Prometheus - Ridley Scott's 'Alien Prequel' (or not)...
Discussion
I’ve been avoiding trailers and this thread for the past few months so that I could go into Covenant without having my opinion pre-determined by the PH consensus. Expectations were not high because I’ve not yet recovered from the traumatic disappointment that was Prometheus.
I think Covenant was OK. On the plus side, it was as good looking as you would expect from Ridley Scott, I did feel a sense of tense anticipation through much of the film, and Fassbender as David was very good. The stupidity level wasn’t on the same WTF scale as Prometheus.
And I liked the fact that the terraforming equipment had the JCB logo.
Unfortunately I didn’t care much for the characters. As a result the deaths had about the same impact as the average teen slasher flick.
I think the fundamental flaw with Prometheus and Covenant is that they should not have tried to connect to the Alien franchise. It feels like Ridly Scott wanted to explore the ‘where do we come from’ theme, but the studio and audience want an Alien film. It’s falling between two stools. An interesting story could have been told about the Engineers, a race of beings who used their own DNA to seed life throughout the galaxy, and then millions of years later decide to wipe out the life they created. Add into that the creation of Man deciding that his creator is “not worthy of his creation”.
Now I’ll go back and read the last 3 months of this thread.
I think Covenant was OK. On the plus side, it was as good looking as you would expect from Ridley Scott, I did feel a sense of tense anticipation through much of the film, and Fassbender as David was very good. The stupidity level wasn’t on the same WTF scale as Prometheus.
And I liked the fact that the terraforming equipment had the JCB logo.
Unfortunately I didn’t care much for the characters. As a result the deaths had about the same impact as the average teen slasher flick.
I think the fundamental flaw with Prometheus and Covenant is that they should not have tried to connect to the Alien franchise. It feels like Ridly Scott wanted to explore the ‘where do we come from’ theme, but the studio and audience want an Alien film. It’s falling between two stools. An interesting story could have been told about the Engineers, a race of beings who used their own DNA to seed life throughout the galaxy, and then millions of years later decide to wipe out the life they created. Add into that the creation of Man deciding that his creator is “not worthy of his creation”.
Now I’ll go back and read the last 3 months of this thread.
Edited by SpudLink on Monday 22 May 10:42
SpudLink said:
I think the fundamental flaw with Prometheus and Covenant is that they should not have tried to connect to the Alien franchise. It feels like Ridly Scott wanted to explore the ‘where do we come from’ theme, but the studio and audience want an Alien film. It’s falling between two stools. An interesting story could have been told about the Engineers, a race of beings who used their own DNA to seed life throughout the galaxy, and then millions of years later decide to wipe out the life they created. Add into that the creation of Man deciding that his creator is “not worthy of his creation”.
IMO - they should have done it properly - with a real origin story for the Xenos, or forgone them altogether and concentrated on the engineers background and our origins.As it turns out - we got a mishmash of both, with neither element getting the screen time it needed.
I wonder if we'll get something original in the next movie.......hell even a male lead would make for a nice change, instead of Elen Ripley mk3 (or mk5 if you count the AvP movies)
Edited by Moonhawk on Monday 22 May 11:46
Durzel said:
It's been said better elsewhere but Ridley is brilliant at world building, but everything else is pretty rote. It almost feels as if he sees actors and actors talking as an irritating component he has to crowbar into his worlds.
Having said that it's hard to know how much to blame Ridley for Prometheus and Covenant. He had a hand in creating it, but he didn't write either of the films. I guess one's opinion of him depends on how much you feel that he should protect Alien's (the original film) legacy at the cost of his own financial successes.
I don't think you can put him in the same category as - say - Lucas, who was the sole decision maker with the prequels, etc.
World building isn't just making things look cool. It's establishing coherent framework for the narrative of the movie to take place in. Having said that it's hard to know how much to blame Ridley for Prometheus and Covenant. He had a hand in creating it, but he didn't write either of the films. I guess one's opinion of him depends on how much you feel that he should protect Alien's (the original film) legacy at the cost of his own financial successes.
I don't think you can put him in the same category as - say - Lucas, who was the sole decision maker with the prequels, etc.
