E60 M5 swap for an E46 M3? Madness??
Discussion
So, I've got a tidy well spec’d 2003 e46 M3. Its got 70k miles, good history and some nice mods to make it into a very capable fast road car/track car. I’d say its worth about £14-15k going by todays marketed prices, and they seem to be rising too. Its also had all the big jobs done bar the RACP bracing, which currently has no visible signs of requiring immediate attention, it was thoroughly inspected with photos when the GPS was replaced a month ago.
I’ve come across a 55plate E60 M5 with 105k on the clock (new engine fitted @40k for some reason), recent clutch, slave and DMF done, and looks quite tidy. No mention of big end shells being replaced though. Current owner thinks it's worth £14k.
From people who have experience of running both, or of selling both, I’d like to find out if doing a straight swap with the M5 owner is a good deal or one I’d regret. I would have thought the M5 was worth less than the M3, even if it is a better car. But I can only assume the values are lower due to the higher running costs.
I know what all the usual faults and cost are on the M3 but know nothing about the M5’s other than they can also suffer with vanos failure but 2off, also bid end failure and actuator failure. Are these all common?
The M5’s seem to be at their rock bottom, or perhaps have already been there and are on their way up like the M3’s. I only do about 5k a year so fuel economy isn’t a major concern for me.
What questions should I be armed with??
Thanks.
I’ve come across a 55plate E60 M5 with 105k on the clock (new engine fitted @40k for some reason), recent clutch, slave and DMF done, and looks quite tidy. No mention of big end shells being replaced though. Current owner thinks it's worth £14k.
From people who have experience of running both, or of selling both, I’d like to find out if doing a straight swap with the M5 owner is a good deal or one I’d regret. I would have thought the M5 was worth less than the M3, even if it is a better car. But I can only assume the values are lower due to the higher running costs.
I know what all the usual faults and cost are on the M3 but know nothing about the M5’s other than they can also suffer with vanos failure but 2off, also bid end failure and actuator failure. Are these all common?
The M5’s seem to be at their rock bottom, or perhaps have already been there and are on their way up like the M3’s. I only do about 5k a year so fuel economy isn’t a major concern for me.
What questions should I be armed with??
Thanks.
I've never owned an E46, currently own an E60. I think the E60's still have some depreciation to go. That E60 will also be due the shells in the not too distant future, if not already. I'd keep the E46. As good as the E60 is (imo), if you're worried about track etc then the E46 would be better option.
Thanks for the replies chaps, interesting to see an actual M5 owner also suggesting to keep the M3! I do think the M3 would be sorely missed if I were to let it go, especially with the low miles and spec.
My only problem for me is I have 3 small kids, and they don't all fit in the M3, so we can't use it for weekend trips etc. Which is a good thing I suppose as it doesn't get ruined by sticky fingers etc!!!
Being a true petrolhead the M5 has always had admiration from me, but the cost of running one has always deterred me.
Are they really no quicker than the M3 to 80mph? I'd have thought they'd leave the M3 standing?
My only problem for me is I have 3 small kids, and they don't all fit in the M3, so we can't use it for weekend trips etc. Which is a good thing I suppose as it doesn't get ruined by sticky fingers etc!!!
Being a true petrolhead the M5 has always had admiration from me, but the cost of running one has always deterred me.
Are they really no quicker than the M3 to 80mph? I'd have thought they'd leave the M3 standing?
What I love about my M5 is that it fits the whole family, so we can take it anywhere and I don't need an excuse to drive it. Of course it's bigger and heavier but then 95% of my driving is either in town with speedbumps everywhere or motorways so it suits me.
It's noticeably quicker than an E46 M3 in a straight line and the engine feels much more special IMO.
It's noticeably quicker than an E46 M3 in a straight line and the engine feels much more special IMO.
TheAngryDog said:
Toady, you're not far from me, im in bucks. If you're in no rush then you are welcome to come and try my M5 once I get back it back from having the rod bearings done.
Thanks for the offer. I'd like to do that. Who is doing the rod bearings for you as if I do go for it then it may be wise to have them done on this car as its done 65k now. The chap proposing to swap is not far from me either, but it'd be great to see another one to compare it to. I'm looking to do the opposite and TBH I think I'm mad. Currently got an E60 M5 but can't ignore the itch for an M3.
