The Game Changers Documentary
Discussion
Watched half of it just now and had to stop at the bit where it started trying to justify that we never evolved to eat meat by using a load of opinion and pseudo science. Sure.....B12 does exist elsewhere, and sure, canine teeth can be used to threaten. But B12 supplements weren’t something our ancestors could have hunted or known to produce, so meat would have been the only source.
And sure, you can get it from eating poo. But we don’t have a desire to eat poo. But we do have a desire to eat meat (at a base level). So which looks like the more likely source of protein for
An evolutionary point of view.
I strongly dislike this sort of ‘documentary’. It treads they same path as flat earth ‘science’ or ‘9/11 deniers’. A more balanced documentary would have approached from the more balanced angle that as a modern society we have a very unbalanced diet. We eat far too much meat for an animal that evolved as an omnivore. I often feel like I’m the only person in our office who regularly eats salad and fruit.
Meat should be seen as a regular but not dominant food source. There’s a lot of good in not eating it all the time (exactly like our ancestors would have done) and eating plenty of fruit and veg. And replacing Pop Eye’s chicken bites for some grilled chicken breast, is clearly a far healthier way of consuming meat.
And sure, you can get it from eating poo. But we don’t have a desire to eat poo. But we do have a desire to eat meat (at a base level). So which looks like the more likely source of protein for
An evolutionary point of view.
I strongly dislike this sort of ‘documentary’. It treads they same path as flat earth ‘science’ or ‘9/11 deniers’. A more balanced documentary would have approached from the more balanced angle that as a modern society we have a very unbalanced diet. We eat far too much meat for an animal that evolved as an omnivore. I often feel like I’m the only person in our office who regularly eats salad and fruit.
Meat should be seen as a regular but not dominant food source. There’s a lot of good in not eating it all the time (exactly like our ancestors would have done) and eating plenty of fruit and veg. And replacing Pop Eye’s chicken bites for some grilled chicken breast, is clearly a far healthier way of consuming meat.
RacerMike said:
Watched half of it just now and had to stop at the bit where it started trying to justify that we never evolved to eat meat by using a load of opinion and pseudo science. Sure.....B12 does exist elsewhere, and sure, canine teeth can be used to threaten. But B12 supplements weren’t something our ancestors could have hunted or known to produce, so meat would have been the only source.
.
meat and poo were not the only source of b12 for ancient humans.
Halb said:
RacerMike said:
Watched half of it just now and had to stop at the bit where it started trying to justify that we never evolved to eat meat by using a load of opinion and pseudo science. Sure.....B12 does exist elsewhere, and sure, canine teeth can be used to threaten. But B12 supplements weren’t something our ancestors could have hunted or known to produce, so meat would have been the only source.
.
meat and poo were not the only source of b12 for ancient humans.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-evolut...
RacerMike said:
What were they? Everything I’ve read indicates that our reliance on B12 in our diet comes precisely from our omnivorous dietary evolution. The only way it’s produced naturally is in the intestine.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-evolut...
"Early humans received plenty of B12 from the good quality (cobalt-rich) soil that was yet to be intensively farmed and drained of nutrients, and because they drank dirty ("natural") water from rivers which also contained B12 and B12 producing bacteria.19 Feb 2017."https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-evolut...
Halb said:
RacerMike said:
What were they? Everything I’ve read indicates that our reliance on B12 in our diet comes precisely from our omnivorous dietary evolution. The only way it’s produced naturally is in the intestine.
https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-evolut...
"Early humans received plenty of B12 from the good quality (cobalt-rich) soil that was yet to be intensively farmed and drained of nutrients, and because they drank dirty ("natural") water from rivers which also contained B12 and B12 producing bacteria.19 Feb 2017."https://www.discovermagazine.com/health/the-evolut...
The fact also that the quote comes from a website ‘riseofthevegan.com’ should be enough for anyone needs to question the validity of such a statement, least of all someone trying to use that as counter argument that quotes a reasonably well respected magazine. Much like one would question ‘evidence’ from The Flat Earth Society when countering evidence that the Earth is round from The New Scientist.
