The Vietnam war BBC4
Discussion
captainzep said:
Enjoying this. I knew very little about JFK's involvement -and how incompetent that new administration was. Didn't know that it was him that OK'd use of napalm and agent orange too.
Hard to be anything other than impressed by the resilience of the Vietnamese people given the s
t they went though.
By some accounts, the French and Japanese killed ~2m Vietnamese by strategic famine in 1944 to 1945, and then the Americans and French killed another ~4m during the Vietnam War of 1955 to 1975.Hard to be anything other than impressed by the resilience of the Vietnamese people given the s
t they went though.It was basically a Vietnamese holocaust, which rivalled the German holocaust.
But history is written by the winners and you will rarely see it defined in that way by Western literature.
Eric Mc said:
I wasn't aware that America "won" the Vietnam War.
In the case of the Vietnam War, the histories that we are aware of were written by those who, in their own minds, feel that they lost.
One felt very much by the American people as well, certainly for me the tide turned against US polic,y when they started to ask the middle classes to go and fight. The minute they started to draft the bright young things was when the tide turned. It's quite ironic that lessons learned about hearts and minds that failed in Vietnam, were not applied in future conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan. In the case of the Vietnam War, the histories that we are aware of were written by those who, in their own minds, feel that they lost.
It's a brilliant series btw.
Watched the whole series. Outstanding stuff
My only disappointment was that the series was a little light on the issues that led to the war. I would have liked an additional opening episode.
There is a brilliant and readable book on this called Embers of War. Completely changed my understanding of the whole thing.
My only disappointment was that the series was a little light on the issues that led to the war. I would have liked an additional opening episode.
There is a brilliant and readable book on this called Embers of War. Completely changed my understanding of the whole thing.
Eric Mc said:
I wasn't aware that America "won" the Vietnam War.
In the case of the Vietnam War, the histories that we are aware of were written by those who, in their own minds, feel that they lost.
Interestingly I visited a museum in the U.S.A. The military exhibits were labelled "south east Asia conflict" which is correct as a declaration of war was never made, also means they never lost a war.In the case of the Vietnam War, the histories that we are aware of were written by those who, in their own minds, feel that they lost.
deltaevo16 said:
It's a brilliant series btw.
I've just watched the first two episodes, tragic watching it develop.What was interesting for me was to finally understand the context behind the civil unrest of the South and the end of the French rule, rise of Communism, the dictatorship of Diem leading to the resistance against the US backed regime resulting in the monks protests, and the blundering of the Americans. Was interesting how Kennedy seemed poor in office, though it may just be that many global and national issues all came to a head at the same time before he could do anything about it.
I got the feeling that Ho Chi Minh was a sophisticated and wordly politician, and originally was a pragmatic, but passionate moderate who had created a communist party to oppose the Colonial French and free Vietnam.
Had the US done to the French (as a guy admitted in the show as they had to the Brits, at I assume, Suez) and withdrawn their support for and increase it for Ho Chi Minh, then perhaps he would not have been forced into the very willing arms of China.
It was interesting that the show stated that the fight and victory against the French was wrongly interpreted as a Communist takeover, when really it was just the "usual" nation breaking free of colonial control. And at this point the US need not have stepped in and support a wholly unsuitable puppet ruler for the South, then get so sucked in they had no option but to stay and escalate proceedings.
Really looking forward to the rest of this series, but it isn't going to be comfortable viewing.
I find the most interesting feature to be the recorded telephone conversations between Lyndon Johnson and his Chiefs of Staff. Presumably these have been released for public consumption under Freedom of Information legislation.
Johnson has such an air of exhausted resignation. You can just sense his desire to call the whole thing off, but somehow he just has to go with the flow. What a waste of life.
Johnson has such an air of exhausted resignation. You can just sense his desire to call the whole thing off, but somehow he just has to go with the flow. What a waste of life.
nicanary said:
I find the most interesting feature to be the recorded telephone conversations between Lyndon Johnson and his Chiefs of Staff. Presumably these have been released for public consumption under Freedom of Information legislation.
Johnson has such an air of exhausted resignation. You can just sense his desire to call the whole thing off, but somehow he just has to go with the flow. What a waste of life.
Exactly - Very illuminating! Johnson has such an air of exhausted resignation. You can just sense his desire to call the whole thing off, but somehow he just has to go with the flow. What a waste of life.
They knew they couldn't win from the outset, what a bunch of s
ts politicians are...M.
Watched up to episode 3 so far and there are some real WTF? moments in it. The burning monk was particularly shocking.
It doesn't paint JFK in a particularly good light and I wonder how he would be remembered if he hadn't been assassinated. To hear him say that he knew they couldn't win but went ahead anyway so he stood a better chance of being re-elected was an eye opener.
Very interesting documentary series.
It doesn't paint JFK in a particularly good light and I wonder how he would be remembered if he hadn't been assassinated. To hear him say that he knew they couldn't win but went ahead anyway so he stood a better chance of being re-elected was an eye opener.
Very interesting documentary series.
It's an absolutely stunning documentary, I'm three episodes in and the last episode in particular had me totally glued. The archive footage they assembled for this is unbelievable. Being something of a fan of Vietnam war films, thought I knew a fair bit, but clearly not!
As a side note, does anyone know whether the BBC are showing an edited version? Wikipedia lists the show as being 18 hours in total, yet the BBC are showing it in 10 hour long episodes?
As a side note, does anyone know whether the BBC are showing an edited version? Wikipedia lists the show as being 18 hours in total, yet the BBC are showing it in 10 hour long episodes?
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