Both cars have their problem areas and neither are cheap to run. Buy/swap with your eyes wide open, after the reading the buyers guide in here, just as you would do for any car. Yes the M5 can be expensive to fix but the M3 is hardly a cheap runabout. Long gone is the time where certain jobs were dealer only.
Speed wise the M5 takes a little to wind up but then it's a big heavy car. On the roll an M5 makes the 46 look slow. Around the twisties I found them pretty evenly matched but into triple figures and the M5 is a completely different beast. But therein lies it's biggest problem, it's only silly quick once you are way past licence losing speeds. Great for the once or twice a year you venture over to Germany but no good for any other time. B road blasts on a Sunday morning I imagine the M3 to be more fun. Lighter with more connectivity and feedback. Don't get me wrong, the M5 is still a remarkably capable car but I don't feel as at one with it as the M3 platform.
I have loved owning my M5, and I'm sure I will regret selling it, but an M3 is calling. I think I will miss the power so a supercharger is on the mod list.. Oh and the sound, an E46 sounds like a bee in a can compared to the M5 to me. lol
Both cars have their problem areas and neither are cheap to run. Buy/swap with your eyes wide open, after the reading the buyers guide in here, just as you would do for any car. Yes the M5 can be expensive to fix but the M3 is hardly a cheap runabout. Long gone is the time where certain jobs were dealer only.
Speed wise the M5 takes a little to wind up but then it's a big heavy car. On the roll an M5 makes the 46 look slow. Around the twisties I found them pretty evenly matched but into triple figures and the M5 is a completely different beast. But therein lies it's biggest problem, it's only silly quick once you are way past licence losing speeds. Great for the once or twice a year you venture over to Germany but no good for any other time. B road blasts on a Sunday morning I imagine the M3 to be more fun. Lighter with more connectivity and feedback. Don't get me wrong, the M5 is still a remarkably capable car but I don't feel as at one with it as the M3 platform.
I have loved owning my M5, and I'm sure I will regret selling it, but an M3 is calling. I think I will miss the power so a supercharger is on the mod list.. Oh and the sound, an E46 sounds like a bee in a can compared to the M5 to me. lol
Toady1 said:
TheAngryDog said:
Toady, you're not far from me, im in bucks. If you're in no rush then you are welcome to come and try my M5 once I get back it back from having the rod bearings done.
Thanks for the offer. I'd like to do that. Who is doing the rod bearings for you as if I do go for it then it may be wise to have them done on this car as its done 65k now. The chap proposing to swap is not far from me either, but it'd be great to see another one to compare it to. The car is away from this weekend and then I am away next weekend.
I went from an Alpina B10 V8 to an M5 touring and then back to an E46 M3.
In may ways, the Alpina was everything the M5 should have been but wasn't. The M5 was more modern but the engine (and fuel tank size) were woefully ill suited to the type of car. The engine is a corker when you're ragging the daylights out of it, but at other times (which is most of the time you're driving it) its a total non-event. There's no real shove or character below 4k rpm which is where it spends much of its life as a family car.
Of course, some people just need to scratch that V10 itch.
The Alpina did everything you wanted to of a family car and still managed to pick up its skirts and be fun on the rare occasions that opportunity presented. I daresay the B5 variant would be even better in that regard, which is probably part of the reason they hold money well.
The E46 by contrast is a more fun car all round, at the expense of some practicality (mainly extra doors and boot space albeit I use mine as a second car and its perfect as it has 4 proper seats and the boot fits a decent amount. Its more chuckable, it makes a great noise with the carbon airbox without having to rag it everywhere and the handling is benign enough to hand the tail out and still be able to gather it up. Its a flattering and enjoyable car to drive. Its also fairly bomb proof (there are some well documented foibles but they are fixable) and it also returns surprisingly good economy (which helps the case).
Tor me, V10 aside my M5 simply didn't cut it. Too many things go wrong, the fuel tank needed to be 90L etc.
I've not driven an F10 but if I had my time again, I'd have gone the E63 route instead.
In may ways, the Alpina was everything the M5 should have been but wasn't. The M5 was more modern but the engine (and fuel tank size) were woefully ill suited to the type of car. The engine is a corker when you're ragging the daylights out of it, but at other times (which is most of the time you're driving it) its a total non-event. There's no real shove or character below 4k rpm which is where it spends much of its life as a family car.
Of course, some people just need to scratch that V10 itch.
The Alpina did everything you wanted to of a family car and still managed to pick up its skirts and be fun on the rare occasions that opportunity presented. I daresay the B5 variant would be even better in that regard, which is probably part of the reason they hold money well.
