The Game Changers Documentary

[DaveGrohl]

gregs656 said:

You can’t, no.

Just the effect the beef industry is having on the Amazon should be enough for anyone to advocate a drop in beef consumption.

It’s mostly beef that is the problem really.

Check it out, there is plenty of data.

Oh I know there's plenty of data. Unfortunately for you the vegan community is completely ignoring it. We're constantly being quoted "science" from the 70s such as dairy products lead to diabetes which has been completely turned on its head by more recent science.

You clearly haven't heard the Joe Rogan/Chris Kresser podcast, it absolutely demolishes just about every argument that vegans have about saving the planet and other things. I could quote you all sorts of little gems of info from it but then we'd be here for a week and you've clearly made up your mind, which is a shame. All that we can ask is that people have all the facts rather than just hear a one-sided propaganda exercise.

I am a mixed farmer, I raise animals and grow crops for human consumption. If you want me to grow only crops then I'll do that for you, but you will get less and less of these crops from my farm over time because the soils will eventually be exhausted without animals returning organic matter to it from time to time. So how do you reconcile ever reducing yields with an ever rising population? And that's wihout even going into the fact that the methane from ruminants simply isn't a problem. It is for a few vegans because they don't understand what the carbon cycle is.

Edited by DaveGrohl on Thursday 28th November 22:53

Edited by DaveGrohl on Thursday 28th November 22:55

[DaveGrohl]

gregs656 said:

Not irrelevant at all.

Just the deforestation from cattle farming should be enough for most people to seriously consider how much beef they are consuming.

I any case, there is plenty of evidence that reducing meat consumption is good for the planet. If The Game Changers makes more people consider it then that's great.

Edited by gregs656 on Thursday 28th November 18:09

Where do you live Greg? I'm genuinely interested because if you're in the UK then all you've seen about US or Brazilian beef production is irrelevant to you because virtually none of it is eaten in the UK. Oh and when they say soy is fed to cattle, they're talking about the waste after humans have taken their bit of it. So if the soy is environmentally damaging then it's a bit rich to blame it on the cattle. If they didn't eat it it'd be going into landfill and then guess what comes out as it rots? Methane. Oh.

[Kenny Powers]

DaveGrohl said:

It is for a few vegans because they simply don't understand what the carbon cycle is.

Or how life works.

[FredClogs]

It's no surprise to me that most vegans are city dwelling types who've never been to a farm or lived in a farming community, their beard wax is probably doing more damage to the environment than me having a steak once a week or Cows milk in my brew.

This whole conversation is so ripe with misinformation, deliberate misunderstanding of the complexity of the discussion and confirmation bias... Don't want to eat meat (or anything else for that matter) then fine, don't... But don't talk ste, especially if you haven't taken the time to actually think or educate yourself to the realities of the complex arguments.

Oh... And I don't know if its been mentioned but James Cameron has a 9 figure investment in a pea protein company and his wife is an owner of vegans schools (whatever the fk they are).

Edited by FredClogs on Thursday 28th November 22:24

Edited by FredClogs on Thursday 28th November 22:25

[DaveGrohl]

Yup. Pea protein than takes a hell of a lot of processing with a massive carbon footprint as a result. Never mind that it actually isn't as nutritious as meat.

[gregs656]

I live in North America currently.

Also not a vegan, I eat a mixed diet and plan to continue to do so. I think on balance cutting out some meat from my diet is better for me and better for the planet.

So far I not heard any evidence convincingly to the contrary.

[grumbledoak]

gregs656 said:

I live in North America currently.

Also not a vegan, I eat a mixed diet and plan to continue to do so. I think on balance cutting out some meat from my diet is better for me and better for the planet.

So far I not heard any evidence convincingly to the contrary.

There's none so blind...

Try Lierre Keith.

[DaveGrohl]

gregs656 said:

I live in North America currently.

Also not a vegan, I eat a mixed diet and plan to continue to do so. I think on balance cutting out some meat from my diet is better for me and better for the planet.

So far I not heard any evidence convincingly to the contrary.

