Just can’t get the shipbuilders nowadays.....

Just can’t get the shipbuilders nowadays.....

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steveatesh

Original Poster:

4,893 posts

163 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
quotequote all
Saw this article on U.K. Detence Journal about HMS Forth having to be handed back to BAE for rework as it was so faulted.

It was this bit about bolt heads that attracted my attention, if true that’s appalling!

“Our contact, currently serving in the Royal Navy and involved with the programme, tells us that the ship has been handed back to BAE due to “the very poor standard of build”. We were told:

“For example bolt heads glued back on (thousands over tightened) high voltage switchboard very dangerous, life rafts failed to launch, wiring sub standard, galley not secured… list is huge.”

I can imagine faults and short cuts being taken but glueing bolt heads on when they have been sheared off?

https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/hms-tyne-to-be-rea...



poo at Paul's

14,116 posts

174 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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Official Secrets Act.......?

glazbagun

14,257 posts

196 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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Not just us, Ze Germans rejected a ship for the first time at the start of the year after they were handed a slow, overweight heap with a list:
https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/201...

And the Americans built a ship that can't fire its guns as the shells cost $800K a go!

https://arstechnica.com/information-technology/201...

Along with the F35 costing a squillion, it's almost like defence contractors are taking the piss.




Edited by glazbagun on Saturday 16th June 21:40

jjlynn27

7,935 posts

108 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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$800,000 not $800.

Seems like clusterfk everywhere.

Oakey

27,523 posts

215 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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I was going to say $800 sounds cheap!

Dogwatch

6,221 posts

221 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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steveatesh said:
galley not secured
eekeek

Scrambled eggs AGAIN!

glazbagun

14,257 posts

196 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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Sorry, deleted the K fixing another typo.

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
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Doesn't surprise me.

We can't even design or make car parts properly, nevermind build a ship.

I was talking to a very well respected engine builder and tuner of vehicles today, and he stated categorically "Any parts made in Britain are complete ste'".

Things like turbos, manifolds, exhausts, intercoolers, brake calipers, pistons, rods, injectors. That kind of thing.

He only buys parts from Japan and the US now, as he's experienced nothing but 'junk' from
UK manufacturers.

cymtriks

4,560 posts

244 months

Saturday 16th June 2018
quotequote all
glazbagun said:
Along with the F35 costing a squillion, it's almost like defence contractors are taking the piss.
On the other hand consider how many people over how many years have been involved in the F135.
Then consider how utterly different it is from every other aircraft.
Then consider how it has to outperform everything else it comes up against
Consider all the testing, analysis, redesigns, training, tooling, manuals, etc
Now spread those costs over a short production run

If you ask a contractor to deliver something just short of impossible they'll charge you the going rate for just short of impossible.

Just to give you a feel for some defence jobs I'm currently in the 15th month of analysis of a pipe. Yes, that's right, a pipe. Though the pipe itself is fairly simple the consequences of design changes are extremely complex. It bolts onto lots of other bits that are extremely complex. The number of people who understand each of those bits is very small.

Another example, bolts. Some bolts are very ordinary, some are very odd (made from very expensive alloys, a special shape and require tooling costing hundreds of thousands to fit). I have been involved with several bolts that are very odd. Analysis of bolts, patterns of bolts, failure of bolts, fatigue life of bolts has taken many years of my working life. The cost per bolt is utterly frightening and may look like someone is "taking the piss" but it is actually a reflection of them being very odd bolts.

tescorank

1,985 posts

230 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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I remember a program recently where a “world Leader” UK company were making airline toilet pods, something in a 380 or Dreamliner pod needed adjustment/design change-you could see our man trying to bluff over it-but there quality inspectors was having none of it-i thought watch out another export we could loose.

WyrleyD

1,883 posts

147 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Also look at the problems stacking up with the Rolls-Royce Trent engines for the Boeing 787, some of the components have been found to a very short serviceable life and it's costing millions and millions to rectify, replace the engines and compensate the airlines. Not something I would have expected of Rolls-Royce so it's affecting even the most highly regarded companies.

hidetheelephants

23,731 posts

192 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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I do have to wonder what the MoD/RN do for quality control these days; once upon a time there would have been some MoD civil servants and a couple of RN officers onsite in the shipyard, supervising and overseeing work under the moniker Principal Naval Overseer or PNO. Does this not happen anymore? This kind of stuff is exactly why you have onsite supervision.

Jim the Sunderer

3,238 posts

181 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Has Stevie Wonder been calibrating torque wrenches again?

wildoliver

8,766 posts

215 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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cymtriks said:
glazbagun said:
Along with the F35 costing a squillion, it's almost like defence contractors are taking the piss.
On the other hand consider how many people over how many years have been involved in the F135.
Then consider how utterly different it is from every other aircraft.
Then consider how it has to outperform everything else it comes up against
Consider all the testing, analysis, redesigns, training, tooling, manuals, etc
Now spread those costs over a short production run

If you ask a contractor to deliver something just short of impossible they'll charge you the going rate for just short of impossible.

