Star Wars eps. 1-3 - a change of view

Star Wars eps. 1-3 - a change of view

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Discussion

PH5121

1,963 posts

212 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
I grew up with episodes 4 - 6 and was a big fan then, had lots of the figures and vehicles (still in my parents loft somewhere) and am still a fan now.

However I never liked episodes 1 - 3, but after reading this thread I watched episode 2 last night as it has been years since I saw it, and I watched episode 3 a couple of weeks ago as my eldest boy bought me 1-3 for christmas (£2.50 each). I still don't rate them as good as the original(s), but can see how they try to tidy up loose ends in the saga, and how episode 1 appeals to kids (I won't let my kids watch E3 as it is a 12 rating).

My 4 year old loves the Lego Star Wars animation, and I must admit that I prefer it to what I watched last night.
It is worth getting (only from Tesco I believe) if you are a Star Wars fan even if you don't have kids.

Raify

6,552 posts

247 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
I was going to avoid replying to this, because those Plinkett youtube videos say it all. But, this bears repeating for anyone who thinks that the horrific films 1-3 were any good at all.

These points are all in Plinkett's assasination of Phanton Menace:

1. Describe a character in Star Wars 4-6 without describing what they look like, or what they do. Eg: Han Solo - Rogue, ladies man, mercenary but good at heart.

Now try the same thing with any character in Episode 1-3.

2. Who is the protagonist in the Phantom Menace?

3. What about the gaping plot holes?

a) Why does Qi-Gon-Jin think that splitting up and hiding aboard invasion ships will be a good idea? And how did he know that those two ships would land on the same part of the planet?

b) Why does a "Trade Federation" want to blockade trade? Really? Is that what Star Wars has become distilled to? A Tax dispute and a blood disease that means you have telekenesis?

c) Why do Obi-Wan and Qi-Gon only use their super-fast running force power once at the beginning of Episode 1? It would have been really, really useful at 1m.49s of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5rAbcnmO7I

If you're over 10, it's best to just try and forget that episodes 1-3 ever happened.


darth_pies

693 posts

216 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Raify said:
stuff
Defo. I enjoy watching those Red Letter Media reviews more than the prequels!

The prequels failed on every level except for financial success and one good lightsaber fight (Maul vs Obi-wan).

My personal top 10 mistakes by Lucas:
1) Little or no 'human' characters the audience can identify with (no luke, han, leia, lando, wedge)
2) Convoluted and tedious plot around trade routes, tax and senate intrigue
3) OTT special effects and creatures that try too hard to stand out (as begun in the 'special editions')
4) Trying too hard to engage the kids with infantile 'yippee' type dialogue and Jar Jar etc (it wasn't like that in the original trilogy but those were popular with kids!)
5) The most interesting characters and sub-plots (Maul, Jango Fett, how was Anakin conceived, how Palapatine came to be so powerful, why the Jedi's powers are weakening etc.) are always sidelined despite (tellingly) often being features in the marketing of all 3 films because the marketing team clearly understood what people were after better than Lucas!
6) So are we supposed to be cheering for the Republic/Clone army or not, given that they are fighting a war against some systems that just want to leave (devolve?) from the Republic and are about to become the Empire??? The separatists are 'rebels', albeit set-up by Palpatine.
7) Stilted dialogue/poor acting from theoretically decent actors who got little or no direction other than to stand in front of a green screen and look pained.
8) Midichlorians. Why?
9) Disregarding his own established canon of Anakin being a 'great man' before falling to the dark side (rather than a stroppy teeenager) and Leia remembering her mother. Why?
10) Continuously fiddling with all the films to exacerbate all of these problems (e.g. han/greedo, adding Anakin to ROTJ) rather than ever conceding that the fans, critics and actors might have had a point....

/rant

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
darth_pies said:
Defo. I enjoy watching those Red Letter Media reviews more than the prequels!

The prequels failed on every level except for financial success and one good lightsaber fight (Maul vs Obi-wan).

My personal top 10 mistakes by Lucas:
4) Trying too hard to engage the kids with infantile 'yippee' type dialogue and Jar Jar etc (it wasn't like that in the original trilogy but those were popular with kids!)

