PC sound - bookshelves or desktop speakers?

PC sound - bookshelves or desktop speakers?

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Discussion

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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I used to hear people raving about AudioEngine active speakers a few years back. That would solve your issues with needing amps, DACs and ensure that the electronics are perfectly matched to the speakers.

That said, I've got a computer system comprising of a NAD D3020, Beresford Caiman II DAC and some Dali Zensor 1 bookshelf speakers. It doesn't have to be that combination, but my point is, any decent hifi bookshelf/amp/DAC system will likely do you fine.

About the speakers, I would mount them on proper speaker stands off the desk as I found when I had speakers on the desk, they would resonate and somewhat spoil the sound. I have mine mounted on some speaker stands that bring my speakers to head height when sitting at my desk which obviously gives the best results. The problem with floorstanders as someone else suggested is that if you're sitting upright at a desk, they might be too low.

Either of those options will blow any desktop computer system into the weeds by an enormous margin, I would have thought.

Stan the Bat

8,843 posts

211 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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To smithyithy.

Nice 60% keyboard as well, what make is it?

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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TonyRPH said:
In his OP, the OP stated that audio quality wasn't a high priority.

I suspect that if he has a modern motherboard with a modern audio chipset, he'd be hard pressed to tell the difference between an aftermarket DAC and the on board sound.

You can even buy small USB DACs for around £10 or so from China - and the performance from them is pretty amazing.

Example 1

Or slightly more - £21

Example 2

ETA: Added a quick test I just did on a £5 Chinese USB DAC (I think the chip is a PCM2704..)

For what it's worth, I have both of the DACs mentioned above - and I just measured the £21 version too - it measures almost identical.

Frequency response:



THD etc. (ignore the noise figures, the various cables were just draped across my bench amongst other kit)





Edited by TonyRPH on Tuesday 21st August 13:47
DACs are a funny one I find. I always wanted a Dragonfly DAC for my phone / iPad but instead bought one of these Chinese ones with a renowned DAC chip inside (TDA something or other), but I couldn’t really hear any difference between that and the headphone out on the iPad. I’m not sure that this is necessarily a criticism of that particular DAC, but more a fact that the iPad actually already has a decent onboard DAC.

When I got my NAD D3020, one of the selling points of it for me was the fact it was a DAC, headphone amp and speaker amp in one small box (to get rid of 3 boxes cluttering up my desktop). My feeling was this not especially inexpensive box should have a reasonable quality DAC. However, when I compared it with the Caiman II DAC I was planning to sell, I was surprised to find it clearly outperformed the built in DAC on the NAD (subjectively). Surprised because I was expecting little or no difference. I honestly kind of wanted the NAD to win, but it was an obvious difference, annoying really as I’d hoped to cut out clutter on my desk! I ended up keeping it.

I’ve had a fair few other DACs and they have made varying degrees of difference, but in the past I’ve felt them sometimes to be overrated in some ways, but back then onboard stuff was very poor at times. I think a good DAC can make a difference but I think most these days will technically ‘measure’ well. Mine may have some kind of tuning, the maker of my DAC makes a point of it sounding ‘analogue’ which suggests that he has a preference for vinyl type sound, which some may prefer. Having heard vinyl a few times over the years, it does possess a certain quality that I can’t put my finger on that digital lacks; likely some kind of harmonic distortion which results in a pleasing sound. This would arguably not be ideal for a DAC but it’s the only explanation I have. It’s also possible it could just have a louder/hotter output which might be fooling my ears into thinking its better, but once the seeds have been planted wink

It is surprising what you can get nowadays though for little money. My setup was well under £1K brand new and it compares favourably with much more expensive stuff from a bygone era, as in, arguably better! My mate has an Arcam DAC, Naim amp and Rega speakers, and I may be biased but mine honestly sounds better, his would have been a seriously expensive system back in the day.

I just paid £240 for my B&W P7 wireless headphones and they are stunning for a pair of headphones that has its own DAC, amps, batteries and wireless tech, and they can be used anywhere. My mobile phone and these headphones have become a stunning portable hifi system that I absolutely love using.