B12 in synthesised in the gut of animals. Our guts do it too, but we do so in a way which means we just poo it out without absorbing it.
As I said....I switched off at this point in the documentary precisely because of the kind of pseudo science you quoted.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 9th December 22:24
tty toilet water I can give up eating meat?
RacerMike said:
Ah yes. The old, ‘lets put something in Google and copy and paste the first thing it comes up with including the date’ technique of scientific research.
The fact also that the quote comes from a website ‘riseofthevegan.com’ should be enough for anyone needs to question the validity of such a statement, least of all someone trying to use that as counter argument that quotes a reasonably well respected magazine. Much like one would question ‘evidence’ from The Flat Earth Society when countering evidence that the Earth is round from The New Scientist.
B12 in synthesised in the gut of animals. Our guts do it too, but we do so in a way which means we just poo it out without absorbing it.
As I said....I switched off at this point in the documentary precisely because of the kind of pseudo science you quoted.
For this matter it is sufficient. I looked into the b12 thing years ago, and it's something that isn't an issue or the old argument it was. ANimals are fed it to pass it onto us. It was simply a way to explain it. The fact also that the quote comes from a website ‘riseofthevegan.com’ should be enough for anyone needs to question the validity of such a statement, least of all someone trying to use that as counter argument that quotes a reasonably well respected magazine. Much like one would question ‘evidence’ from The Flat Earth Society when countering evidence that the Earth is round from The New Scientist.
B12 in synthesised in the gut of animals. Our guts do it too, but we do so in a way which means we just poo it out without absorbing it.
As I said....I switched off at this point in the documentary precisely because of the kind of pseudo science you quoted.
Edited by RacerMike on Monday 9th December 22:24
Halb said:
For this matter it is sufficient. I looked into the b12 thing years ago, and it's something that isn't an issue or the old argument it was. ANimals are fed it to pass it onto us. It was simply a way to explain it.
Presumably you didn’t even bother to read the article I linked to. Animals don’t eat it. The bacteria in their (and our) gut synthesises it in the same way Vitamin K is synthesised in our gut by gut bacteria. There’s only pseudo science that claims it’s from eating soil or drinking dirty water....RacerMike said:
Presumably you didn’t even bother to read the article I linked to. Animals don’t eat it. The bacteria in their (and our) gut synthesises it in the same way Vitamin K is synthesised in our gut by gut bacteria. There’s only pseudo science that claims it’s from eating soil or drinking dirty water....
YOu're right I didn't read it. I've looked into it previously, and acquiring b12 via methods other than meat is possible, mushrooms, algae etc"The synthesized B12 is transferred and accumulated in animal tissues, even in certain plant tissues via microbial interaction"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29216732
New Carnivore MD Podcast. Paul Saladino with guest Brian Sanders, discussing the recent James Wilks vs. Chris Kresser showdown on The Joe Rogan Experience. I haven't yet listened to this one but will do today. Brian has no axe to grind in the carnivore space, but Paul does, so obviously I expect this to have at least a partial bias against The Game Changers and Wilks. Nevertheless I'm very much looking forward to listening.
"Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser? With Brian Sanders of Food Lies"
"Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser? With Brian Sanders of Food Lies"
Edited by Kenny Powers on Tuesday 10th December 07:59
Halb said:
RacerMike said:
Presumably you didn’t even bother to read the article I linked to. Animals don’t eat it. The bacteria in their (and our) gut synthesises it in the same way Vitamin K is synthesised in our gut by gut bacteria. There’s only pseudo science that claims it’s from eating soil or drinking dirty water....
YOu're right I didn't read it. I've looked into it previously, and acquiring b12 via methods other than meat is possible, mushrooms, algae etc"The synthesized B12 is transferred and accumulated in animal tissues, even in certain plant tissues via microbial interaction"
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/29216732
Kenny Powers said:
New Carnivore MD Podcast. Paul Saladino with guest Brian Sanders, discussing the recent James Wilks vs. Chris Kresser showdown on The Joe Rogan Experience. I haven't yet listened to this one but will do today. Brian has no axe to grind in the carnivore space, but Paul does, so obviously I expect this to have at least a partial bias against The Game Changers and Wilks. Nevertheless I'm very much looking forward to listening.
"Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser? With Brian Sanders of Food Lies"
OMG we really are in danger of disappearing down a rabbit hole aren't we? I'm trying desperately to keep listening to the "showdown" but Wilks is becoming soooo aggressive it's difficult to listen to. It's not a stance that's making him come across well imho, as understandable as it is that he feels enraged by Kresser questioning the validity of the film."Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser? With Brian Sanders of Food Lies"
Edited by Kenny Powers on Tuesday 10th December 07:59
zygalski said:
B12 supplements?
They don't grow on a tree though do they? And as we evolved, we didn't evolve with the ability to make B12 supplements. If you read the first article I quoted, it details that our inability to absorb the B12 synthesised in our intestines was as a result of readily available and easily absorbed B12 from meat. The requirement for B12 synthesis and absorption thereafter became redundant as the meat in our diet provided what we needed.We are fundamentally Omnivores whatever any vegan will have you believe. We evolved to eat both meat and plant matter as this diversity is what allowed us to live in a variety of environments and grow bigger, more energy consuming brains. It's these comments like 'B12 isn't just from meat' that dismiss the strong scientific evidence that meat played a large role in our evolution which weaken documentaries like this.
It's fine if you don't want to eat meat, and given the pressure on the environment that meat production has, I'd implore everyone to try and eat less. But to deny that we're Onivores and somehow try and imply that meat kills us all and you'll be more healthy without it is genuine pseudo science. We have evolved to eat meat end of. The fact that we're intelligent and able to look beyond our needs, means we have the ability to choose if we do or not. That doesn't immediately mean we aren't evolved to eat it though.
Edited by RacerMike on Tuesday 10th December 13:08
Kenny Powers said:
New Carnivore MD Podcast. Paul Saladino with guest Brian Sanders, discussing the recent James Wilks vs. Chris Kresser showdown on The Joe Rogan Experience. I haven't yet listened to this one but will do today. Brian has no axe to grind in the carnivore space, but Paul does, so obviously I expect this to have at least a partial bias against The Game Changers and Wilks. Nevertheless I'm very much looking forward to listening.
"Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser? With Brian Sanders of Food Lies"
Gee. That was a pretty brutal deconstruction of Wilks' rebuttals and bullying of Kresser. The question is does he have the minerals to accept the challenge of Saladino's science face-off? I don't think this conversation is over yet. Over to you, Joe Rogan. Make it happen "Did James Wilks Get Anything Right Against Chris Kresser? With Brian Sanders of Food Lies"
Edited by Kenny Powers on Tuesday 10th December 07:59
RacerMike said:
I'm sorry, but all you're doing is proving my point. You can't just dismiss it as a simple 'B12 isn't an issue' as they do in the documentary. It glosses over huge issues for the sake them being inconvenient to the point being pedalled. This is not good documentary making. It's more akin to the tactics used in Flat Earth videos where decent scientific evidence that potentially undermines their argument is ignored. Look at any genuinely balanced documentary and you'll tend to find it embraces both sides of the discussion.
Well that' where we disagree. THe point that is proved by the link is that b12 can come from non meat sources. That's all I commented on.
Halb said:
RacerMike said:
I'm sorry, but all you're doing is proving my point. You can't just dismiss it as a simple 'B12 isn't an issue' as they do in the documentary. It glosses over huge issues for the sake them being inconvenient to the point being pedalled. This is not good documentary making. It's more akin to the tactics used in Flat Earth videos where decent scientific evidence that potentially undermines their argument is ignored. Look at any genuinely balanced documentary and you'll tend to find it embraces both sides of the discussion.
Well that' where we disagree. THe point that is proved by the link is that b12 can come from non meat sources. That's all I commented on.RacerMike said:
None of which provide natural B12 in the quantities needed. If they did....we wouldn't need to eat meat or substitute with supplements.
it would depends on the quantities eaten. 3gm of Chlorella (which I used to drop in my shakes, I'm not plant based it was for other reasons) covers daily need
Edited by Halb on Tuesday 10th December 15:22
Gassing Station | TV, Film, Video Streaming & Radio | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff