadral, Samsung, Phillips, Sony, LG ). This can help you optimise setup, speakers position relative to wall/corners etc. Easy to improve in room bass humps and suckouts.
http://www.artalabs.hr/ and http://www.holmacoustics.com/holmimpulse.php
If the room isn't a great shape or you can't site the speakers optimally then one of these is likely to improve things significantly for relatively little outlay. http://www.iglooaudio.co.uk/minidsp-2x4-hd.html?gc...
MiniDSP https://www.minidsp.com/ , DIRAC https://www.dirac.com/company/
If you have the budget then DEQX can make anything sound great; even a pair of crappy £50 PA horns https://www.stereophile.com/content/gob-smacked-de...
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 16th September 09:27
Edited by Crackie on Saturday 16th September 09:37
lufbramatt said:
I do wonder if they shift towards a brighter presentation is to cater for an ageing market who's high frequency hearing isn't as good as it used to be.
If that were the case, the 'older' generations would enjoy brighter presentations. In my reasonable experience they really, really don't. Les at Avondale is said to be getting on a bit so if he's not available, 'Class A' audio and 'Witch Hat' Audio are both ex-Naim employees gone out on their own. Either should be able to check over and recap the OP's amps.
My two pennorth if I may: I had Avondale'd Naim 135 monoblocks which were superb but now on Wyred4sound class D mono blocks. (which I was lent in the first instance) Small, light, barely run warm and sound in a different league in all respects.And I mean all respects. There are many class D designs now, I don't think I'll ever be going back to ye olde amplifier designs.
My two pennorth if I may: I had Avondale'd Naim 135 monoblocks which were superb but now on Wyred4sound class D mono blocks. (which I was lent in the first instance) Small, light, barely run warm and sound in a different league in all respects.And I mean all respects. There are many class D designs now, I don't think I'll ever be going back to ye olde amplifier designs.
Les is fine!
Darren at Class A is brilliant. He has serviced some of my gear. However, he is one of the few Naim factory approved service agents and so will NOT have anything to do with Avondale boxes or modded Naim gear.
Mark at Witch Hat is very much in favour of modding and Avondale.
Darren at Class A is brilliant. He has serviced some of my gear. However, he is one of the few Naim factory approved service agents and so will NOT have anything to do with Avondale boxes or modded Naim gear.
Mark at Witch Hat is very much in favour of modding and Avondale.
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