I will ask a question; whats the gestation period for a xenomorph?
It seems to change as required by the plot IMO.
That's a crucial element, so not great world building.
robemcdonald said:
I will ask a question; whats the gestation period for a xenomorph?
Well, loath as I am to defend this crock of crap, there is an easy get-out on this...David has managed to engineer the xeno we saw in Covenant within the 10 year he was on that planet. This was his 'first go' with human host, and maybe the experience showed him a weakness - that he needs to address in future xenos. His solution is developed between now and the time of the original Alien movie, why not have this solution requiring the longer gestation period.
This can all be explained in the preamble to the next instalment. He's got a ship full of raw materials to experiment with, and an awful lot of free time.
Yes, it's post hoc. Yes, it was a jarring contradiction in the movie. But this is Hollywood, where common sense and integrity don't earn piles of greenbacks.
Escapegoat said:
robemcdonald said:
I will ask a question; whats the gestation period for a xenomorph?
Well, loath as I am to defend this crock of crap, there is an easy get-out on this...David has managed to engineer the xeno we saw in Covenant within the 10 year he was on that planet. This was his 'first go' with human host, and maybe the experience showed him a weakness - that he needs to address in future xenos. His solution is developed between now and the time of the original Alien movie, why not have this solution requiring the longer gestation period.
This can all be explained in the preamble to the next instalment. He's got a ship full of raw materials to experiment with, and an awful lot of free time.
Yes, it's post hoc. Yes, it was a jarring contradiction in the movie. But this is Hollywood, where common sense and integrity don't earn piles of greenbacks.
I'm perfectly aware this is documentary footage we are watching, but such inconsistences aren't great world building IMO.
It works out itself how long it needs.
So that means it can take hours, days, weeks, months, depending on situation.
If it thinks it needs to be "born" quickly to escape from danger or to protect a Queen then hours. If it needs to "hide" till safe and can then be "born" months later, it does just that.
Its a complex Alien world where the films books and graphic novels all do different things.
So that means it can take hours, days, weeks, months, depending on situation.
If it thinks it needs to be "born" quickly to escape from danger or to protect a Queen then hours. If it needs to "hide" till safe and can then be "born" months later, it does just that.
Its a complex Alien world where the films books and graphic novels all do different things.
Went in pretty much blind to this, in fact I only watched Prometheus the other day but I'm a big fan of Alien/s.
Pretty poor, and very stupid, is how I'd sum it up, and I can usually find good in films. I actually preferred Prometheus, it was far less generic than this. In fact I even preferred Life, which was a complete rip off but executed with a sense of fun, the stupidity of that crew was at least vaguely believable stupidity.
I wanted an Engineer back story, after all that was where Prometheus was leading us, instead we got the equivalent of Steven Spielberg popping up half way through Jaws and explaining in great depth how they made Bruce but it kept malfunctioning.
Also, the twist with David, c'mon. I know they didn't exactly try to hide it, but it was so obvious and contrived it was easy to predict EXACTLY where the film was going long before the end.
Pretty poor, and very stupid, is how I'd sum it up, and I can usually find good in films. I actually preferred Prometheus, it was far less generic than this. In fact I even preferred Life, which was a complete rip off but executed with a sense of fun, the stupidity of that crew was at least vaguely believable stupidity.
I wanted an Engineer back story, after all that was where Prometheus was leading us, instead we got the equivalent of Steven Spielberg popping up half way through Jaws and explaining in great depth how they made Bruce but it kept malfunctioning.
Also, the twist with David, c'mon. I know they didn't exactly try to hide it, but it was so obvious and contrived it was easy to predict EXACTLY where the film was going long before the end.
Edited by ukaskew on Tuesday 23 May 15:50
smudgerebt said:
It works out itself how long it needs.
So that means it can take hours, days, weeks, months, depending on situation.
If it thinks it needs to be "born" quickly to escape from danger or to protect a Queen then hours. If it needs to "hide" till safe and can then be "born" months later, it does just that.
Its a complex Alien world where the films books and graphic novels all do different things.
