Speaker Cables...

[mikeveal]

TonyRPH said:

Mike, I completely agree with you, however there are cases out there which demonstrate that cables do change the sound.

I'm not saying that they don't. I'm saying that the difference will due to the resistance of the cable, not the inductance or the capacitance. Put another way, an expensive cable will sound exactly the same as a cheap cable of the same resistance.

You could choose to buy a solid gold cable, or a fat but cheap copper one. If the resistance is the same, they will sound the same, other properties of the cable will have no effect in the audio band.

If the load presented by your speaker could be represented by the sun, then the reactive (inductive/ capacitive) properties of the cable would be represented by a bloke standing on it's surface (prob wearing flame retandant undies) and waving an LED torch.
Standing on the surface of the earth, you really won't be able to perceive the torch. Increase change the resistance (move the earth closer or further from the sun) and you'll instantly spot the difference.

I use 80 strand OFC from Maplins, all my cable is ~20 years old. I'd estimate that it's good enough for 5 or 6m runs without adding more than 1% resistance to my speaker load. The ends don't really oxidise. It wasn't bell wire cheap, but neither am I paying for silver plated (stupid idea) plutonium resistant cable.
Living in a mid terrace, I'm not allowed to turn the dial up anyway!

TonyRPH said:

The early Naim amps are a classic example of this - they were designed to work with a specific cable, and can sound 'wrong' (or even oscillate badly) if presented with the "wrong" type of cable.

Tut-tut. Insufficient gain-phase margin, that's sloppy.

[hyphen]

So the £560 Naim Power-line mains cables.

From a technical standpoint, is there any merit to them?

[mikeveal]

This?
https://www.naimaudio.com/product/power-line-0
Lets examine their claims:

Naim said:

* Thermoset resin plug cases with floating pins for superior electrical contact

Standard contacts like the ones you'll be plugging this into perfectly capable of shifting 13A, that's 3KW! If you require more than this, a standard UK mains plug shouldn't be used

Naim said:

* 4mm2 copper conductors with individual dielectric insulation

From memory that's fatter than standard mains cable. At 13A there might be half a volt less drop over this cable. Please bear in mind that the mains supply to your property is 230V -6%+10%.

Naim said:

Rubber outer sheath for high levels of inherent mechanical damping

Could be important if you want to isolate your record player from fans in your amp, your CD player, hard disk in your media player etc.

Naim said:

2m length for added flexibility with installations

Can't really argue with that.

Naim said:

Completing the Power-Line is an IEC inlet plug that continues many of the decoupling and electrical continuity themes of the mains plug. It features floating contacts, combined decoupling and clamping, double wiper contacts and case eddy current suppression.

The floating contact thing I've already covered.
Case eddy current suppression? Well Faraday's law states that any change of current flowing induces a change of magentic flux and visa versa. So alternating current in your mains cable creates a magnetic field and the magnetic field creates a current flowing in any conductor that the field cuts through, that current is known as an eddie current...

An eddie current is a loss. It will cause the material in which it flows to warm. The eddie current itself has a magnetic field too, it opposes the original field and acts to cancel it.

So if the shield of the IEC plug is conductive, an eddie current could flow in it. BUT, there are two current carrying conductors in this mains cable, Live and Neutral. The current in one is equal and opposite to the other, so at any distance from the pair the magnetic field from one exactly cancels the field from the other.

This isn't true if you look at the field between the two conductors but as you move away the fields cancel. At the IEC housing, the field would be minimal and any losses due to eddie currents would be insignificant.

So what do they mean? Dunno, the claim makes no sense, and has no obvious benefit, hard to prove wrong. Give's your hair added 'je ne sais quoi.'

Is it worth £560. Well, if you think it looks good and are happy to pay that, go for it. But I wouldn't expect it to make your hifi sound any different, unless there is something else in there like mains filtering that they are not telling us about.