The E46 by contrast is a more fun car all round, at the expense of some practicality (mainly extra doors and boot space albeit I use mine as a second car and its perfect as it has 4 proper seats and the boot fits a decent amount. Its more chuckable, it makes a great noise with the carbon airbox without having to rag it everywhere and the handling is benign enough to hand the tail out and still be able to gather it up. Its a flattering and enjoyable car to drive. Its also fairly bomb proof (there are some well documented foibles but they are fixable) and it also returns surprisingly good economy (which helps the case).
Tor me, V10 aside my M5 simply didn't cut it. Too many things go wrong, the fuel tank needed to be 90L etc.
I've not driven an F10 but if I had my time again, I'd have gone the E63 route instead.
I came from a 522bhp E55 with over 620 lbft of Torque. I can say that I have not missed the "lack" of torque. Sure it doesn't have the same urgency in 7th (5th for Merc) but gearboxes are there for this and therefore drop a few gears and it soon picks up. Plus the noise of the V10 above 1500 rpm in mine makes a nice sound and continues to do so up to the 8250 rpm red line (soon to be 8500 rpm). The M5 also feels a lot more special than the fast taxi E55. The only thing I miss about the E55 is the overall grunt, but that also made it harder to put the power down. I can at least accelerate from low revs in the M5.
Hmm it’s a tough choice , my last car was an m5 and there is no getting around it the driving experience in an v10 m5 is epic. It maybe an itch you have to scratch.
Although I currently own an s54 engine in a z4m coupe.
The m5 will be leagues faster than your m3 but it will cost more to run.
Let’s be honest it’s a nice problem to have
Although I currently own an s54 engine in a z4m coupe.
The m5 will be leagues faster than your m3 but it will cost more to run.
Let’s be honest it’s a nice problem to have
Jazzer said:
The E60 is in a completely different league to the E46.....and most other things on the road.....virtually unbeatable when three digits start.
Given what you say, the E46 is the one for you.....they’re great all rounders, but different from the stunning E60!
Jazzer - what makes you think the M3 is the one for me? I mainly concerned about getting another one like mine if the M5 doesn't do it for me. Good M3's are now very hard to find, and values are doing well. M5's I think are still depreciating and the running costs have always limited their market. For me being able to fit the family in the M5 is a massive bonus!Given what you say, the E46 is the one for you.....they’re great all rounders, but different from the stunning E60!
I'm meeting up with someone I know who has one in the next village this week, so I can really see what I think of them compared to the M3.
Shaoxter said:
I don't think M5s are depreciating at all, I bought one for £15k 5 years ago with 59k miles. A quick look on AT shows there aren't any sub 60k milers at that price.
I agree.Yes there are cheaper cars out there now, higher mileage with shady history, but the good cars are still commanding decent prices.
Just like the M3 you're better off buying one with all the common faults done and those cars command a premium. You want to pay 10-12k for a M5 then expect some big maintenance bills coming you way...
Khaki Suit said:
I agree.
Yes there are cheaper cars out there now, higher mileage with shady history, but the good cars are still commanding decent prices.
Just like the M3 you're better off buying one with all the common faults done and those cars command a premium. You want to pay 10-12k for a M5 then expect some big maintenance bills coming you way...
Mine was up for over £14k but I didn't pay anywhere near that. It is a 76k mile car with FMDSH. I've spent some money on it, new tyres, new suspension bushes, service etc. I've also just had the rod bearings done. Any car with similar miles on I'd be recommending that the rod bearings get done ASAP. You can see what mine looked like in my readers rides thread.Yes there are cheaper cars out there now, higher mileage with shady history, but the good cars are still commanding decent prices.
Just like the M3 you're better off buying one with all the common faults done and those cars command a premium. You want to pay 10-12k for a M5 then expect some big maintenance bills coming you way...
TheAngryDog said:
Mine was up for over £14k but I didn't pay anywhere near that. It is a 76k mile car with FMDSH. I've spent some money on it, new tyres, new suspension bushes, service etc. I've also just had the rod bearings done. Any car with similar miles on I'd be recommending that the rod bearings get done ASAP. You can see what mine looked like in my readers rides thread.
No need mate, still got mine from being done at 60k. 
To be fair though you paid about what the car was worth from Jon given the other potential problem areas which may need addressing. K
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