Making A Murderer ***CONTAINS SPOILERS***
Discussion
LaurasOtherHalf said:
But maybe that's the one infallible point of our justice system, that your jury is infallible.
What's the other option, that judges decide by themselves? I'm sure we'll both agree the jury system is the best of a bad set of options but it does introduce quirks of the system that MaM exposed.
Like it or lump it I guess, trial by jury is not the way to find out who's guilty or innocent 100%. Mistakes will happen.
*shrug* I don't know what the solution is to be honest. I just find it unsettling that it can be legitimate for the state to present a case using one set of facts, and then present another case regarding the same incident using a completely different set of facts, mutually exclusive to the first. What's the other option, that judges decide by themselves? I'm sure we'll both agree the jury system is the best of a bad set of options but it does introduce quirks of the system that MaM exposed.
Like it or lump it I guess, trial by jury is not the way to find out who's guilty or innocent 100%. Mistakes will happen.
I guess the unease is from the fact that this system essentially promotes presenting a credible argument that exists in a bubble to prosecute someone successfully, rather than actually trying to find the truth of the matter which could invalidate other prosecutions.
I accept that it's an imperfect system whichever way you look at though.
A US judge has ordered the immediate prison release of Brendan Dassey, whose case featured in Netflix's Making a Murderer documentary.
The Wisconsin man's murder conviction was overturned this summer, however, prosecutors are appealing.
The 27-year-old, who has learning difficulties, and his uncle Steven Avery were convicted of murdering a young woman, Teresa Halbach, in 2005.
Avery and Dassey, who was 16 at the time, were sentenced to life in prison.
Judge William Duffin ordered that Dassey be freed from prison under supervision until the next steps in the case become clear, reports the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
Under his release conditions, he must submit to the probation and parole office by midday on Tuesday the address where he plans to reside.
Dassey also must not have any contact with Ms Halbach's family, or co-defendant Avery, whose legal team hopes DNA evidence will clear him.
The Wisconsin man's murder conviction was overturned this summer, however, prosecutors are appealing.
The 27-year-old, who has learning difficulties, and his uncle Steven Avery were convicted of murdering a young woman, Teresa Halbach, in 2005.
Avery and Dassey, who was 16 at the time, were sentenced to life in prison.
Judge William Duffin ordered that Dassey be freed from prison under supervision until the next steps in the case become clear, reports the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel.
Under his release conditions, he must submit to the probation and parole office by midday on Tuesday the address where he plans to reside.
Dassey also must not have any contact with Ms Halbach's family, or co-defendant Avery, whose legal team hopes DNA evidence will clear him.
Just got round to watching this. WTF!
My take on it:
Steven Avery is a pretty appalling individual. Although he was stated to have no sex convictions prior to the false conviction I suspect the police had reason to believe a rape would be in character. At worst they reckoned he would commit rape or worse if they didn't take the opportunity to lock him away.
I think he more likely than not killed in this case. The fact that she was last seen alive on his property and also first seen dead there, and the blood in the Rav4 are strongly suggestive. But the police were blatantly overegging the pudding. I don't see how this was proven beyond reasonable doubt.
I reckon Brendan is probably innocent, at worst he may have helped dispose of the body afterwards. The idea of Steven inviting him to join in when he turned up unexpectedly is bizarre. The idea of Brendan being involved in the planning of anything at all it absurd. The whole point of the police interrogating Brendan was that when they got to 'we know she was shot, was it by you or Steven?' Brendan would naturally go for the less incriminating alternative and they would have a witness for Steven killing Teresa. When the police found they had overestimated Brendan's intelligence and he claimed to have killed her himself, this was an unwanted complication.
I missed that Brendan had said the body was moved in the Rav4. Did this come from him or from the interrogating officers and he just confirmed it?
The key was farcical, even the prosecution played it down in the end saying it wasn't important evidence. But if it was planted that casts doubt on the whole case.
The bullet DNA test might have been technically inconclusive, but the contaminated control was not contaminated with Teresa Halbach's DNA but with the technicians. A technicality then, but enough to cast doubt on it. Also of course the bullet was another 'we went back and searched much later and found something important that everyone previously missed' item which is always a bit dubious.
The FBI chemical test was also weird. Only test half the samples? If they had tested one and said 'they are bound to be all the same so that'll do' it would have been odd enough. But saying in effect 'samples 2 and 3 might be different but the rest can't be' is ludicrous. Also of course they couldn't really prove a negative. Nevertheless I think it's strongly indicative.
