White House Farm murders - ITV series
Discussion
I followed this case at the time and it was fascinating. I knew a few Essex officers and was at courses in Chelmsford in the middle/late 80s, around the time of the trial and the criticisms. It was a matter of some embarrassment to the officers in the force and, one would hope, to the force itself. On one course, there was a defrocked detective sergeant (DS) who had just got his rank back and he had some strong opinions on the enquiry.
Essex, at that time, was very progressive in many ways. Their traffic department was highly professional, with high standards for their training. Their firearms unit was seen, at least in the early 80s, as the class of the home counties. They ran a lot of training courses at Chelmsford that were well regarded (and didn’t they like to tell you all about them).
The scene evidence was corrupted. This was unforgiveable. Rumours abounded that there was pressure brought on the senior investigating officer (SIO) to clear the matter up as discretely as possible. It was a possibility, but even so, there’s discrete and there’s sleeving.
I watched the first episode of the six of the ITV series last night. Some things stood out for me.
It was of vary high production quality, with a very good script (so far, it can be difficult to keep up as the plot and character develop), great acting and the locations were spot on. The twins were good.
The first discordant bit was the hardened, old style, do-it-his-way DS against the SIO. It was hardly breaking the mould. That said, I doubt there’s a bobby in the world who can’t put a name to the detective constable (DC) who just sort of hangs around awaiting being pointed somewhere.
The casual nature of actions at the scene seem to me to be all but impossible. Mistakes were made, any number of them, but the type and frequency seemed well over the top. The SIO was experienced and would have done things better, even if he was trying to deal with the matter speedily (unknown if true of course). If it had been the daughter who’d gone on a rampage, then the coroner would have wanted evidence of it at his hearing.
I’m not sure any female police officer would give multiple death messages to the NoK on a doorstep. Whilst the scene was highly emotional, and great TV, it would not have happened. In any case, if they were going to collapse, my experience is that they do it before you’ve said anything.
I get the feeling that I can predict the nature of the rest of the series, with the DS valiantly battling corporate indifference.
At the time, and certainly since, I’ve been convinced of Bramber’s guilt. Firstly, the jury found him so, albeit with a majority, helpfully explained on Wiki as: 10:2, only one more person to say not guilty and he’d be free. Secondly, there was lots of evidence to support the method he used.
Thirdly, and both unreasonably and illogically, the nature of those who call for his release because he’s obviously innocent. Pretty boy Galloway for one. The PR released by the defence team has been pretty crude at times.
A poor showing by Essex, for which they were heavily criticised, and quite rightly. The progress of such a major incident should have been supervised closely. However, they got their man in the end.
I’m looking forward to the next and subsequent episodes with interest.
Essex, at that time, was very progressive in many ways. Their traffic department was highly professional, with high standards for their training. Their firearms unit was seen, at least in the early 80s, as the class of the home counties. They ran a lot of training courses at Chelmsford that were well regarded (and didn’t they like to tell you all about them).
The scene evidence was corrupted. This was unforgiveable. Rumours abounded that there was pressure brought on the senior investigating officer (SIO) to clear the matter up as discretely as possible. It was a possibility, but even so, there’s discrete and there’s sleeving.
I watched the first episode of the six of the ITV series last night. Some things stood out for me.
It was of vary high production quality, with a very good script (so far, it can be difficult to keep up as the plot and character develop), great acting and the locations were spot on. The twins were good.
The first discordant bit was the hardened, old style, do-it-his-way DS against the SIO. It was hardly breaking the mould. That said, I doubt there’s a bobby in the world who can’t put a name to the detective constable (DC) who just sort of hangs around awaiting being pointed somewhere.
The casual nature of actions at the scene seem to me to be all but impossible. Mistakes were made, any number of them, but the type and frequency seemed well over the top. The SIO was experienced and would have done things better, even if he was trying to deal with the matter speedily (unknown if true of course). If it had been the daughter who’d gone on a rampage, then the coroner would have wanted evidence of it at his hearing.
I’m not sure any female police officer would give multiple death messages to the NoK on a doorstep. Whilst the scene was highly emotional, and great TV, it would not have happened. In any case, if they were going to collapse, my experience is that they do it before you’ve said anything.
I get the feeling that I can predict the nature of the rest of the series, with the DS valiantly battling corporate indifference.
At the time, and certainly since, I’ve been convinced of Bramber’s guilt. Firstly, the jury found him so, albeit with a majority, helpfully explained on Wiki as: 10:2, only one more person to say not guilty and he’d be free. Secondly, there was lots of evidence to support the method he used.
Thirdly, and both unreasonably and illogically, the nature of those who call for his release because he’s obviously innocent. Pretty boy Galloway for one. The PR released by the defence team has been pretty crude at times.
A poor showing by Essex, for which they were heavily criticised, and quite rightly. The progress of such a major incident should have been supervised closely. However, they got their man in the end.
I’m looking forward to the next and subsequent episodes with interest.