[anonymous-user]

mikeveal said:

But I wouldn't expect it to make your hifi sound any different, unless there is something else in there like mains filtering that they are not telling us about.

I'd assumed (given the price) there was mains filtering going on, but it seems not. So the following review just sounds like the worst kind of bullst:

Needless to say, on the amp the PowerLine proved a contender. Its core quality is wide frequency response with great, deep and very controlled bass. This register appears clearly treated with incredible texture. You can follow any bass line with the sort of evidence that's not so frequent. Impacts are very physical. You really feel the power and slam. The midrange is completely open and with a fantastic sensation of energy yet no stress. The treble is luminous, clear, extended, again free of stress but very persuasive. The rhythmic abilities of the PowerLine are fine as you would expect from any Naim product. The beat is so well established that you can't confuse it with any melodic line. If you want a foot-tapping product, this is it. Finally, the imaging criterium isn't the least of it. Each disc is reconstituted with a very honest and natural scale. The PowerLine is not blowing up the soundstage but keeps everything on a very human size. Its main points here are precision, pinpoint positioning and an almost tactile feel of the scenery.


Did RedTrident ever get round to testing those digital interconnects from the 'cables - can you tell the difference?' thread?

[benz0]

a rhythmic cable. F me I've heard it all now.

[TonyRPH]

mikeveal said:

TonyRPH said:

Mike, I completely agree with you, however there are cases out there which demonstrate that cables do change the sound.

I'm not saying that they don't. I'm saying that the difference will due to the resistance of the cable, not the inductance or the capacitance. Put another way, an expensive cable will sound exactly the same as a cheap cable of the same resistance.

You could choose to buy a solid gold cable, or a fat but cheap copper one. If the resistance is the same, they will sound the same, other properties of the cable will have no effect in the audio band.
<snip>

Mike, I think we are in agreement over this, but don't forget about the cables that have Zobel networks (plus other passives) in them and so on - I've never had the opportunity to audition one, but theory suggests these could affect the sound to some degree - again, depending on the amplifier design and so on.

mikeveal said:

I use 80 strand OFC from Maplins, all my cable is ~20 years old. I'd estimate that it's good enough for 5 or 6m runs without adding more than 1% resistance to my speaker load. The ends don't really oxidise. It wasn't bell wire cheap, but neither am I paying for silver plated (stupid idea) plutonium resistant cable.
Living in a mid terrace, I'm not allowed to turn the dial up anyway!

That Maplin cable is pretty good, I have used it myself on and off, although I do find it somewhat unwieldy. It seems to be exactly the same as the old QED79 strand cable that was sold back in the 80's.

mikeveal said:

TonyRPH said:

The early Naim amps are a classic example of this - they were designed to work with a specific cable, and can sound 'wrong' (or even oscillate badly) if presented with the "wrong" type of cable.

Tut-tut. Insufficient gain-phase margin, that's sloppy.

lol yes, but that's what can happen when you try to engineer a specific sound I suppose.

[mikeveal]

benz0 said:

a rhythmic cable. F me I've heard it all now.

I'd be so much richer if I just thought it was acceptable to con money from gulls.

[Crackie]

gizlaroc said:

But what you are saying is as long as you make them all the same they will sound the same?

That is like the guys who say "if you set 5 power amps up to match the limits of the weakest, there will be no difference." or "If all DACs are set up to be flat/correct they will all sound the same" etc. etc.

Psychoacoustic effects change our perception enormously. Heavy products are perceived to perform better than flimsy lightweight products, we have preconceived ideas about how good a product is way before we've heard it, confirmation bias https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confirmation_bias reinforces those preconceptions. Post purchase rationalisation https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Choice-supportive_bi... helps people to justify spending over the odds for 'ordinary' performance too.

The harsh reality is that, whilst differences between speakers are enormous and easy to detect, many listeners can't reliably differentiate between entry level and high end electronics.

http://matrixhifi.com/ENG_contenedor_ppec.htm

http://redspade-audio.blogspot.co.uk/2010/06/blind...