Hifi kind of mirrors cars in a way, the technological advances have brought prices right down for some pretty stunning sound quality, almost like you’re getting ‘supercar performance for Golf R money’ and without any of the fuss. Though in a way, it has taken some of the magic out of the hobby, because it’s easy to get good results nowadays.

Sorry for rambling on. Your post made me reflect!

Turn7

23,502 posts

220 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Creative Gigaworks T40 here, one of the best PC related things Ive ever bought.

Brillinat sound and great stereo seperation,,,,

smithyithy

7,192 posts

117 months

Wednesday 22nd August 2018
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Stan the Bat said:
To smithyithy.

Nice 60% keyboard as well, what make is it?
Thanks dude beer

I think the one in that pic is my KBD75, which is actually a 75%. It's a custom kit from KBDFans based in China: https://kbd.fans/collections/diy-kit/products/kbd7... that I built about a year ago - has Zealio switches and the keycap set is called GMK 9009..



..Although I do currently have a fair few other custom boards including some 60%:













I often forget that the custom mechanical keyboard thing probably seems crazy to people that haven't seen or heard of it laugh but if you're interested, check out https://www.reddit.com/r/MechanicalKeyboards/

tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
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Those keyboards are something else...I know there's some odd fetishes on these forums, and that's right up there.

GravelBen said:
tenohfive said:
YIf I can find a short (less than 200mm) enough pair
Do you have space to put them on their side? Might open the options up a bit.
Just about as the desk is about 1m wide - but then that won't offer much stereo separation. Most bookshelves seem to be in the 250-260mm range, so just under 500mm separation from 400mm away. That sounds a little problematic?

It's pretty annoying, if the keyboard tray was more central on the desk I'd get away with speakers either side of the monitor. I've considered either raising it or wall mounting the monitor on a cantilever stand but that'll mess with viewing angles, distance and probably neck comfort too. I don't like that the monitor position is forcing me to compromise on sound, despite not being an audiophile.

The Presonus Eris 3.5's are the front runner amongst the actives. Given the price (£85) that could also allow either a DAC or pocket money towards a set of wireless gaming cans - I really fancy the SteelSeries Arctis 7's if they drop down below £100.

Passives wise, either Monitor Audio Monitor 50's (stretching budget) or Wharfedale DX-2's.
To give myself options I'm keeping an eye out for the Cambridge Audio Topaz AM1 second hand - it seems fairly common and is cheap so I'm hoping it'll be regularly available as people upgrade. If I can get one for similar money to a new cheap Chinese mini-amp I'll be happy.


TonyRPH

12,963 posts

167 months

Thursday 23rd August 2018
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TameRacingDriver said:
DACs are a funny one I find. I always wanted a Dragonfly DAC for my phone / iPad but instead bought one of these Chinese ones with a renowned DAC chip inside (TDA something or other), but I couldn’t really hear any difference between that and the headphone out on the iPad. I’m not sure that this is necessarily a criticism of that particular DAC, but more a fact that the iPad actually already has a decent onboard DAC.
Probably TDA1541 or TDA1543 (the 1543 usually in 'non oversampling' mode - good for distortion!)

I believe that the iPad (some models anyway) does indeed have a reasonably good DAC. (Although I've not had the opportunity to measure / audition one)

I have several DACs - mostly home built cheap Chinese kits (with modifications) and compared to my 'reference' Audiolab Q DAC - there's no real difference between any of them in terms of detail etc., but of course there are subtle (and sometimes not so subtle) tonal differences, which can be changed with tuning anyway.

TameRacingDriver said:
When I got my NAD D3020, one of the selling points of it for me was the fact it was a DAC, headphone amp and speaker amp in one small box (to get rid of 3 boxes cluttering up my desktop). My feeling was this not especially inexpensive box should have a reasonable quality DAC. However, when I compared it with the Caiman II DAC I was planning to sell, I was surprised to find it clearly outperformed the built in DAC on the NAD (subjectively). Surprised because I was expecting little or no difference. I honestly kind of wanted the NAD to win, but it was an obvious difference, annoying really as I’d hoped to cut out clutter on my desk! I ended up keeping it.
That doesn't surprise me - the Caiman DACs are pretty good and a dedicated DAC vs. an all in one... There will always be some compromises in the all in one.

