Harry's Garage - YouTube
Discussion
RichB said:
DonkeyApple said:
...excessive performance is actually a bit of an issue...
I am not a BEV expert but would capping the performance increase battery range? No one needs 0-62 sub 4 seconds in an everyday car. In the video, Harry could have made exactly the same long journey with a motor capable of producing only half the power output, but it would have still yielded the same range from the same battery pack if driven at the same speeds and rates of acceleration. This is why packing EVs with enormous potential is possible, since it has no detrimental effect on range when they are driven at normal road speeds, other than the motor itself being a bit bigger and heavier to package.
The only efficiency benefits to limiting performance are the same as for any car, regardless of motive force: the virtuous circle of less power requiring less traction and braking ability to contain it, and therefore lower weight and less rolling resistance.
thegreenhell said:
RichB said:
DonkeyApple said:
...excessive performance is actually a bit of an issue...
I am not a BEV expert but would capping the performance increase battery range? No one needs 0-62 sub 4 seconds in an everyday car. In the video, Harry could have made exactly the same long journey with a motor capable of producing only half the power output, but it would have still yielded the same range from the same battery pack if driven at the same speeds and rates of acceleration. This is why packing EVs with enormous potential is possible, since it has no detrimental effect on range when they are driven at normal road speeds, other than the motor itself being a bit bigger and heavier to package.
The only efficiency benefits to limiting performance are the same as for any car, regardless of motive force: the virtuous circle of less power requiring less traction and braking ability to contain it, and therefore lower weight and less rolling resistance.
I saw this video, and one Petrol Ped also did recently about using an EV for a long journey. Sorry, I must be missing something, but whilst petrol is still available to the masses there is no way I'd trade in a petrol car for an oversized Scaletrix thing that needs an hour to charge each way everytime I go on a long trip - let's call it out for what it is 'sh@te'.
Shame the hydrogen cell car Honda tried to develop didn't take off, and one of Harry's thoughtful videos on the EV rightly raises concerns about the environmental credibility of EVs in terms of where the electricity they use in the UK is generated from, the manufacturing process and disposal of old batteries. At this stage it feels like a big con driven by naive Govt legislation and a massive advertising programme to change popular opinion on these.
Maybe in 5-10 years when we have cars that can do 500 miles on one charge and take ten mins to charge we will all move over to them, me? I'm sticking to my internal combustion engine thanks....
Shame the hydrogen cell car Honda tried to develop didn't take off, and one of Harry's thoughtful videos on the EV rightly raises concerns about the environmental credibility of EVs in terms of where the electricity they use in the UK is generated from, the manufacturing process and disposal of old batteries. At this stage it feels like a big con driven by naive Govt legislation and a massive advertising programme to change popular opinion on these.
Maybe in 5-10 years when we have cars that can do 500 miles on one charge and take ten mins to charge we will all move over to them, me? I'm sticking to my internal combustion engine thanks....
Edited by Blue One on Tuesday 15th June 18:46
Ref Honda……. i thought that was all tried and tested. I’ve always smelt a rat with this one, (and i am not usually into conspiracy theories), suspect that ‘little’ Honda were leant on to quietly drop the hydrogen program even though it was a better bet than EV, simply because there were too many powerful vested interests who had got behind EV and couldn’t let it fail (despite its flaws).
I’m quite interested in the new EV Renault 5, but like a lot of other private individuals, there isn’t an all wheel drive, Audi A6 estate sized EV that i could get close to affording to buy.
I’m quite interested in the new EV Renault 5, but like a lot of other private individuals, there isn’t an all wheel drive, Audi A6 estate sized EV that i could get close to affording to buy.
Genuine Barn Find said:
Ref Honda……. i thought that was all tried and tested. I’ve always smelt a rat with this one, (and i am not usually into conspiracy theories), suspect that ‘little’ Honda were leant on to quietly drop the hydrogen program...
No one is leaning on Porsche & Siemens to stop their synthetic liquid fuel initiative. 
RichB said:
Genuine Barn Find said:
Ref Honda……. i thought that was all tried and tested. I’ve always smelt a rat with this one, (and i am not usually into conspiracy theories), suspect that ‘little’ Honda were leant on to quietly drop the hydrogen program...
