Power cables (for amp)
Discussion
Tony1963 said:
Steven_RW said:
If the power cable from socket to amp is important - why not just wire the mains directly to the amp? Other than the inability to turn it off does it not take out one component?
Because it’s illegal. Not to mention 'exotic' fuses.
TonyRPH said:
Well, a few 'exotic' power cables I've seen would not meet British Standards.
Not to mention 'exotic' fuses.
That’s not really the point. We can all break the law, no problem at all. But developing, manufacturing, proving, testing etc all take time and money. I don’t buy illegal cables, as simple as that. Illegal fuses? Nope. If a cable doesn’t meet the required standards, people are going out of their way to buy them. Not to mention 'exotic' fuses.
legzr1 said:
Visited a friend today who is well into mains treatment, regeneration and associated cabling. I’m not convinced and maintain £1000 spent on better speakers or room EQ makes more sense than the same amount spent on ONE 1M IEC cable...
So, I’ve returned home with a bag full of Furutech and other ‘posh’ cables with huge plugs (with Rhodium plated pins all containing gold plated fuses).
All my equipment comes with off-board power supplies (pre, two mono amps and the network streamer) so the posh mains cables will connect the PSU to the mains and use the standard umbilical cords from PSU to equipment.
Will they be better? No different? Worse?
Got them for a week or so.
I’ll be honest. No bias as they’re not mine and will be returned either way.
I’ll update if anyone is interested / still reading this thread.
Good stuff legzr1.....looking forward to your feedback comments.So, I’ve returned home with a bag full of Furutech and other ‘posh’ cables with huge plugs (with Rhodium plated pins all containing gold plated fuses).
All my equipment comes with off-board power supplies (pre, two mono amps and the network streamer) so the posh mains cables will connect the PSU to the mains and use the standard umbilical cords from PSU to equipment.
Will they be better? No different? Worse?
Got them for a week or so.
I’ll be honest. No bias as they’re not mine and will be returned either way.
I’ll update if anyone is interested / still reading this thread.
Your friend, who uses mains regeneration, does he use on one the established names? PS Audio, Isotek, Accuphase or an alternative? Have you had opportunity to listen to his system with and without regen being used??
Edited by Crackie on Wednesday 19th February 10:17
On mains regeneration;
In basic terms, your "dirty" mains is rectified to DC, and then fed to an 'amplifier' which is then modulated by a 50Hz sine wave, to produce 240V AC.
So the regen device itself would also need a clean AC source to perform at it's best.
Your amplifier;
Has a step down transformer, which then rectifies the resulting AC creating DC rails (usually split rails so e.g. +50vDC and -50vDC with respect to ground).
Because the transformer in your amplifier is a step down process (for a typical amplifier of ~100w or so it will be a ratio of 3:1) all incoming mains borne noise is automatically reduced by a factor of 3:1 (240vAC in 70vAC out) - and then of course this is rectified and smoothed by (usually) huge capacitors.
TLDR;
Your regen device is going to be just as prone to mains borne noise as your amplifier (and probably more so because it's a 1:1 process).
In basic terms, your "dirty" mains is rectified to DC, and then fed to an 'amplifier' which is then modulated by a 50Hz sine wave, to produce 240V AC.
So the regen device itself would also need a clean AC source to perform at it's best.
Your amplifier;
Has a step down transformer, which then rectifies the resulting AC creating DC rails (usually split rails so e.g. +50vDC and -50vDC with respect to ground).
Because the transformer in your amplifier is a step down process (for a typical amplifier of ~100w or so it will be a ratio of 3:1) all incoming mains borne noise is automatically reduced by a factor of 3:1 (240vAC in 70vAC out) - and then of course this is rectified and smoothed by (usually) huge capacitors.
TLDR;
Your regen device is going to be just as prone to mains borne noise as your amplifier (and probably more so because it's a 1:1 process).
Crackie said:
Good stuff legzr1.....looking forward to your feedback comments.
Your friend, who uses mains regeneration, does he used on one the established names? PS Audio, Isotek, Accuphase or an alternative? Have you had opportunity to listed to his system with and without regen being used??