TameRacingDriver said:
I’ve had a fair few other DACs and they have made varying degrees of difference, but in the past I’ve felt them sometimes to be overrated in some ways, but back then onboard stuff was very poor at times. I think a good DAC can make a difference but I think most these days will technically ‘measure’ well. Mine may have some kind of tuning, the maker of my DAC makes a point of it sounding ‘analogue’ which suggests that he has a preference for vinyl type sound, which some may prefer. Having heard vinyl a few times over the years, it does possess a certain quality that I can’t put my finger on that digital lacks; likely some kind of harmonic distortion which results in a pleasing sound. This would arguably not be ideal for a DAC but it’s the only explanation I have. It’s also possible it could just have a louder/hotter output which might be fooling my ears into thinking its better, but once the seeds have been planted wink
You are correct that most of them measure well these days - most of the better ones usually extending the limits of the test equipment (with a few exceptions).

The filter in the DAC can be tuned, and to achieve an 'analogue' sound it's quite common to roll off the top end response to make it sound 'warmer'.
And of course, a lot of vinyl stuff has a limited top end response anyway. (both albums and the playback hardware)

TameRacingDriver said:
It is surprising what you can get nowadays though for little money.
<snip>
Hifi kind of mirrors cars in a way, the technological advances have brought prices right down for some pretty stunning sound quality, almost like you’re getting ‘supercar performance for Golf R money’ and without any of the fuss. Though in a way, it has taken some of the magic out of the hobby, because it’s easy to get good results nowadays.
<snip>
Agreed.
One only has to have a casual listen to the small systems from Denon etc. to realise how good low end electronics are now. Pair them with a decent set of speakers and the results can be surprising.

Sorry OP - thread drift!



tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Sunday 26th August 2018
quotequote all
Well I'm moving the goal posts again as a change in circumstances means I have more room than originally planned - I can get away with normally sized bookshelf speakers. Although I'm still strangely drawn to the Monitor Audio Monitor 50's - I just like the aesthetics.

Anyway.

Option 1 - actives:
There's a pair of refurbed Q BT3's in budget currently. That seems to be the leading option. I just wanted to check two things:

1. If I added a sub to the BT3's, would it need to be an active sub and will that limit my choices in the budget sub realm, or can it just use a 'normal,' sub suc as some of the cheaper £100 Yamaha ones on RS currently?
2. If I look to add a pair of wireless headphones (Arctis 7's firmly in my crosshairs) will there be any issues with connections etc?

Option 2 - passives:
I'm looking at Q3020's or MA Monitor 50's, mostly because both are solid performers and would look good on the desk. I'm looking at some sort of SMSL amp or AMP/DAC combo. I'm just confused as to what will run a sub as well. I know something like the AD18 will do everything and is well regarded, but once bookshelves are added I'm well over budget. Would it be cheaper going for a lower priced model and adding the £10 DAC TonyRPH linked? And how can I tell which will work with a sub?

Thanks for the patience everyone - my head is spinning, and I know realistically any of the options I'm considering will be a massive upgrade on what I currently have.

TonyRPH

12,963 posts

167 months

Sunday 26th August 2018
quotequote all

I'm a bit of an audiophile, and I can heartily recommend the BT3's (I have a pair myself) - they will require an active sub, but the bass is good anyway!

The BT3's will easily outperform any speaker attached to an SMSL 'Class D' amplifier (despite what some on here might try and tell you..).


tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Sunday 26th August 2018
quotequote all
Grrr. I was just about to approach SWMBO and have that awkward conversation about how much my life would be enriched by something I don't strictly need and which involves not an insignificant amount of expenditure when I realised that RS aren't actually selling the BT-3's - they've got a listing and a price for them refurbed but don't actually have the option to buy.

https://www.richersounds.com/q-acoustics-qbt3-1.ht...

tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Friday 31st August 2018
quotequote all
Quick update:

I've finally made the call to go for passive speakers. I just couldn't find any studio monitors/actives in budget that didn't look every bit as cheap as the £15 Logitech specials, or that didn't have a good chunk of user reviews mentioning issues (Mackies/Presonus) whilst the QA BT-3's are looking too difficult to get hold of.