Just to give you a feel for some defence jobs I'm currently in the 15th month of analysis of a pipe. Yes, that's right, a pipe. Though the pipe itself is fairly simple the consequences of design changes are extremely complex. It bolts onto lots of other bits that are extremely complex. The number of people who understand each of those bits is very small.

Another example, bolts. Some bolts are very ordinary, some are very odd (made from very expensive alloys, a special shape and require tooling costing hundreds of thousands to fit). I have been involved with several bolts that are very odd. Analysis of bolts, patterns of bolts, failure of bolts, fatigue life of bolts has taken many years of my working life. The cost per bolt is utterly frightening and may look like someone is "taking the piss" but it is actually a reflection of them being very odd bolts.
You have to wonder if the Russians who despite the west constantly claiming to be operating out of date machinery (yet have constantly evolved armament to compete with) have these sort of problems. They have always seemed to follow a simpler is better approach which does have lot of benefits, granted it's backed up by a life is cheap policy too which is distasteful to us in the decadent west.

I do think we look to complicate things a bit too much however.

hairyben

8,516 posts

182 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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wildoliver said:
You have to wonder if the Russians who despite the west constantly claiming to be operating out of date machinery (yet have constantly evolved armament to compete with) have these sort of problems. They have always seemed to follow a simpler is better approach which does have lot of benefits, granted it's backed up by a life is cheap policy too which is distasteful to us in the decadent west.

I do think we look to complicate things a bit too much however.
the price of failure has always been a little higher there, which can have bother positive and negative motivations.

We've definitely gone too far down the road of tolerating incompetence and not making people accountable for their mistakes through. Grenfell for one.

Jonesy23

4,650 posts

135 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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steveatesh said:
It was this bit about bolt heads that attracted my attention, if true that’s appalling!

“For example bolt heads glued back on (thousands over tightened).”

I can imagine faults and short cuts being taken but glueing bolt heads on when they have been sheared off?
Sorry but that sets my bullst alarm off. It screams of someone wanting to make a criticism when the have no idea what they're talking about.

Quite apart from the little detail that gluing bolt heads back on just would never work well enough to achieve even a cosmetic cheat, where exactly in modern welded ship construction are you going to find thousands of bolts to overtighten in the first place?

The only place where they'd ever really appear in a place where the shipbuilder *might* be involved is in sorting out installation of fittings and equipment and those would be all sorts of different sizes and types and if you sheared them it would be immediately obvious as stuff just wouldn't stay put however much glue you used.


So the bullst alarm is telling me we have a 'leak' from someone with no clue, and I see it had the desired effect on the credulous making comments starting from a position of ignorance then heading in the wrong direction.

There probably are all sorts of faults that need rectifying - that would be inevitable and normal - but I would bet someone for this story just made extra stuff up.

Evanivitch

19,800 posts

121 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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A sizeable ship with a few faults? Not really sure what the fuss is about. Fault resolution systems are much more advanced these days, gone are the old paper labels and job cards that can be hidden from the audit man.

wildoliver said:
You have to wonder if the Russians who despite the west constantly claiming to be operating out of date machinery (yet have constantly evolved armament to compete with) have these sort of problems. They have always seemed to follow a simpler is better approach which does have lot of benefits, granted it's backed up by a life is cheap policy too which is distasteful to us in the decadent west.

I do think we look to complicate things a bit too much however.
Russian strategy has changed in the new environment, they no longer have the population or the politics that would support mass losses.

The Armata is a sign of that, 3 man crew with an emphasis on survivability and complex technology.

But it breaks down on parade and is dependent on western electronics for best performance.

But all that said, I wouldn't want to stumble upon one.

TwigtheWonderkid

43,246 posts

149 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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I watched a documentary about how ships are held together. It was riveting.

frankenstein12

1,915 posts

95 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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wildoliver said:
You have to wonder if the Russians who despite the west constantly claiming to be operating out of date machinery (yet have constantly evolved armament to compete with) have these sort of problems. They have always seemed to follow a simpler is better approach which does have lot of benefits, granted it's backed up by a life is cheap policy too which is distasteful to us in the decadent west.

I do think we look to complicate things a bit too much however.
This goes to the absolute heart of the problem imo.

I work in PM and have done for years. I don't have all the common modern Qualifications such as Scrum Prince etc but I started doing the Prince coursework and was fairly stunned with how it turned what should be a quick fluid process into a syrupy nightmare potential.


There are processes just to assess whether you are following process. If I tried running the projects I do to Prince or Agile methodology they would either fail completely or the costs and timeliness would balloon massively.

It seems to be the same across the board as well. Business Management etc. No emphasis on logic or common sense instead it is all about following the process.

Jonesy23

4,650 posts

135 months

Sunday 17th June 2018
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Most Russian hardware was pretty crude stuff. Not so much simple in design as a positive feature as just often very poorly made and designed making allowance for that. Newer stuff may be better.

The reason you wouldn't hear about their cost overruns and problems (which did and do exist as with any complex project) is partially because it wouldn't suit the people who write stories about these things to mention it and partially because the Russian state had and has a vigorous approach to dealing with people who talk when they shouldn't.