Old school handling - how to achieve
Discussion
This may be a bit of a rambling post, we shall see.
I had a Westfield XI that I took on a track occasionally. The handling was perfect so far as I was concerned, at lower speeds, the front end went exactly where I pointed it and the rear could be steered on the throttle almost instinctively. If I pushed it a bit further then I could four wheel drift round a bend, again steering with the throttle. The car was not the fastest round a track with only 100bhp from its 1275 A series engine but it was by far and away the most fun to drive. As indeed EVO found out in 2006(?) when they included it in the ETDCOTY and it placed very well, the fact that out of all the cars available it did the most track miles seemed to suggest that ultimate speed is not everything.
I currently own an Ultima and I am not getting as much enjoyment from the car so I have put it up for sale. Once the car sells I intend to replace it with something else, perhaps a Caterham or Westfield, I'm not really interested in chasing big BHP pub bragging figures but I really want to get that old school handling feeling back, so I wondered if the newer Caterham or Westfield could be built to have the same handling as the XI. It may be that the majority of the experience is down to the correct (or incorrect, depending on your viewpoint) selection of tyre. The XI was running narrow Avon CR322 tyres that had not massive levels of grip compared to the modern trackday tyre that will grip like glue right up to the point it doesn't. So if I built a Caterfield with say 130 bhp but then fitted narrower, harder tyres would this do the trick?? Anyone tried it?
The obvious solution would be to build another XI, but I have been there and done that so I wondered if another option was available.
I had a Westfield XI that I took on a track occasionally. The handling was perfect so far as I was concerned, at lower speeds, the front end went exactly where I pointed it and the rear could be steered on the throttle almost instinctively. If I pushed it a bit further then I could four wheel drift round a bend, again steering with the throttle. The car was not the fastest round a track with only 100bhp from its 1275 A series engine but it was by far and away the most fun to drive. As indeed EVO found out in 2006(?) when they included it in the ETDCOTY and it placed very well, the fact that out of all the cars available it did the most track miles seemed to suggest that ultimate speed is not everything.
I currently own an Ultima and I am not getting as much enjoyment from the car so I have put it up for sale. Once the car sells I intend to replace it with something else, perhaps a Caterham or Westfield, I'm not really interested in chasing big BHP pub bragging figures but I really want to get that old school handling feeling back, so I wondered if the newer Caterham or Westfield could be built to have the same handling as the XI. It may be that the majority of the experience is down to the correct (or incorrect, depending on your viewpoint) selection of tyre. The XI was running narrow Avon CR322 tyres that had not massive levels of grip compared to the modern trackday tyre that will grip like glue right up to the point it doesn't. So if I built a Caterfield with say 130 bhp but then fitted narrower, harder tyres would this do the trick?? Anyone tried it?
The obvious solution would be to build another XI, but I have been there and done that so I wondered if another option was available.
MKnight702 said:
So if I built a Caterfield with say 130 bhp but then fitted narrower, harder tyres would this do the trick?? Anyone tried it?
Yes, Lotus tried it. The original (Series 1) Lotus Seven was basically a Lotus Eleven with cheaper bodywork. I've driven one, and it's remarkably similar to the Westfield Eleven (and nothing at all like a modern Caterham).Along with narrower, harder tyres, you'll probably want to soften the suspension on any modern Locaterfield - spring rates have gone stupid in recent years 'because race car' and to keep camber change within sensible limits for the wider tyres. You don't need to control the camber so strictly with narrow tyres, and you'll get more progressive grip with a softer set-up. From memory, the rear spring rates on a Lotus Eleven were about 90lb; contemporary Locaterfields are typically upwards of double that.
Truckosaurus said:
A Caterham with the smallest engine and narrowest tyres does seem to be the easiest answer to the question.
Perhaps it would be worth renting a Caterham for a Trackday and seeing how you get on.
The new Caterham 160 looks interesting but the gearbox is supposed to be rubbishPerhaps it would be worth renting a Caterham for a Trackday and seeing how you get on.
sticks090460 said:
I used to have a Westfield SEi with 150-odd BHP and the 195 front/ 205 rear section tyres. You could set it up to do pretty much what you needed (over/ under-steer or neutral) by mucking around with the standard damper settings. Soft front, stiff rear gives *plenty* of oversteer.
Even those are quite wide. I had 185/60/14 tyres on my Westfield. It was nearer 130 than 150bhp though.What did the XIs have on? 165/80?
You can tweak spring rates to fine tune the handling. When we raced front wheel drive cars for example, we used to set it up neutral for the wet, and stiffen the hell out of the back for the dry. This used to mean no understeer, and a shed load of lift off oversteer, which meant you could toss it into corners and let it drift a little.
My point is, this was all achieved by simply changing spring rates and simple damper adjustments.
My point is, this was all achieved by simply changing spring rates and simple damper adjustments.
200Plus Club said:
out of interest why no love for the Ultima?
(not a fan either)
Presumably massive grip means the car doesn't move around/involve like the OP wants until you're doing silly speeds? (not a fan either)
I reckon a wide-track Caterham (less understeer, pointy front end) with a road-biased tyre (Toyo T1R or similar) and about 130-150bhp would seem about right. As mentioned, soft springs too, then adjust to get the feel you need. Can also play with ARBs too if required.
_Neal_ said:
200Plus Club said:
out of interest why no love for the Ultima?
(not a fan either)
Presumably massive grip means the car doesn't move around/involve like the OP wants until you're doing silly speeds?(not a fan either)
Olivera said:
_Neal_ said:
200Plus Club said:
out of interest why no love for the Ultima?
(not a fan either)
Presumably massive grip means the car doesn't move around/involve like the OP wants until you're doing silly speeds?(not a fan either)
cptsideways said:
The 1.5L Mx-5 MK4 is the answer (Not the 2.0L) its the nearest modern to an old Caterham in the way they handle, the Caterham 160 harks back to this too funnily enough. The MX-5 has a lovely ride & very compliant easy to push around & a very sweet low'ish power engine.
I know that MX5 is the default PH answer, but no. About 50% too heavy for me, power may be low but hauling round all that extra weight is just not going to cut it for me.It begs the question: if you know the Westfield Eleven is the answer, why not just get another?
They look better than the Caterham, they hold their value better (particularly if the Caterham you want is some sort of retro-mutant that everyone else will regard as weird), and they drive better than the Caterham?
If you want to avoid the 'been there, done that' issue, look at a different engine this time around?
They look better than the Caterham, they hold their value better (particularly if the Caterham you want is some sort of retro-mutant that everyone else will regard as weird), and they drive better than the Caterham?
If you want to avoid the 'been there, done that' issue, look at a different engine this time around?
Equus said:
It begs the question: if you know the Westfield Eleven is the answer, why not just get another?
They look better than the Caterham, they hold their value better (particularly if the Caterham you want is some sort of retro-mutant that everyone else will regard as weird), and they drive better than the Caterham?
If you want to avoid the 'been there, done that' issue, look at a different engine this time around?
It's a good point, especially as the XI must be within budget. They look better than the Caterham, they hold their value better (particularly if the Caterham you want is some sort of retro-mutant that everyone else will regard as weird), and they drive better than the Caterham?
If you want to avoid the 'been there, done that' issue, look at a different engine this time around?
PS - I don't think the Caterham would be a retro-mutant, more a normal 7 with road tyres and a customisable setup.
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