No one is leaning on Porsche & Siemens to stop their synthetic liquid fuel initiative. There is nothing about HIF that has anything to actually do with hydrogen going to retail pumps for retail consumption. Any global hydrogen production going forward is earmarked for reducing CO2 in energy generation in developing nations where there are the greatest tax and credit advantages for the least infrastructure costs. With the Siemens HIF project the hydrogen will ship into the Med to an Italian energy company and converted to electricity pretty much at the dock.
The closest that domestic consumers will get to hydrogen is via their gas supply where up to 10% can be mixed with natural gas before the corrosive qualities of hydrogen cause issues but that is a much later stage of the primary objective of the HIF projects are successful.
An additional phase is a secondary investment in Chile to see if hydrogen can be reacted with atmospheric CO2 to create methane for shipping but when you consider the chemistry and the ultra low levels of CO2 in the air this has a potent whiff of investment spin.
Porsche are spinning it to give the illusion that somehow this hydrogen could in decades time be converted to long chain synthetic hydrocarbons for vehicles but you can see through that by simply considering that a hydrocarbon burnt in air will react with the nitrogen component to create NOx so will never be permitted.
At the same time, retail investment firms are spinning this up to appeal to pensioners as HIF projects will be EIS permissible but your average semi affluent Western pensioner would buy in on a story about green electricity but will buy in on a scheme that sounds like it is anti EV.
Synthetic fuels are the big buzz currently because the funding deals are an easy sell to the retail market with pension assets but hydrogen isn't going to be finding its way to petrol stations as it requires its own bespoke infrastructure plus no private car user could outbid the utility companies who need it to reduce their tax penalties and claim credits. The corporate tax credit angle alone ensures no retail access to hydrogen. And the whole stuff about somehow manufacturing complex long chain hydrocarbons from hydrogen and air can be seen for the PR spin just on the back of an A level in chemistry.
The Western automotive fleet is going electric over the next 50 years and all hydrogen will be being used to generate electricity.
As always when these cars are reviewed the issue comes down to infrastructure and range anxiety.
Harry said he had a great experience and was relatively pain-free (certainly compared to what Tim experienced in his Taycan)... but he still had to make a specific trip to a specific location, out of his way to a huge sigh of relief when he arrived and one was available. Even then it was older tech and didn't really give him much juice.
Per Tim's video... none were available and those that were didn't work properly or were broken.
Unless the charging points form 50%+ of all car parking spots in places like service stations.. it's never going to work. Turn up at Beconsfield in your electric car and it only has 6 stations, 3 of them don't work and even when you do get one.. it takes 30+ minutes per charge.... no thanks.
Yes, yes... charge at home blah blah...
Harry said he had a great experience and was relatively pain-free (certainly compared to what Tim experienced in his Taycan)... but he still had to make a specific trip to a specific location, out of his way to a huge sigh of relief when he arrived and one was available. Even then it was older tech and didn't really give him much juice.
Per Tim's video... none were available and those that were didn't work properly or were broken.
Unless the charging points form 50%+ of all car parking spots in places like service stations.. it's never going to work. Turn up at Beconsfield in your electric car and it only has 6 stations, 3 of them don't work and even when you do get one.. it takes 30+ minutes per charge.... no thanks.
Yes, yes... charge at home blah blah...
DonkeyApple said:
RichB said:
Genuine Barn Find said:
Ref Honda……. i thought that was all tried and tested. I’ve always smelt a rat with this one, (and i am not usually into conspiracy theories), suspect that ‘little’ Honda were leant on to quietly drop the hydrogen program...
No one is leaning on Porsche & Siemens to stop their synthetic liquid fuel initiative. p.s. I didn't do chemistry, not even at o-level. I did computer science.
RichB said:
And yet Harry Metcaff seems quite taken by it.
p.s. I didn't do chemistry, not even at o-level. I did computer science.
The issue is that it is easy to burn hydrogen in an ICE but because it is a corrosive agent you require an entirely new infrastructure in order to distribute it at a retail level. You also have the addition that it is expensive but industry can earn tax credits by using it, plus not have the infrastructure costs. p.s. I didn't do chemistry, not even at o-level. I did computer science.
