Speaker cabling/wires
Discussion
Ah, yes - in a PA system you might generate an appreciable field from a big multi-loop of higher power speaker cable. I think the field (which might cause some interference if the stars aligned) is more of a problem than the inductance.
Actually, heat build up is likely the biggest concern. I think.
Actually, heat build up is likely the biggest concern. I think.
stewartm said:
It is a thing, as dependent on signal strength the coil forms an inductor (although I am already talking above my pay grade then, from the POV of electronics expertise). You can partake in 'non-inductive coiling' which comes in two forms:
1) either every coil, or switch after a coil or two, you reverse the direction of the coil (slightly hard to describe) but the upshot is half the coil ends up going clockwise and the other half anticlockwise, which cancels out the inductive effects
2) you just scrunch all the cable up, push it in, close the lid and forget about it, knowing the entirely random mess of cable will have no inductive effect
Generally, people use twin core cable for speakers, the signal and return are a very close approximation to cancelling each other out, because the currents are equal and opposite.1) either every coil, or switch after a coil or two, you reverse the direction of the coil (slightly hard to describe) but the upshot is half the coil ends up going clockwise and the other half anticlockwise, which cancels out the inductive effects
2) you just scrunch all the cable up, push it in, close the lid and forget about it, knowing the entirely random mess of cable will have no inductive effect
There is a small inductance caused by the the two sides of the fig8 pair being separated by a couple of mm. That won't changed ever so much by coiling up the cable.
For very sensitive systems, people use 'twisted pair' which hopes to cancel out voltages induced by other magnetic fields by reversing polarity each twist.
The coiling you describe can help if you've got bizarre problems like a CB radio interfering.
The install industry tends to measure things in american wiring gauages.
For what we use in your application 16/2 (2 cores) and 16/4 (4 cores is absolutely fine. If you want to push the boat, 14/* but it becomes a little hard to connect to kit.
As has been said, watch for fire rates LSOH as well as DCR and CPR ratings are needed if being fitted into the fabric of a house.
For what we use in your application 16/2 (2 cores) and 16/4 (4 cores is absolutely fine. If you want to push the boat, 14/* but it becomes a little hard to connect to kit.
As has been said, watch for fire rates LSOH as well as DCR and CPR ratings are needed if being fitted into the fabric of a house.
Edited by VEX on Wednesday 22 June 21:23
If it works for you, then great.
Traditional 100v and 70v line systems then to have low definition and are mono systems used for very long runs of common signals. Think pa systems in public buildings.
Honest not needed in even the biggest house we build in the UK with network technology and a well designed distributed system.
Traditional 100v and 70v line systems then to have low definition and are mono systems used for very long runs of common signals. Think pa systems in public buildings.
Honest not needed in even the biggest house we build in the UK with network technology and a well designed distributed system.
Newer transformer less 100v line amps are far better, but the sound quality is still affected by the quality of the transformers on the speakers - it does tend to lose bass. I do commercial and higher Ed AV; 100v line is absolutely fine for voice and presentation audio, but I wouldn't use it for anything approaching active listening unless I could add the right subwoofer(s) .
M1AGM said:
darreni said:
I’ve had a delivery of this stuff (thanks for the link). Will be ‘first fixing’ it into the house tomorrow, the next question will be ceiling speakers…..I like B&W but seems much of the good stuff is out of stock.
We are firmly into 2nd fix and floorings, so I couldnt wait any longer to get some celing speakers in and tested.
After speaking to Richer Sounds I went for the pair of Monitor Audio C280 in the smaller part of the kitchen, with a pair of C265 in the large area (its about 50sq m and very high ceiling). Also have another pair of the C265 for when the lounge is ready to be done. Each pair is connected to a Sonos Amp in the loft, and although I have not done the proper sound setup on them yet, on first impressions the sound seems to be rather good.
One question. The speaker cable runs to the loft were left quite short by the sparky (only noticed this now ffs) and he admitted they'd not pulled enough through with hindsight, and offered to buy speaker cable extenders so it is not as tight getting to the amps. I'm a little reticent about using any sort of extender in case it degrades the performance, can anyone advise on this?
Sporky said:
Tony1963 said:
stewartm said:
I would say it would be worth keeping the cable lengths as similar as possible tho.
Really doesn’t make a difference. I’ve compared, never heard anything wrong. Maybe in extremes of say thirty metre runs and one metre runs there could be an issue, but I wouldn’t worry. The phase difference will be immeasurable - signals go about 10,000km a second along copper.
The extra impedance might make a difference, but there are calculators online. If the cable is big enough for the 30m run (at the system impedance and power levels) then it'll be big enough for the 1m run.
I'd just run the sums and buy OFC cable of the right gauge. As has been said, avoid copper clad aluminium - it's rubbish.
Taking the speed of the signal along the cable as a good portion of the speed of light (a quick google suggests 60%-90%). Call it 200,000km/sec, or 200,000,000 meters a second.
Given a 100m difference in speaker cable length - a 1m cable and a 101m cable, the signal will take 0.000000005 of a second to travel down the 1m cable and 0.0000005 of a second down the long cable. The difference being (early morning brain fog permitting) about 0.000000495 of a second.