/rant
I think it's a differnet type of kid watching these days to be honest. Kids are impressed and enjoy different things and I think that in some ways kids are more immature at 6-7 now than when I was a kid. As they grow up they're maturing quicker in some ways than my generation did and much slower in other ways. I was 5 when I saw Star Wars (ANH) and loved it (obviously), but I probably didn't grasp everything at the time. Then I guess a 5-7 year old today won't understand the trade embargo aspects of Ep1 etc.

But like Mark Zuckerberg constantly fking about with Facebook and in the process screwing it up, George should have definitely left Star Wars alone, or at the very least listened to his advisors.

As a massive fan, I'm gutted it's been screwed up so badly, it could have been done so well, with 9 episodes and a decent TV spin off. But it is like flogging a dead horse at the moment.

Sad really, because all the other Star Wars stuff, like the computer games and books etc have been fantastic.

JonRB

74,404 posts

271 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Raify said:
I was going to avoid replying to this, because those Plinkett youtube videos say it all. But, this bears repeating for anyone who thinks that the horrific films 1-3 were any good at all.

These points are all in Plinkett's assasination of Phanton Menace:

1. Describe a character in Star Wars 4-6 without describing what they look like, or what they do. Eg: Han Solo - Rogue, ladies man, mercenary but good at heart.

Now try the same thing with any character in Episode 1-3.

2. Who is the protagonist in the Phantom Menace?

3. What about the gaping plot holes?

a) Why does Qi-Gon-Jin think that splitting up and hiding aboard invasion ships will be a good idea? And how did he know that those two ships would land on the same part of the planet?

b) Why does a "Trade Federation" want to blockade trade? Really? Is that what Star Wars has become distilled to? A Tax dispute and a blood disease that means you have telekenesis?

c) Why do Obi-Wan and Qi-Gon only use their super-fast running force power once at the beginning of Episode 1? It would have been really, really useful at 1m.49s of this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O5rAbcnmO7I

If you're over 10, it's best to just try and forget that episodes 1-3 ever happened.

4. What is wrong with your face????



Odie

4,187 posts

181 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
1,2 & 3 spoiled it..

Could have been so much better, but alas it wasnt.

I read somewhere it was originally supposed to be 9 movies.

The clone wars cartoons/film are worth watching

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
darth_pies said:
5) The most interesting characters and sub-plots (Maul, Jango Fett, how was Anakin conceived, how Palapatine came to be so powerful, why the Jedi's powers are weakening etc.) are always sidelined despite (tellingly) often being features in the marketing of all 3 films because the marketing team clearly understood what people were after better than Lucas!
6) So are we supposed to be cheering for the Republic/Clone army or not, given that they are fighting a war against some systems that just want to leave (devolve?) from the Republic and are about to become the Empire??? The separatists are 'rebels', albeit set-up by Palpatine.
7) Stilted dialogue/poor acting from theoretically decent actors who got little or no direction other than to stand in front of a green screen and look pained.
9) Disregarding his own established canon of Anakin being a 'great man' before falling to the dark side (rather than a stroppy teeenager) and Leia remembering her mother. Why?
10) Continuously fiddling with all the films to exacerbate all of these problems (e.g. han/greedo, adding Anakin to ROTJ) rather than ever conceding that the fans, critics and actors might have had a point....
Quite! I was more interested in how the frack did a senator from a minor planet become perhaps the most powerful Jedi around (save for Yoda) all under the noses of everyone. The rebels story was to convoluted. And even great actors like Lee couldn't breath anything in to the dialogue. I got the feeling every shot was the first one. The red letter stuff does that aspect very well. Anakin is never this great man he is some as you say stroppy kid and he is a kid killer, he doesn't fight anyone decent save for Obi-Wan who he loses to. All the Jedi are killed by Stormtroopers ffs, I thought Vader was the major badass who hunted down the Jedi, because he was a major badass. The Leia remembering her mum is more interesting stuff that Lucas rips up. He wonders why people were disappointed?!biggrin

KB_S1

5,967 posts

228 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
The 3 prequels don't work as films, which is a shame as there were some great set pieces.
Ep 1, the pod racing and the Darth Maul fight scene.
Ep 2, the chase after the assassin and the big battle at the end. I enjoyed the Yoda fight too.
Ep 3, was closer. At least there was some mood to it all and the execution of the youngsters at the Jedi temple was interesting.

Guvernator

13,109 posts

164 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
I'll just add my two penny's worth on why I think the the prequels didn't work.