On the bookshelf front I've narrowed it down to Monitor 50's or Q3010i's. I want to see both in the flesh before making any decisions as my concern with the 3010's is that whilst fairly short, they're pretty deep. But I like the looks of both.

Am I right in saying that traditionally Monitor Audio speakers tend to be quite clear and bright, whereas Q's offer less clarity but a more forgiving performance in their lower end speakers?
If so, all else being equal for an immersive gaming experience (putting music to one side for a second) what would peoples preference be?

I've still not picked out an amp yet mind. I probably will look at one of the SMSL offerings.I'm also set on being able to connect a budget/second hand sub as I'm aware that any small bookshelf won't offer the greatest bass response, particularly with being unable to put them close to a rear wall - the desk backs onto a window.

Edited by tenohfive on Friday 31st August 13:37

smithyithy

7,192 posts

117 months

Friday 31st August 2018
quotequote all
I can't comment on the specifics of the sound dude but I've always found https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/ really useful for advice and info

TonyRPH

12,963 posts

167 months

Friday 31st August 2018
quotequote all
Bit over budget but active speakers - don't know how they sound

You could possibly audition them at Richer Sounds.


tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Friday 31st August 2018
quotequote all
smithyithy said:
I can't comment on the specifics of the sound dude but I've always found https://www.reddit.com/r/audiophile/ really useful for advice and info
Cheers, I've stuck a post up there.

TonyRPH said:
Bit over budget but active speakers - don't know how they sound
You could possibly audition them at Richer Sounds.
There's not much info on Tibo's but I'm seriously considering audtioning the MA's and Q's mentioned above so I could look at doing the same with them.

I did have a bit of an idea on the amp front at least - my AVR is within reach, and having checked the manual I can add a second zone using the Rear Surround terminals. I'm not planning on going beyond 5.1 with that AVR so those terminals wouldn't be used ordinarily. I just won't be able to add a sub.
I'm tempted to give that a go in the short term as it means I can get sound, and the amp can be added as funds allow at a later date. I presume the built in DAC will be much more effective than anything I can afford right now too.

tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Tuesday 4th September 2018
quotequote all
Quick update on this thread, and (hopefully) one last question.

I ended up getting a pair of Q Acoustics 3010i's. They're a bit slimmer but deeper than the older model and sitting on my desk they look just...lovely. I know I shouldn't comment on aesthetics over acoustics, but it doesn't do any harm to have a pair of lookers.

They're connected to the second zone of my AVR which it seems can operate independently provided it has an analog input from the PC (see more below.) I think that's going to save me the cost of an amp which is a bonus.

Sound wise they aren't run in yet but they sound deeper, more forgiving and a bit less bright than my Bronze 1's. I really like the sound. Having both in the same room I've been able to compare music mid song and I really like both but in different ways - the honesty in the vocals of the MA's is great on some tracks, but for comfortable easy listening the 3010i's really do seem to be able to make most music sound great to my non-audiophile ears.

So - technical question:
The manual says the AVR can't take an optical/HDMI in for Zone 2 playback, analog only (albeit I can still use the AVR as a source - HEOS app works fine for music playback, so Tidal/Spotify is all good - this will be my music playback sources.)
I want to connect my PC. I could run a 3.5mm to RCA cable in which I presume would utilise the motherboards DAC. Is there any benefit in getting a Chinese special DAC from Amazon etc? Any difference in quality between RCA to RCA vs 3.5mm to RCA? Or if I got a DAC with an optical out would the AVR recognise that the conversion has taken place or just throw a wobbler and refuse to accept it as a Zone 2 source?