My take on it:
Steven Avery is a pretty appalling individual. Although he was stated to have no sex convictions prior to the false conviction I suspect the police had reason to believe a rape would be in character. At worst they reckoned he would commit rape or worse if they didn't take the opportunity to lock him away.
I think he more likely than not killed in this case. The fact that she was last seen alive on his property and also first seen dead there, and the blood in the Rav4 are strongly suggestive. But the police were blatantly overegging the pudding. I don't see how this was proven beyond reasonable doubt.
I reckon Brendan is probably innocent, at worst he may have helped dispose of the body afterwards. The idea of Steven inviting him to join in when he turned up unexpectedly is bizarre. The idea of Brendan being involved in the planning of anything at all it absurd. The whole point of the police interrogating Brendan was that when they got to 'we know she was shot, was it by you or Steven?' Brendan would naturally go for the less incriminating alternative and they would have a witness for Steven killing Teresa. When the police found they had overestimated Brendan's intelligence and he claimed to have killed her himself, this was an unwanted complication.
I missed that Brendan had said the body was moved in the Rav4. Did this come from him or from the interrogating officers and he just confirmed it?
The key was farcical, even the prosecution played it down in the end saying it wasn't important evidence. But if it was planted that casts doubt on the whole case.
The bullet DNA test might have been technically inconclusive, but the contaminated control was not contaminated with Teresa Halbach's DNA but with the technicians. A technicality then, but enough to cast doubt on it. Also of course the bullet was another 'we went back and searched much later and found something important that everyone previously missed' item which is always a bit dubious.
The FBI chemical test was also weird. Only test half the samples? If they had tested one and said 'they are bound to be all the same so that'll do' it would have been odd enough. But saying in effect 'samples 2 and 3 might be different but the rest can't be' is ludicrous. Also of course they couldn't really prove a negative. Nevertheless I think it's strongly indicative.
skahigh said:
I can't imagine what they are going to cover for a whole series given that there have been no major developments in the case.
"Documentary filmmaker Shawn Rech, who also worked on A Murder In The Park, will direct the eight-episode series, which will be less about what happens to Steven and Brandon, but more about the controversial case built by State of Wisconsin."I only have 2 episodes left of PT2 and finding it very good!
similar to that programme thats been on BBC about that investigator feeing (supposedly) innocent people in the UK...
Not sure... but the prosecution evidence sure looks very fishy based on the tests done!
also the housemate / ex BF is also a bit dodgy I reckon ... also, Avery said he saw here leave and her route... but he could've cut through the yard along that access road and stopped her on the main road after she had looped around the quarry... just watched that bit
similar to that programme thats been on BBC about that investigator feeing (supposedly) innocent people in the UK...
Not sure... but the prosecution evidence sure looks very fishy based on the tests done!
also the housemate / ex BF is also a bit dodgy I reckon ... also, Avery said he saw here leave and her route... but he could've cut through the yard along that access road and stopped her on the main road after she had looped around the quarry... just watched that bit
Edited by Lynchie999 on Sunday 21st October 09:56
Spanna said:
With regards to Steven I’m completely on the fence.
Brendan, however, is an absolute disgrace of a conviction based entirely on THAT ‘confession.’
+1Brendan, however, is an absolute disgrace of a conviction based entirely on THAT ‘confession.’
The reluctance to release Brendan even pending an appeal is extraordinary. I get the impression that if Teresa Halbach walked into the courtroom and said she'd been living under an assumed name for the last 13 years her evidence would be ruled inadmissible.
Dr Jekyll said:
Spanna said:
With regards to Steven I’m completely on the fence.
Brendan, however, is an absolute disgrace of a conviction based entirely on THAT ‘confession.’
+1Brendan, however, is an absolute disgrace of a conviction based entirely on THAT ‘confession.’
The reluctance to release Brendan even pending an appeal is extraordinary. I get the impression that if Teresa Halbach walked into the courtroom and said she'd been living under an assumed name for the last 13 years her evidence would be ruled inadmissible.
When they got the judgement on his testimony to get it over turned and inadmissable, I knew it would just get wrapped up in appeals and BS to keep him inside. And then they won AGAIN in a higher court, yet he’s still inside.
For the prosecutors and officers to say Brendan wasn’t fact fed and manipulated is ridiculous. Just look at the point where the office asked, “what did he do in the car?” Brendan responds, “he left the gun in the car?” He was trying to answer correctly, like a kid looking for a positive reaction from the adults around him would.
I feel if his mom was present from minute one, nothing would’ve happened with him. Plead the fifth!
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