This should have been relatively easy; power everything down then swap one power cable at a time giving them a quick listen as I go..Your friend, who uses mains regeneration, does he used on one the established names? PS Audio, Isotek, Accuphase or an alternative? Have you had opportunity to listed to his system with and without regen being used??
Unfortunately, three of the power cables are 1M long, the 4th 1.5M and they’re just too short to reach my power outlets!
I have a plan.
As I said earlier, one of my ‘big’ monoblocks is a little poorly so I’ll try this messing about with a Quad QSP stereo amp I bought a while ago as a standby amp (an amazing little amp by the way - a recent remake of the old current dumping Quad 909 amps. It’s tiny compared to my Musical Fidelity amps, runs a lot cooler and isn’t fazed in the slightest driving the 800Ds. Hugely impressive for an amp worth about the same as one of the cables I’m playing with.......some perspective needed here I think!).
This should allow me to try the cables direct from the wall socket.
If not, I’ll just use one of my £7 B&Q six way strip/extensions - my mate will have kittens reading that
His power regenerators - he did talk me through them but a lot of it went over my head to be honest. I was more interested in getting a listen to his MF ams35 class A monster amp.
What I do remember is he uses three of them (!) - one for amps/subwoofers, another for the AV kit and the last one for sources (network streamer/DAC and a lovely modded Gyrodec). There’s a chance I’ve got that wrong.
I’m sure one is an isotek, one possibly a PSa but not sure about the third. I’ll get more details when Inspeak to him.
ETA:
Haven’t listened to his system without all the mains treatment - to be honest it would probably take half a day to unplug everything and replace with standard cabling.
What I can tell you is he’s used exotic ‘pricey’ kit for the mains, cabling, source and amplification but his speakers are surprising in a couple of ways - firstly, they sound excellent, something I could easily live with but they’re ‘only’ small stand-mounts - Ruark Equinox and cost a fraction of some of his other kit.
Edited by legzr1 on Tuesday 18th February 10:52
TonyRPH said:
On mains regeneration;
In basic terms, your "dirty" mains is rectified to DC, and then fed to an 'amplifier' which is then modulated by a 50Hz sine wave, to produce 240V AC.
So the regen device itself would also need a clean AC source to perform at it's best.
Your amplifier;
Has a step down transformer, which then rectifies the resulting AC creating DC rails (usually split rails so e.g. +50vDC and -50vDC with respect to ground).
Because the transformer in your amplifier is a step down process (for a typical amplifier of ~100w or so it will be a ratio of 3:1) all incoming mains borne noise is automatically reduced by a factor of 3:1 (240vAC in 70vAC out) - and then of course this is rectified and smoothed by (usually) huge capacitors.
TLDR;
Your regen device is going to be just as prone to mains borne noise as your amplifier (and probably more so because it's a 1:1 process).
I recommend the isotonic momentum mains smoother I've just invented.In basic terms, your "dirty" mains is rectified to DC, and then fed to an 'amplifier' which is then modulated by a 50Hz sine wave, to produce 240V AC.
So the regen device itself would also need a clean AC source to perform at it's best.
Your amplifier;
Has a step down transformer, which then rectifies the resulting AC creating DC rails (usually split rails so e.g. +50vDC and -50vDC with respect to ground).
Because the transformer in your amplifier is a step down process (for a typical amplifier of ~100w or so it will be a ratio of 3:1) all incoming mains borne noise is automatically reduced by a factor of 3:1 (240vAC in 70vAC out) - and then of course this is rectified and smoothed by (usually) huge capacitors.
TLDR;
Your regen device is going to be just as prone to mains borne noise as your amplifier (and probably more so because it's a 1:1 process).
Dirty inorganic mains is used to drive an electric motor that in turn spins a 50kg oxygen reduced vegan flywheel made of oxygen reduced vegans, encased in silver obviously. Balanced, bearings, isotonic drinks, etc. This is used to drive a dynamo into which you plug your Akai.
£1999.99
Bargain
TonyRPH said:
On mains regeneration;
In basic terms, your "dirty" mains is rectified to DC, and then fed to an 'amplifier' which is then modulated by a 50Hz sine wave, to produce 240V AC.