Well I'm glad to hear it, because a mixed diet is precisely the best one for humans of all ages. I will defend your right to personally go vegan if that's what you choose to do, whether you look at the evidence or not is up to you. If you do look at the actual evidence rather than the fairy tales then great, it's still up to you to express your personal choice. It's the misleading of people that is so sickening with the debate as it currently is, that is what I can't abide.

Also there is no doubt that some people do eat too much meat from a health point of view and they could do with cutting down. But there are also people whose health suffers from going on a vegan diet because theyre being persuaded to do it. FWIW I'm vegan but I also eat meat. I love veg, fruit no so much.

Edited by DaveGrohl on Friday 29th November 07:50

[Kenny Powers]

DaveGrohl said:

Also there is no doubt that some people do eat too much meat from a health point of view and they could do with cutting down.

Actually there is plenty of doubt. There is currently no actual scientific evidence that meat consumption in any quantity is harmful to humans. There is some extremely questionable epidemiology to suggest that there may be a risk, but epidemiology has found correlations between blue socks and cancer, among other such 'evidence'. Human nutrition science is currently not capable of proving anything beyond a doubt. The requisite trials are too complicated, too expensive, and too ethically challenged.

We are all free to make up our own minds which body of evidence we are most likely to believe, but let's not assert that there is "no doubt" about claims which are yet to be proven. An epidemiological hypothesis with a laughable hazard ratio, no plausible mechanism, and no clinical trials, proves nothing.

[gregs656]

grumbledoak said:

gregs656 said:

I live in North America currently.

Also not a vegan, I eat a mixed diet and plan to continue to do so. I think on balance cutting out some meat from my diet is better for me and better for the planet.

So far I not heard any evidence convincingly to the contrary.

There's none so blind...

Try Lierre Keith.

She was a vegan. I am not a vegan, I have no plans to be a vegan.

Do you seriously think that cutting out some meat from my diet, particularly beef and particularly beef of unknown origin while living in North America is not healthier for me and better for the planet, given there is a strong possibility beef from an unknown source here is coming from the most damaging types of beef farming?

[biggbn]

I do not eat meat nor consume dairy. I do eat eggs and honey. Why? Because it makes ME feel better. Selfish? Yes. Worthwhile? Totally. For everyone? No. Each to their own, we make our own choices, why try to ram them down the throat of others as I see with the for and against people on an almost daily basis.

[grumbledoak]

gregs656 said:

She was a vegan. I am not a vegan, I have no plans to be a vegan.

Do you seriously think that cutting out some meat from my diet, particularly beef and particularly beef of unknown origin while living in North America is not healthier for me and better for the planet, given there is a strong possibility beef from an unknown source here is coming from the most damaging types of beef farming?

You can and should make your own decisions. Eat what you like in good health.

Spreading misinformation is a different matter. Particularly when aimed at people in the UK where the meat supply is environmentally and ethically pretty sound. This infomercial, and the vegan push going along with it, needs to be called out for what it is. More lies from the industrial food industry.

[gregs656]

grumbledoak said:

You can and should make your own decisions. Eat what you like in good health.

Spreading misinformation is a different matter. Particularly when aimed at people in the UK where the meat supply is environmentally and ethically pretty sound. This infomercial, and the vegan push going along with it, needs to be called out for what it is. More lies from the industrial food industry.

What misinformation have I spread?

[LordGrover]

gregs656 said:

grumbledoak said:

Or, soy. That well known ruminant.
https://www.greenpeace.org/usa/victories/amazon-ra...

Grown in large quantities to feed cattle.

Actually grown for it's oil. The mash that's left over as a by-product is fed to animals.

[grumbledoak]

gregs656 said:

What misinformation have I spread?

I'm going to need a PC to quote you properly, so let's start with the last few posts:
Amazon clearing for beef
Soy mostly grown to feed cattle

[gregs656]

grumbledoak said:

I'm going to need a PC to quote you properly, so let's start with the last few posts:
Amazon clearing for beef
Soy mostly grown to feed cattle

The amazon clearing for beef is undisputed. It accounts for about 70% of the cleared rainforest in Brazil.