Given a sample rate of 44,100 samples a second, there’s approx 0.00002 seconds between samples. amongst a sea of zeroes I think we’re looking at a cable 40 times longer - or 4km - before we see a difference of a single sample at the speaker. Ignoring the issues of such a long cable obviously…
I’ve run out of brain power now, but I suspect you might get more phase cancellation by shifting a half a bum cheek along the sofa than from having one speaker cable 10km longer than the other…
Edited by timbob on Monday 12th September 09:42
timbob said:
I’ve run out of brain power now, but I suspect you might get more phase cancellation by shifting a half a bum cheek along the sofa than from having one speaker cable 10km longer than the other…
timbob said:
Out of interest, I wonder what length of speaker cable will make a difference…
Taking the speed of the signal along the cable as a good portion of the speed of light (a quick google suggests 60%-90%). Call it 200,000km/sec, or 200,000,000 meters a second.
Given a 100m difference in speaker cable length - a 1m cable and a 101m cable, the signal will take 0.000000005 of a second to travel down the 1m cable and 0.0000005 of a second down the long cable. The difference being (early morning brain fog permitting) about 0.000000495 of a second.
Given a sample rate of 44,100 samples a second, there’s approx 0.00002 seconds between samples. amongst a sea of zeroes I think we’re looking at a cable 40 times longer - or 4km - before we see a difference of a single sample at the speaker. Ignoring the issues of such a long cable obviously…
I’ve run out of brain power now, but I suspect you might get more phase cancellation by shifting a half a bum cheek along the sofa than from having one speaker cable 10km longer than the other…
Lol. You have to love Pistonheads. Taking the speed of the signal along the cable as a good portion of the speed of light (a quick google suggests 60%-90%). Call it 200,000km/sec, or 200,000,000 meters a second.
Given a 100m difference in speaker cable length - a 1m cable and a 101m cable, the signal will take 0.000000005 of a second to travel down the 1m cable and 0.0000005 of a second down the long cable. The difference being (early morning brain fog permitting) about 0.000000495 of a second.
Given a sample rate of 44,100 samples a second, there’s approx 0.00002 seconds between samples. amongst a sea of zeroes I think we’re looking at a cable 40 times longer - or 4km - before we see a difference of a single sample at the speaker. Ignoring the issues of such a long cable obviously…
I’ve run out of brain power now, but I suspect you might get more phase cancellation by shifting a half a bum cheek along the sofa than from having one speaker cable 10km longer than the other…
Edited by timbob on Monday 12th September 09:42
M1AGM said:
Just as a thread update.
We are firmly into 2nd fix and floorings, so I couldnt wait any longer to get some celing speakers in and tested.
After speaking to Richer Sounds I went for the pair of Monitor Audio C280 in the smaller part of the kitchen, with a pair of C265 in the large area (its about 50sq m and very high ceiling). Also have another pair of the C265 for when the lounge is ready to be done. Each pair is connected to a Sonos Amp in the loft, and although I have not done the proper sound setup on them yet, on first impressions the sound seems to be rather good.
One question. The speaker cable runs to the loft were left quite short by the sparky (only noticed this now ffs) and he admitted they'd not pulled enough through with hindsight, and offered to buy speaker cable extenders so it is not as tight getting to the amps. I'm a little reticent about using any sort of extender in case it degrades the performance, can anyone advise on this?
Hope Richer looked after you price wise. Several dealers here that could have helped. We are firmly into 2nd fix and floorings, so I couldnt wait any longer to get some celing speakers in and tested.
After speaking to Richer Sounds I went for the pair of Monitor Audio C280 in the smaller part of the kitchen, with a pair of C265 in the large area (its about 50sq m and very high ceiling). Also have another pair of the C265 for when the lounge is ready to be done. Each pair is connected to a Sonos Amp in the loft, and although I have not done the proper sound setup on them yet, on first impressions the sound seems to be rather good.
One question. The speaker cable runs to the loft were left quite short by the sparky (only noticed this now ffs) and he admitted they'd not pulled enough through with hindsight, and offered to buy speaker cable extenders so it is not as tight getting to the amps. I'm a little reticent about using any sort of extender in case it degrades the performance, can anyone advise on this?
V.
Mega expensive audiophile branding seems a bit of a con. All you need is thicker gauge wire (as much as you can get away with), good copper content, properly fixed end terminals and good shielding to prevent any interference from power cables etc.
I've just used reels from Maplin in the past for home audio, but a company Knukonceptz do some very well made super insulated stuff for things like RCAs etc. at a decent price. Used it for my car sub recently (would be fine for home audio too), works a treat. I used the klarity kable rcas.
Just to add...rather than cabling, I find having plenty of overhead power output (well beyond the rating of the speaker) from a reputable enough branded amp can make a world of difference to the sound quality. I had a really nice krell 2 channel integrated 300wrms per channel amp driving some super honky old speakers from Argos or something as a test. The amp really brought those speakers to life and made them sound half decent. I've since simplified things a lot audio-wise, just running an old 7 channel Yamaha av amp used to drive some entry level svs speakers, but having the overhead at 170wrms a channel makes all the difference and the sound is actually very good.
I've just used reels from Maplin in the past for home audio, but a company Knukonceptz do some very well made super insulated stuff for things like RCAs etc. at a decent price. Used it for my car sub recently (would be fine for home audio too), works a treat. I used the klarity kable rcas.
Just to add...rather than cabling, I find having plenty of overhead power output (well beyond the rating of the speaker) from a reputable enough branded amp can make a world of difference to the sound quality. I had a really nice krell 2 channel integrated 300wrms per channel amp driving some super honky old speakers from Argos or something as a test. The amp really brought those speakers to life and made them sound half decent. I've since simplified things a lot audio-wise, just running an old 7 channel Yamaha av amp used to drive some entry level svs speakers, but having the overhead at 170wrms a channel makes all the difference and the sound is actually very good.
Edited by Douvre777 on Monday 12th September 22:09
Edited by Douvre777 on Monday 12th September 22:10
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