So the regen device itself would also need a clean AC source to perform at it's best.
Your amplifier;
Has a step down transformer, which then rectifies the resulting AC creating DC rails (usually split rails so e.g. +50vDC and -50vDC with respect to ground).
Because the transformer in your amplifier is a step down process (for a typical amplifier of ~100w or so it will be a ratio of 3:1) all incoming mains borne noise is automatically reduced by a factor of 3:1 (240vAC in 70vAC out) - and then of course this is rectified and smoothed by (usually) huge capacitors.
TLDR;
Your regen device is going to be just as prone to mains borne noise as your amplifier (and probably more so because it's a 1:1 process).
Hi Tony, |I understand the point you're making but I think you're making an incorrect assumption regarding how the regenerators operate; I don't think it follows the 'basic' process you describe above. My understanding, in the PS for example, is they use a digitally stored high res AC sine wave as their reference output waveform, this 'flawless' digital sine waveform is then fed to a FPGA DAC and is then used as the input to the amplification stages. The technical reviews of have measured THD in the region of 0.5% on the output when incoming THD is at 5, 6, 7%. In basic terms, your "dirty" mains is rectified to DC, and then fed to an 'amplifier' which is then modulated by a 50Hz sine wave, to produce 240V AC.
So the regen device itself would also need a clean AC source to perform at it's best.
Your amplifier;
Has a step down transformer, which then rectifies the resulting AC creating DC rails (usually split rails so e.g. +50vDC and -50vDC with respect to ground).
Because the transformer in your amplifier is a step down process (for a typical amplifier of ~100w or so it will be a ratio of 3:1) all incoming mains borne noise is automatically reduced by a factor of 3:1 (240vAC in 70vAC out) - and then of course this is rectified and smoothed by (usually) huge capacitors.
TLDR;
Your regen device is going to be just as prone to mains borne noise as your amplifier (and probably more so because it's a 1:1 process).
I've been considering one for many years and have read endless forum posts regarding mains quality; the public forums tend to be healthily sceptical regarding mains cabling and there's also a reasonable consensus regarding conditioners ( They tend to work pretty well on source equipment in areas where mains is poor but conditioners do not work so well on high power systems and can often kill dynamics at higher volumes ).
The overwhelming majority of forum comments I've seen for regenerators have been very complementary; I need to borrow one or two to see ( hear ) for myself...……… If the benefits are as significant as the public forum comments suggest then the high cost of purchase could still be worthwhile.
Edited by Crackie on Tuesday 18th February 18:00
Crackie said:
Hi Tony, PS Audio's regenerators operation doesn't follow the 'basic' process you describe above. My understanding is they use a digitally stored 'perfect' AC sine wave which is fed to a DAC prior to being fed to class D power amplification. The technical reviews have measured THD in the region of 0.5% on the output when incoming THD is at 5, 6, 7%.
I need to borrow one to see whether my system benefits......
I don't see any requirement for a DAC when a simple precision oscillator would do. In fact, a DAC is likely to add more distortion...I need to borrow one to see whether my system benefits......
I note that none of the companies have published THD figures for a typical amplifier running on high distortion mains...
Bottom line is, the THD figures simply will not be affected...
TonyRPH said:
I don't see any requirement for a DAC when a simple precision oscillator would do. In fact, a DAC is likely to add more distortion...
I note that none of the companies have published THD figures for a typical amplifier running on high distortion mains...
Bottom line is, the THD figures simply will not be affected...
I think the point is, even if these regenerators decrease distortion, is it actually audible?I note that none of the companies have published THD figures for a typical amplifier running on high distortion mains...
Bottom line is, the THD figures simply will not be affected...
Is DAC A ‘better’ because it measures 0.000005 % THD+N whereas DAC B measures 0.0000005 %?
B has 10 times the distortion but does that matter when the average speaker is approx one million times worse? Add in room effects and it’s probably another thousand times worse again.
I don’t know because I haven’t compared mains treatment, re-gens etc.
What I have done, just a couple of hours ago actually, is replace the standard power chord from the Quad amp with a 1M DH Lab/Accuphase IEC. At used prices they command similar money.
Yep, a 140W class a/b stereo amp = a one metre power lead (the fuse IS gold plated and the plug pins rhodium plated...).
I’ve tried all styles and quality of music from 44/16 flac from Tidal to DSD and 192/24 from the NAS and streamed via Qobuz.
I’ve listed my kit a few times and won’t bother again but it’s fairly accurate sounding, there is better out there but it represents a significant investment for me and is my ‘end game’ - this should stop moans of “your system isn’t resolving enough” etc.
So, decent source and media, decent amplification and decent speakers.
And I really can’t pinpoint any improvements.
I actually can’t even hear a change in sound. Whether good or bad.
A change of preamp is easily noticed. As is a change of power amp. Even moving the speakers a few inches closer to the wall is noticeable. But, a change of power leads? I’m not so sure.
I’ve got a few others to try and a bit of time to give them a fair go.
At the weekend I might even try pulling all the equipment closer to the floor so I can take the cheap mains block out of the equation.
TonyRPH said:
Crackie said:
Hi Tony, PS Audio's regenerators operation doesn't follow the 'basic' process you describe above. My understanding is they use a digitally stored 'perfect' AC sine wave which is fed to a DAC prior to being fed to class D power amplification. The technical reviews have measured THD in the region of 0.5% on the output when incoming THD is at 5, 6, 7%.
I need to borrow one to see whether my system benefits......
I don't see any requirement for a DAC when a simple precision oscillator would do. In fact, a DAC is likely to add more distortion...I need to borrow one to see whether my system benefits......
I note that none of the companies have published THD figures for a typical amplifier running on high distortion mains...
Bottom line is, the THD figures simply will not be affected...
You don't see the need to go further than a simple oscillator; the manufacturers appear to put far more emphasis on generating their sinewave prior to amplifying it. PS Audio use a field programmable gate array DAC to convert their 'flawless' digital sinewave to analogue.
You're sure that the THD figures will not be affected yet well respected technical reviewers, like Keith Howard, have measured 10 fold reductions in THD for the regenerated AC relative to the incoming.
Anecdotal reviews, from the public, are almost universally complementary. I've seen several who rank their regenerator(s) as not quite as important as the speakers or the room but way more important than any contribution from source and amp.
Crackie said:
Fair enough....
You don't see the need to go further than a simple oscillator; the manufacturers appear to put far more emphasis on generating their sinewave prior to amplifying it. PS Audio use a field programmable gate array DAC to convert their 'flawless' digital sinewave to analogue.
Quite why a digitally generated sinewave would be regarded as superior to an analogue generated one escapes me. Whether using PFGAs or not.You don't see the need to go further than a simple oscillator; the manufacturers appear to put far more emphasis on generating their sinewave prior to amplifying it. PS Audio use a field programmable gate array DAC to convert their 'flawless' digital sinewave to analogue.
Crackie said:
You're sure that the THD figures will not be affected yet well respected technical reviewers, like Keith Howard, have measured 10 fold reductions in THD for the regenerated AC relative to the incoming.
That's not relevant - I want to see what affect this low THD regenerated mains has on an amplifier. I suspect no effect at all.Crackie said:
Anecdotal reviews, from the public, are almost universally complementary. I've seen several who rank their regenerator(s) as not quite as important as the speakers or the room but way more important than any contribution from source and amp.
Placebo effect, and of course the expense has to feel justified, leading to expectation bias.I remember a good few years back when audiophiles were running their amps and DACs on batteries because they insisted they sounded so much better.
It's pretty much died a death now, apart from phono stages where independence from the mains could be justified in certain cases - although decent PSU design would render this pointless...
Gary C said:
Why's that then ?
There is a British Standard requirement for all devices, except tooth brushes and shavers, to be fitted with a fused plug. Now I’m fully expecting someone who knows heaps more than I do about this, in wondrous detail, to chip in and correct me, but if anyone thinks hard wiring their amp to the mains is a good idea, I hope they enjoy watching their own house burn down when something in the system goes wrong.