Not sure if that is supposed to be serious or not. So that means it can take hours, days, weeks, months, depending on situation.
If it thinks it needs to be "born" quickly to escape from danger or to protect a Queen then hours. If it needs to "hide" till safe and can then be "born" months later, it does just that.
Its a complex Alien world where the films books and graphic novels all do different things.
Saw it last night and have to say I'm disappointed too.
The naive stupidity of the Prometheus crew made an unwelcome return,
No hazard suits when exploring an unknown planet for the first time, people wandering off on their own, touching things they have no idea about - the second guy who touches the pod at the crash site, Captain Oram putting his face into the egg when he has just witnessed David trying to befriend a xeno, Daniels must have known that Walter can self heal, yet she proceeds with assisting to stitch him up, it's all just really dumb.
I also don't know whether I genuinely missed a few things or they just didn't make sense, but how did David acquire those face hugger embryo pods?
The naive stupidity of the Prometheus crew made an unwelcome return,
No hazard suits when exploring an unknown planet for the first time, people wandering off on their own, touching things they have no idea about - the second guy who touches the pod at the crash site, Captain Oram putting his face into the egg when he has just witnessed David trying to befriend a xeno, Daniels must have known that Walter can self heal, yet she proceeds with assisting to stitch him up, it's all just really dumb.
I also don't know whether I genuinely missed a few things or they just didn't make sense, but how did David acquire those face hugger embryo pods?
I have to agree with much of what Matt said.
I think David 'created' the embryos from Shaw's reproductive organs (a Youtube vid I watched explained it).
The ending was just so predictable and left me wondering how David gained access to the ship's controls without any security clearance.
Also, when Mother informed the crew of the alien life form on board they were straight on it, yet the alien, having just burst from the Sarg appeared fully grown, how?
I expected better.
I think David 'created' the embryos from Shaw's reproductive organs (a Youtube vid I watched explained it).
The ending was just so predictable and left me wondering how David gained access to the ship's controls without any security clearance.
Also, when Mother informed the crew of the alien life form on board they were straight on it, yet the alien, having just burst from the Sarg appeared fully grown, how?
I expected better.
I got the full IMAX experience last night, almost empty cinema, good times.
Did I like it? I have to say I did, BUT I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't seen the original Alien 100 times.
I don't like the engineers, I don't like the fact that Ridley has manufactured a back story to the space Jockey that doesn't fit at all with the mysterious and incomprehensible derelict spaceship from the original movie. A thousand year old fossilized 20ft creature that clearly wasn't in any way humanoid, always seemed to me the pilot and the ship in Alien was one single bio-mechanical organism , with a bony exoskeleton that had been ruptured outwards.
I can't forgive Oram for not emptying his gun into David the moment he realised that he was behind it all
Will I be buying it? Hell yes, its a great action space horror romp. Do the crew members make some dumb decisions, of course they do, hell you can't have a sci-fi horror movie without screaming NO YOU IDIOT DON'T DO THAT at a character when they make a dumb decision or they panic of they die as a result of their naivety , its a premise that all films are built on. Christ if every movie character followed every logical H&S protocol and didn't do anything that might endanger themselves or satisfy their curiosity we'd end up with very dull movies indeed.
I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Did I like it? I have to say I did, BUT I would have enjoyed it more if I hadn't seen the original Alien 100 times.
I don't like the engineers, I don't like the fact that Ridley has manufactured a back story to the space Jockey that doesn't fit at all with the mysterious and incomprehensible derelict spaceship from the original movie. A thousand year old fossilized 20ft creature that clearly wasn't in any way humanoid, always seemed to me the pilot and the ship in Alien was one single bio-mechanical organism , with a bony exoskeleton that had been ruptured outwards.
I can't forgive Oram for not emptying his gun into David the moment he realised that he was behind it all
Will I be buying it? Hell yes, its a great action space horror romp. Do the crew members make some dumb decisions, of course they do, hell you can't have a sci-fi horror movie without screaming NO YOU IDIOT DON'T DO THAT at a character when they make a dumb decision or they panic of they die as a result of their naivety , its a premise that all films are built on. Christ if every movie character followed every logical H&S protocol and didn't do anything that might endanger themselves or satisfy their curiosity we'd end up with very dull movies indeed.