1. Anakin
He is supposed to be THE main character in the prequels and indeed throughout the whole saga so you decide to base him on a small boy and then a teenager with angst issues. Really, this is the best you can come up? Why the hell would yoy hinge the success of the whole prequels on an unknown boy actor and a relatively unknown quantity like Hayden Christiansen when making one of the biggest trilogies in history? Who was the casting agent? Quite frankly they should be shot.

2. Acting
You have some pretty decent actors in their with some serious credentials, Ewan McGregor, Samuel L Jackson and Christopher Lee to name but a few. Even Haden isn't too bad in some of his other films so why is it without fail that this is the worst performances from any of them. Way to show your directing prowess George, you should have hired someone better to do it.

3. Midichlorians
Change the force from something mysterious and mystical into parasitic mites which give you special powers. The force was magical, it really really didn't need any better explanation then that, why go and screw it all up with some hokey explanation.

4. Childish
Just because it's meant to be a kids film, there is no need to make it childish. The original saga managed to strike the balance perfectly between family friendly and something for the adults to watch. Why insult both new fans and old fans alike with unneccesary childish pranks, fart jokes and yippees.

5. Space Battles
Star Wars has two major things going for it, light sabers and memorable space battles. OK you got the light saber fights right (maybe a bit overdone) but what about the space battles George? I can't remember one memorable space battle from any of the 3 prequels. Where is the drama, the desperation, the human emotion. Who can forget the incredible trench run from ANH, the Millenium Falcon desperately fleeing from Darth in ESB or the awesome final battle at the end of ROTJ. Just flinging more and more plasticky and too shiny looking spaceships around the screen is not the answer. None of the battles had any clear goals, I couldn't tell what was going on or even who the good and bad guys where. Oh and the less said about boy Anakin, his "accidently" blowing up a trade federation trip and his absolutely atrocias line delivery throughout that scene the better.

It's all the more frustrating because throught the whole 3 prequels there is probably about a solid hour of geniune Star Wars Magic unfortunatle surrounded by about 8 hours of crap, just makes me madder at what could have been.

Phew, rant over.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
2. Acting
You have some pretty decent actors in their with some serious credentials, Ewan McGregor, Samuel L Jackson and Christopher Lee to name but a few. Even Haden isn't too bad in some of his other films so why is it without fail that this is the worst performances from any of them. Way to show your directing prowess George, you should have hired someone better to do it.
.
Star Wars showed me that SLJ has a very small range. If he is not playing wise cracking cool black dude or druggie, he simply can't do it.
I was surprised at Lee, less so MacGregor I don't rate him that much, he is lazy.
The only person whose performances I enjoyed are Ian McDiarmids.

JonRB

74,404 posts

271 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Plinkett points out that George Lucas loved to direct from the comfort of a chair with a cup of coffee. He doesn't like to walk around much. So you get a lot of stationary dialogue shot with two cameras so you can flick back and forth between the two people talking. It's very lazy and uninspired.

Also, because so much of it was shot against a greenscreen in a studio it is very hard for the actors to get into what is happening and to react properly. Or even look in the right direction as there is nothing to look at.

"Ok, right, we're going to CGI in a big monster here so look surprised.... now!" is never going to make an actor recoil away in horror like, say, an alien bursting out of someone's chest when the director hasn't told any of the actors but John Hurt that it's going to happen. Would Signory Weaver and the others have all recoiled in believable horror if Ridley Scott had said "and an alien bursts out of his chest.... now!" - I doubt it.

So I think the actors were very much restricted, hobbled and hamstung by George "sometimes forgets to say 'Action'" "pass me a latte" Lucas.


Guvernator

13,109 posts

164 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Halb said:
Star Wars showed me that SLJ has a very small range. If he is not playing wise cracking cool black dude or druggie, he simply can't do it.
I was surprised at Lee, less so MacGregor I don't rate him that much, he is lazy.
The only person whose performances I enjoyed are Ian McDiarmids.
I know SLJ can be a bit one dimensional but he has put in some good turns (see Unbreakable and the Negotiator for some different amd effective performances from him). Your right though, the role of quite and calm Jedi Master didn't suit him at all as he is best when he is shouting and screaming. His death scene for someone who was meant to be No2 Jedi Badass was pathetic though, screaming like a b*tch was not the way to go. Lee I was shocked at, McGregor is OK, not brillaint and but good enough.