Edited by Tony1963 on Wednesday 19th February 07:16
Tony1963 said:
Gary C said:
Why's that then ?
The is a British Standard requirement for all devices, except tooth brushes and shavers, to be fitted with a fused plug. Now I’m fully expecting someone who knows heaps more than I do about this, in wondrous detail, to chip in and correct me, but if anyone thinks hard wiring their amp to the mains is a good idea, I hope they enjoy watching their own house burn down when something in the system goes wrong.
You can fit a flex wall outlet but it needs to be supplied with a fuse and as I recall your meant to have a separate switch, but I now think you meant in your post just jack it on to the ring main, that would be a bit dodgy I agree
. But the mains is very dirty and no amount of thick cable is going to make much difference to that and I would have thought the response of the PSU is far more significant than the supplying cable.
You should see some of the switching transients we put on the system during normal operation.
All of this still comes down to one thing: try it for yourself.
The only change to my Naim’s mains supply has been a Graham’s Hydra. This uses original Naim cables and maintains the earthing system. I didn’t buy it for an improvement in the music, just to tidy the cables a bit, and at £70 used, it was worth a go.
There was a definite improvement.
My dealer isn’t pushy at all, but I’m willing to bet that Powerlines and a MusicWorks block would give further improvements. Trouble is, it’d create more cable mess and cost about £3.5k in total... maybe when I’ve paid the mortgage off lol.
The only change to my Naim’s mains supply has been a Graham’s Hydra. This uses original Naim cables and maintains the earthing system. I didn’t buy it for an improvement in the music, just to tidy the cables a bit, and at £70 used, it was worth a go.
There was a definite improvement.
My dealer isn’t pushy at all, but I’m willing to bet that Powerlines and a MusicWorks block would give further improvements. Trouble is, it’d create more cable mess and cost about £3.5k in total... maybe when I’ve paid the mortgage off lol.
Edited by Tony1963 on Wednesday 19th February 07:15
Tony1963 said:
There is a British Standard requirement for all devices, except tooth brushes and shavers, to be fitted with a fused plug.
Now I’m fully expecting someone who knows heaps more than I do about this, in wondrous detail, to chip in and correct me, but if anyone thinks hard wiring their amp to the mains is a good idea, I hope they enjoy watching their own house burn down when something in the system goes wrong.
The sole purpose of the fuse in the plug, is to provide protection in the event of cable damage.Now I’m fully expecting someone who knows heaps more than I do about this, in wondrous detail, to chip in and correct me, but if anyone thinks hard wiring their amp to the mains is a good idea, I hope they enjoy watching their own house burn down when something in the system goes wrong.
Edited by Tony1963 on Wednesday 19th February 07:16
It is not intended to protect the equipment it's connected to.
Technically, there should be no issue hard wiring your amp etc. into the mains (legalities aside).
Tony1963 said:
Maybe. But you’ll have removed one layer of protection. It really isn’t worth it. And it’s weirder than many hifi snake oil products
Protection of what?A 13A fuse allows for 3kW of power to pass - and the rupture point for a 13A fuse will be closer to 16+ amps.
Even a 5A fuse allows for 1.2kW of power, and again, the rupture point will be around 7A+
Therefore you are not removing "a layer of protection" unless you are running a huge PA stack in your lounge, and even then - the equipment will have it's own protection mechanisms built in.
The equipment has it's own protection built in, whether that be thermal fuses in transformers, or ordinary fuses in the power supply lines.
Many other countries do not have fuses in the mains plugs - this is why the equipment has inbuilt protection mechanisms.
Like I said - the sole purpose of the plug fuse is to protect against catastrophic mains cable failure (e.g. a short circuit in the mains cable) - nothing else.
That's why lamps wired with thinner cable have a 5A fuse, and higher consuming devices like kettles with thicker cable have a 13A fuse.
It's that simple.
Which is great if everything is exactly as designed. Often, especially with the years rolling by, or with used gear, things ain’t what they should be. So, for any improvement in the music, it ain’t worth hardwiring anything to the mains that shouldn’t be.
Has anyone on this thread done it?
Has anyone on this thread done it?
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