I'm giving it the benefit of the doubt.
Kaelic said:
Had to laugh at David being able to access all the ships systems without even asking what the wifi password was
Now if the android had of asked one of the crew what the password was, then all bets are off and they would have known he was a baddie!
Personally I had no problem with that, Weyland-Yutani probably hasn't had to deal with a robot that has free will, a creative streak and 10 years alone to descend into madness. I can easily see them just default allowing all androids access to ship systems. (Feels suitably shortsighted too, which is about right for them)Now if the android had of asked one of the crew what the password was, then all bets are off and they would have known he was a baddie!
Venturist said:
Kaelic said:
Had to laugh at David being able to access all the ships systems without even asking what the wifi password was
Now if the android had of asked one of the crew what the password was, then all bets are off and they would have known he was a baddie!
Personally I had no problem with that, Weyland-Yutani probably hasn't had to deal with a robot that has free will, a creative streak and 10 years alone to descend into madness. I can easily see them just default allowing all androids access to ship systems. (Feels suitably shortsighted too, which is about right for them)Now if the android had of asked one of the crew what the password was, then all bets are off and they would have known he was a baddie!
It's also possible that David "hacked" Walter somehow to get the information.
Over all, there are plenty of bigger plot holes than how David could fool the ship that he was Walter.
youngsyr said:
It's also possible that David "hacked" Walter somehow to get the information.
Over all, there are plenty of bigger plot holes than how David could fool the ship that he was Walter.
This. David is engineered to be a smart enough machine that he could pilot an alien spaceship, engineer DNA, etc.Over all, there are plenty of bigger plot holes than how David could fool the ship that he was Walter.
Plugging into Walter's USB socket and Ctrl+Fing (oo-er) to find the important info was never going to be that difficult for him.
robemcdonald said:
World building isn't just making things look cool. It's establishing coherent framework for the narrative of the movie to take place in.
I will ask a question; whats the gestation period for a xenomorph?
It seems to change as required by the plot IMO.
That's a crucial element, so not great world building.
Maybe "world building" was too generous a word. I basically meant that he likes making things look cool. I will ask a question; whats the gestation period for a xenomorph?
It seems to change as required by the plot IMO.
That's a crucial element, so not great world building.
Everything else is secondary.I guess the whole gestation thing depends on how much you care about continuity with Alien, etc.. the films subsequent to Aliens, including the AVP franchise - if you recognise them at all - played pretty loose and fast with gestation periods. For what it's worth I agree, I found it distracting how quickly these protomorphs or whatever you want to call them popped out of peoples bodies. Again, I feel like the reason for this is more to do with the fact that Scott/writers simply aren't interested in a slow burning plot at all... they just want the alien to appear and start causing havoc.
A friend of mine said after we came out that the film suffers for the fact that you know there is going to be an Alien (or several) in it.. I disagreed, in Aliens you knew there were going to be lots of them but it didn't stop that being an superlative film, with memorable characters and arcs. I can't even remember more than half of the characters in Covenant and I only watched the film at the weekend.
Escapegoat said:
This. David is engineered to be a smart enough machine that he could pilot an alien spaceship, engineer DNA, etc.
Plugging into Walter's USB socket and Ctrl+Fing (oo-er) to find the important info was never going to be that difficult for him.
Shirly it's even less complicated than that...David just transferred his consciousness over, ie just took over the same body, Plugging into Walter's USB socket and Ctrl+Fing (oo-er) to find the important info was never going to be that difficult for him.
aquarianone said:
Escapegoat said:
This. David is engineered to be a smart enough machine that he could pilot an alien spaceship, engineer DNA, etc.
Plugging into Walter's USB socket and Ctrl+Fing (oo-er) to find the important info was never going to be that difficult for him.
Shirly it's even less complicated than that...David just transferred his consciousness over, ie just took over the same body, Plugging into Walter's USB socket and Ctrl+Fing (oo-er) to find the important info was never going to be that difficult for him.
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