TonyRPH

12,963 posts

167 months

Wednesday 5th September 2018
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tenohfive said:
<snip>
So - technical question:
The manual says the AVR can't take an optical/HDMI in for Zone 2 playback, analog only (albeit I can still use the AVR as a source - HEOS app works fine for music playback, so Tidal/Spotify is all good - this will be my music playback sources.)
I want to connect my PC. I could run a 3.5mm to RCA cable in which I presume would utilise the motherboards DAC. Is there any benefit in getting a Chinese special DAC from Amazon etc? Any difference in quality between RCA to RCA vs 3.5mm to RCA? Or if I got a DAC with an optical out would the AVR recognise that the conversion has taken place or just throw a wobbler and refuse to accept it as a Zone 2 source?
The 3.5mm will very likely introduce buzz / hum in the speakers, because of earth loops etc. between the PC and the A/V amp.

You need a DAC that has optical in (assuming your PC has an optical out port) and then the RCA cables will run from DAC to amp.

The benefit of using optical, is that you get electrical isolation.

Also - you can run quite a good length of optical 'cable' enabling you to place the DAC close to your amp, keeping the RCA cables as short as possible.

Alternately:

You could use a USB DAC with optical out into the AMP however your AMP would need to be able to run the zone 2 from a digital input (in your recent post you imply that this won't work).

I would just try one of the DACs I linked to recently - the one with USB in --> RCA out. It still has both COAX and OPTICAL outputs anyway, so gives you plenty of freedom to experiment with OPTICAL to your AMP (if it will support an optical input to zone 2).

You could try:

PC ---> USB --> this Chinese DAC --> RCA ---> AMP.

However the above may result in buzz as well, due to lack of electrical isolation.

Ideally you want PC ---> OPTICAL ---> DAC ---> RCA ---> AMP.




Edited by TonyRPH on Wednesday 5th September 08:50

tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Wednesday 5th September 2018
quotequote all
That makes sense - thanks. I'd already ordered a long optical cable before I realised I needed an analog input, so I've now ordered this DAC and a short RCA cable to connect it all up. I went for that DAC largely for convenience - I've got a USB hub nearby (power only) and it's a less obtrusive cable than a DC in.
Will post back when I've got it all setup.

This hifi stuff is quite addictive - I've never been that bothered about my music, but having a half decent setup for the PC is making me listen to a tonne more music.
I'm having to resist the urge to get one of the dirt cheap amps I was considering above and a pair of Diamond 9.0's or similar for my living room TV (that's the cheap one - proper setup is in it's own room) but I want it to be connected as multi-room via HEOS. That basically means trying to pick up a Denon X1400H second hand, or using one of their standalone speakers and using that as a soundbox.

TameRacingDriver

18,048 posts

271 months

Wednesday 5th September 2018
quotequote all
tenohfive said:
This hifi stuff is quite addictive - I've never been that bothered about my music, but having a half decent setup for the PC is making me listen to a tonne more music.
yes

It’s quite revelatory for those previously uninterested to hear their music played through a really good hifi system / headphones for the first time. It certainly can be addictive, so you have to watch for ‘upgraditis’ where people keep spending ever increasing amounts of money to keep getting that ‘high’ as you do eventually get used to it (and the performance improvements reduce dramatically, and quickly!)

I actually find it helps to have something a bit lesser to listen to so the hifi stuff remains a treat. I listen to a pair of 25 quid bluetooth buds during work time and it makes the home setups sound a treat!

I guess its a bit like driving a crap daily driver so you can appreciate your better car.

TonyRPH

12,963 posts

167 months

Wednesday 5th September 2018
quotequote all
tenohfive said:
That makes sense - thanks. I'd already ordered a long optical cable before I realised I needed an analog input, so I've now ordered this DAC and a short RCA cable to connect it all up. I went for that DAC largely for convenience - I've got a USB hub nearby (power only) and it's a less obtrusive cable than a DC in.
Will post back when I've got it all setup..
<snip>
You haven't said (I don't think) but does your motherboard have optical out? Otherwise that DAC will be useless to you.


tenohfive

Original Poster:

6,276 posts

181 months

Wednesday 5th September 2018
quotequote all
It does. I've tested the connection from PC to AVR via optical whilst I wait for the DAC to arrive - all fine. It won't allow me to use the optical as a source for Zone 2 but will happily playback in Zone 1.