What this means is that in environments such as Europe there is no commercial basis for hydrogen to be burnt in cars. Conversely, in locations where hydrogen is a byproduct of heavy industry the economics change. Hence why you have Bamford steering JCB to have a hydrogen burning plant offering or it would lose market share to the competition who can supply plant to heavy industry that has hydrogen and can utilise it to gain tax credits against their otherwise extremely heavily polluting activity. A good example here is Ineos who operate in highly destructive heavy industry but produce large amounts of hydrogen waste that they can convert into credits. Equally, nations like Japan produce a lot of hydrogen via their nuclear generation but is also a small land mass where infrastructure costs are minimised.
The story of Hydrogen in the UK is one of punters are being pitched a PR stunt to sell inflated financial products and it being willingly latched onto by those who don't wish EVs to become the de facto transport pod.
There will be hydrogen fuelled engines in specific markets but not markets such as Europe.
That's not my understanding. Reading everything released by Porsche & Siemens it seems that they are aiming to produce a liquid fuel (or a process to create it) that can be used in ICE cars without modification. One may dismiss the statement by Frank Walliser as marketing fluff but why be so sceptical?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 16th June 08:35
RichB said:
That's not my understanding. Reading everything released by Porsche & Siemens it seems that they are aiming to produce a liquid fuel (or a process to create it) that can be used in ICE cars without modification. One may dismiss the statement by Frank Walliser as marketing fluff but why be so sceptical?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
Such heathen talk is blasphemy in the Church of Electric. There can be ohmly one. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 16th June 08:35
My concern with synthetic fuels is how expensive they will be. We are currently looking at something around £10/litre, they claim they could get the cost down to £1/litre which is still 3 times the cost price of petrol but there will be less need for excessive government tax which could make the retail price competitive.
RichB said:
That's not my understanding. Reading everything released by Porsche & Siemens it seems that they are aiming to produce a liquid fuel (or a process to create it) that can be used in ICE cars without modification. One may dismiss the statement by Frank Walliser as marketing fluff but why be so sceptical?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
It's PR. You won't be able to burn synthetic fuel in the EU due to the NOx creation alone. https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 16th June 08:35
Porsche is also not a key partner at just €20m. The key partner is the Italian utility company who will be converting the hydrogen back to electricity as close to the port as possible.
You're also not going to get a whole new retail delivery infrastructure for hydrogen in Europe.
Besides which, the tech doesn't even exist to create these synthetic fuels they are spinning in any commercial capacity.
The HIF projects are about shipping cheap electricity from developing nations to developed ones who are under very heavy legislation and taxation to migrate to zero carbon energy generation.
The reason VW pumped the grant/tax rebate money via Porsche is that this is their biggest headline polluting brand but also the more generic brands would risk stalling EV sales with the spin that somehow eFuels were on the horizon.
The simple reality is that Europe is halting the burning of fuels, whether its hydrocarbons in cars or in homes and any hydrogen or wider hydrocarbon imports are for industrial energy production.
Cold said:
Such heathen talk is blasphemy in the Church of Electric. There can be ohmly one.
It's nothing to do with Church of Electric. It's to do with chemistry, legislation and money. Real world, common sense stuff. Best to leave the writing off of factual information to the 5G and flat Earth punters. 
RichB said:
That's not my understanding. Reading everything released by Porsche & Siemens it seems that they are aiming to produce a liquid fuel (or a process to create it) that can be used in ICE cars without modification. One may dismiss the statement by Frank Walliser as marketing fluff but why be so sceptical?
https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
I attended a launch of one of the Audi RS models in 2018 or 2019 and a guy who was pretty high up in Esso/Mobil gave a talk where he stated that they already had a synthetic fuel ready to go, but if it was made too public/brought to market too soon, there would be vastly more demand than they would ever be able to cope with, so they were waiting for the right time to really push ahead with it. He suggested that they would be looking at when 50% of the population had moved over to EV ad their main form of transport and then it would be viable.https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/industry-news-e...
https://www.motorauthority.com/news/1131774_porsch...
Edited by RichB on Wednesday 16th June 08:35
I can only repeat what was said, and there's a lot of detail I can't remember, but that's the short version. I have no idea how true it is, but he was extremely technical and detailed and seemed an odd claim if there was nothing in it. Possibly exaggerated a bit, but I don't know.
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