Soy is mostly grown to feed cattle, that is what drives the growth in soy bean production and has done since the mid 40s. Demand for the oil hasn't grown on the same scale so it is sold cheaply. It is not true that the oil or the meal are waste products, they are by products, but if the demand for soy meal hadn't grown it is not likely that soy would be grown on the same scale it is today. This also is well recorded.

[J4CKO]

Watched it, felt a bit cult-ish and over zealous.

I think its not a bad thing to reduce meat intake but its a bit of a nuclear option going vegan, you have to be committed, convinced and live it, its not for everyone, its hard and seems to be for me, a bit pointless, I have more understanding of being a vegetarian having done it for a year, couldnt face meat was the reason.

I think there are valid concerns, and like gender fluidity and other ways to identify there are genuine cases, but a lot seems to be a way to have a gimmick, "arent I different and special", saw it in local government, one group had members that were vegetarians, then one upped to vegans and some decided to be "fruitarians", which is like super strict veganism, but it lasted a few days as it was all bks and one upmanship.

Some athletes going vegan and having a managed diet isnt quite the usual person, who remembers they are vegan when at the M and S sandwich fridge and looks for the vegan options, or knocks up something at home which is vegan ish, its bloody hard but getting better, even so not something you can do part time.

I love the bit about boners, seemed very convincing for men, we all want a good solid erection, at any age, on command and to jizz like a racehorse, seemed a bit contrived, plenty you can do to help that without resorting to veganism, cut out st food, booze, fags and get some exercise, eat some veg instead of pasties and other beige stuff, can see loads of blokes turning to veganism cos they cant get it up, it isnt meat, its obesity, heart disease, being bladdered or just old age creeping in.

[gregs656]

The Game Changers doesn't advocate veganism.

[DaveGrohl]

J4CKO said:

Watched it, felt a bit cult-ish and over zealous.

I think its not a bad thing to reduce meat intake but its a bit of a nuclear option going vegan, you have to be committed, convinced and live it, its not for everyone, its hard and seems to be for me, a bit pointless, I have more understanding of being a vegetarian having done it for a year, couldnt face meat was the reason.

I think there are valid concerns, and like gender fluidity and other ways to identify there are genuine cases, but a lot seems to be a way to have a gimmick, "arent I different and special", saw it in local government, one group had members that were vegetarians, then one upped to vegans and some decided to be "fruitarians", which is like super strict veganism, but it lasted a few days as it was all bks and one upmanship.

Some athletes going vegan and having a managed diet isnt quite the usual person, who remembers they are vegan when at the M and S sandwich fridge and looks for the vegan options, or knocks up something at home which is vegan ish, its bloody hard but getting better, even so not something you can do part time.

I love the bit about boners, seemed very convincing for men, we all want a good solid erection, at any age, on command and to jizz like a racehorse, seemed a bit contrived, plenty you can do to help that without resorting to veganism, cut out st food, booze, fags and get some exercise, eat some veg instead of pasties and other beige stuff, can see loads of blokes turning to veganism cos they cant get it up, it isnt meat, its obesity, heart disease, being bladdered or just old age creeping in.

I'd suggest you listen to the Rogan/Kresser podcast about it but it sounds like you've got your head sufficiently screwed on anyway.

[Kenny Powers]

gregs656 said:

The Game Changers doesn't advocate veganism.

You're right, but let's be realistic here. It is esposuing a vegan diet. Specifically, a plant-based meat-free diet, sure, but that is what vegans eat. The vegan executive producers probably felt it would be a bridge too far to pretend that wearing leather shoes will also wilt your morning erections. There's only so much that even the easily-impressed can be manipulated into believing. The film may not explicitly promote widespread adoration of ethical veganism, or whatever we want to call it today, but to suggest that this is not its ambition is erroneous at best, and disingenuous at worst.

Only in my opinion, of course.

Edited by Kenny Powers on Saturday 30th November 11:46