My point was that whatever you may think of the actors, this was by far the worst performance from each of them plus their was absolutely no dynamic between any of the characters. Were was the snappy dialouge and interaction which we saw between Han, Luke and Leia? Everyone in the prequels looked bored, as if they were going through the motions. Let's get these boring talkie bits over so we can get to the next over CGI'd scene.

chris watton

22,477 posts

259 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Guvernator said:
Halb said:
Star Wars showed me that SLJ has a very small range. If he is not playing wise cracking cool black dude or druggie, he simply can't do it.
I was surprised at Lee, less so MacGregor I don't rate him that much, he is lazy.
The only person whose performances I enjoyed are Ian McDiarmids.
I know SLJ can be a bit one dimensional but he has put in some good turns (see Unbreakable and the Negotiator for some different amd effective performances from him). Your right though, the role of quite and calm Jedi Master didn't suit him at all as he is best when he is shouting and screaming. His death scene for someone who was meant to be No2 Jedi Badass was pathetic though, screaming like a b*tch was not the way to go. Lee I was shocked at, McGregor is OK, not brillaint and but good enough.

My point was that whatever you may think of the actors, this was by far the worst performance from each of them plus their was absolutely no dynamic between any of the characters. Were was the snappy dialouge and interaction which we saw between Han, Luke and Leia? Everyone in the prequels looked bored, as if they were going through the motions. Let's get these boring talkie bits over so we can get to the next over CGI'd scene.
I don't think it was SLJ's fault, or any of the other actors. The director was crap - anyone who's watched a Michael Winner film will see what I mean - he makes the best thesps in the world seem like rookies.

JonRB

74,404 posts

271 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
Tell you one (of many things) that annoys me in the prequels.

In Ep4 you get the impression that Obi-Wan happened to find a blast helmet lying around on the Falcon and either had a target drone or else found one on board, and improvised a training exercise for Luke.

In Ep2 you find that it is a well-established regimented training exercise they give to "Younglings" (eugh!), which cheapens it all.

Plus why would you give young children real actual working lightsabers and have them stand so close to each other with their eyes covered? eek


KB_S1

5,967 posts

228 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
JonRB said:
Plus why would you give young children real actual working lightsabers and have them stand so close to each other with their eyes covered? eek
Easy way to sort out the no hopers.

JonRB

74,404 posts

271 months

Thursday 19th January 2012
quotequote all
KB_S1 said:
Easy way to sort out the no hopers.
hehe

Gnits

915 posts

200 months

Friday 20th January 2012
quotequote all
I live in the hope that in a few years it will be remade anyway and hopefully done properly!
There are some fan movies out there which are very impressive, these guys for example:
RyanvsDorkman
So I would like to think a group will get together and do Episodes 1-3 properly.

JonRB

74,404 posts

271 months

Friday 20th January 2012
quotequote all
Gnits said:
I live in the hope that in a few years it will be remade anyway and hopefully done properly!
There are some fan movies out there which are very impressive, these guys for example:
RyanvsDorkman
So I would like to think a group will get together and do Episodes 1-3 properly.
Ryan vs Dorkman have always been impressive for their lightsaber battles but that's all they are. I don't mean that in a bad way - what they achieved is amazing for fans, especially the SFX. In fact I think one of them got offered a job at ILM for it.

But I think I agree with Plinkett that we do not need lightsabers in every single frame. More is less. And heavily choreographed is not the best way to go necessarily.


FourWheelDrift

88,382 posts

283 months

Friday 20th January 2012
quotequote all
Has no one yet mentioned the appalling clown make up on the Queens of Naboo?

Who would take them seriously as political figures. It's no wonder the Chinese (Trade Federation) wanted to invade, they wanted to free the people from the tyranny of the make-up department.

Halb

53,012 posts

182 months

Friday 20th January 2012
quotequote all
Lightsabre fights without story are boring no matter how fancy they are. Overuse of them got very repetitive, especially when they were used like swords and the aim of the fight seemed to be to hit the other persons sabre. One of the problems with ill thought out duels.
I always thought that Obi Wans technique of switching his sabre off and on was very clever, and came from thinking of the lightsabre as it's own weapon and not a sword.
I still do not get why some of the Jedi hold them in the classic sword ready position on their right, they have no weight, and so they don't need to be swung. Complete lack of thought of what they are holding I supposebiggrin

Edited by Halb on Friday 20th January 18:04