I've been lucky to have worked with some very well respected Hi-Fi loudspeaker designers over the years; its was always interesting to hear the thoughts of the designers from Meridian, B&W, KEF, Celestion, Mission, EPOS, TDL, Acoustic Energy, Wharfedale, etc etc on the subject. Without naming names, I recall they all had a healthy lack of respect, bordering on contempt, for 'high end' cabling.

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 19th October 13:08

[gizlaroc]

I use ring mains for speaker cable, so I really don't subscribe to spending money on cables makes them better, but I have swapped out cables before that I have been given that I simply didn't like.

Thinking along the lines of DMN, that red and blue stuff from a few years back that I thought I would like as it was solid core like ring mains, but that did lose bass. Same with that Nordost flatline stuff, I was given some of that when I used to sell hifi back in the day and it was nasty. I really hate a forward sounding hifi, Naim I can't bare, Cyrus the same, and Bryston, so if something even slightly enhances that I will notice. 99% of cables you don't as they do what they are meant to do, but a few of them almost take something away.

But I agree, take 300 cables and you might find 1 or 2 in there that do sound slightly different to the other 297. But that still means I don't think that all cables sound the same, whether they are just not specced well enough or whatever, but when people say all sound the same I don't agree.

[gizlaroc]

Just looked at those links.

I'm not surprised they can't tell a difference, if I sit in a room full of people on an upright chair concentrating on kit you only hear very obvious differences, of which there really shouldn't be any.

However, swapping around pre amps, dacs etc. and listening at night, some get you, some don't. I don't know why some I like where as others I don't as they all sound pretty damned similar, but it's just the way it is.
Dacs/pre amps I have like over the years, Meridian 568, Arcam A22, Caiman Beresford, because they all tend to roll off the top end, which I like. It is subtle, but when you listen late at night it makes all the difference.
Compare that with Naim which I hated, I mean really hated, which was the complete opposite.

Would I hear those difference in a room like that on speakers I am not used to and probably listening to tracks I don't know inside out? Probably not.

[Crackie]

gizlaroc said:

I use ring mains for speaker cable, so I really don't subscribe to spending money on cables makes them better, but I have swapped out cables before that I have been given that I simply didn't like.

Thinking along the lines of DMN, that red and blue stuff from a few years back that I thought I would like as it was solid core like ring mains, but that did lose bass. Same with that Nordost flatline stuff, I was given some of that when I used to sell hifi back in the day and it was nasty. I really hate a forward sounding hifi, Naim I can't bare, Cyrus the same, and Bryston, so if something even slightly enhances that I will notice. 99% of cables you don't as they do what they are meant to do, but a few of them almost take something away.

But I agree, take 300 cables and you might find 1 or 2 in there that do sound slightly different to the other 297. But that still means I don't think that all cables sound the same, whether they are just not specced well enough or whatever, but when people say all sound the same I don't agree.

I have a very similar position. Cables can make a noticeable difference but imho those that do are either badly engineered or have been deliberately been engineered to deviate from neutral.

Entry level, low cost cables can have ideal measured performance ( assuming their diameter isn't too small ).

Edited by Crackie on Thursday 19th October 13:12

[Maxf]

I always thought hi-fi racks changing the sound was a load of rubbish. However, 'we' bought a sideboard to replace a rather sturdy side table I'd been using for my kit... I genuinely thought my system wasn't wired up properly with it on the new sideboard. This weekend's project is to make sure it's as sturdy as it can be. Sadly I'm not allowed a hi-fi rack as 'the lounge will look like a boys bedroom'.

I wouldn't have believed the difference until last night. Maybe it's changed room acoustics, but something has made a hell of a difference; sounds less clear, most telling is that the volume needs to be at least 2 or 3 points higher to sound the same as it did a day ago.

I was in the same camp with speaker cables, but who knows now.