Welshbeef said:
Is it factually true all the windows locked and on the latches and the doors locked from the inside with the keys still in the doors (on the inside).
If so how could someone escape ie another killer escape?
From memory, Bamber returned to the locked farmhouse a little while later without keys. He climbed in through a window (ground floor toilet?) and let himself out another way.If so how could someone escape ie another killer escape?
Remember that this was planned. It's easy enough to secure windows from the outside.
Derek Smith said:
I’m not sure any female police officer would give multiple death messages to the NoK on a doorstep. Whilst the scene was highly emotional, and great TV, it would not have happened. In any case, if they were going to collapse, my experience is that they do it before you’ve said anything.
Only watched it last night and the Mrs pointed out the the same thing (I did point it was a dramatisation!)I know a little about the real events but might not read up any more on it until after the series has finished.
Anyone still watching this series?
I have family who moved to the area quite recently and drove past White House Farm yesterday - it's a very rural area, so everyone knows each other and gossip is rife.
Apparently, the local opinion is that he's innocent and just a very odd character. They think his sister did do it as initially suspected.
If some of the rumours I've heard are true, there should be a few twists left in this series yet.
I have family who moved to the area quite recently and drove past White House Farm yesterday - it's a very rural area, so everyone knows each other and gossip is rife.
Apparently, the local opinion is that he's innocent and just a very odd character. They think his sister did do it as initially suspected.
If some of the rumours I've heard are true, there should be a few twists left in this series yet.
Finding this an interesting watch, was surprised to see there are 6 episodes, so more to come.
I wondered if the show was over-doing JB's part to make him appear more guilty than perhaps he may have been, but, having checked out the wikipedia page, so far the show has generally followed the official story.
I wondered if the show was over-doing JB's part to make him appear more guilty than perhaps he may have been, but, having checked out the wikipedia page, so far the show has generally followed the official story.
Welshbeef said:
Still watching.
I’ve previously seen the 2018 ITV documentary which was from Bambers side and proved you could shoot if flexible and also huge doubt on the silencer. The view then was this could move it to not meet beyond reasonable doubt.
I didn't see that documentary, so difficult to appraise both sidesI’ve previously seen the 2018 ITV documentary which was from Bambers side and proved you could shoot if flexible and also huge doubt on the silencer. The view then was this could move it to not meet beyond reasonable doubt.
My main thought about it all is Occam's razor (simplest explanation is usually the correct one) ....
If she found it difficult to pull the trigger, then why not simply remove the silencer ?
Who stood to gain the most from the murders ?
On the wikipedia entry, it mentions JB in casual talk to a policeman after the bodies were found, of getting a Porsche from selling the caravan site, so you can see where his thoughts were that day ...
Edited by MikeyC on Thursday 30th January 11:00
anonymous said:
[redacted]
There were significant and far-reaching changes to the way major enquiries were conducted after that. The HOLMES system was brought in and was a revolution. All forces in England/Wales use it, or rather HOLMES2 now, and it has improved policing to a tremendous extent. Stable door and all that, but better late than never. I say late, but we were in the vanguard of computerisation of major incidents.The good thing about it is that it still allows for initiatives and intelligent policing on the enquiry.
Not only that, in some enquires that appear to have bogged down, or there are concerns about, another team is brought in to review the way the case is developing and to make suggestions. Forces from all over Europe came to view HOLMES when it started.
A self-indulgence is watching the cold-case programmes on TV. I've given up watching American productions as they appear so amateur. Whilst you might, for very valid reasons, grimace at some of the mistakes made in the White House case, the possibility of such a thing happening again has been drastically, and significantly, reduced.
HOLMES can be/is used for other applications as well, such as when there are a high number of casualties. In addition, the number of people who phone in, saying that their husband/wife/child/significant other is missing and was definitely in the area, is remarkably high. Many people who have mislaid someone, sometimes decades before, get their names on the list 'just in case'. Run them through HOLMES and you have a truer number of the actual missing and their identities.
If Jeremy was responsible then i've always thought that it would have been a very difficult thing to have done alone.
Even if the silencer was on the whole time he would have been up against 3 fully grown adults, one of which at least made it downstairs for an ensuing struggle and then finally he would have had to stage a suicide, it just seems a very complicated and risky feat.
Sheila on the other hand would have been up against June who was seemingly killed instantly which just leaves Nevill who may have staggered downstairs whilst she reloaded the gun then finished him in the kitchen.
Of course we'll never know.
Even if the silencer was on the whole time he would have been up against 3 fully grown adults, one of which at least made it downstairs for an ensuing struggle and then finally he would have had to stage a suicide, it just seems a very complicated and risky feat.
Sheila on the other hand would have been up against June who was seemingly killed instantly which just leaves Nevill who may have staggered downstairs whilst she reloaded the gun then finished him in the kitchen.
Of course we'll never know.
Welshbeef said:
Is it factually true all the windows locked and on the latches and the doors locked from the inside with the keys still in the doors (on the inside).
If so how could someone escape ie another killer escape?
One of the relatives discovered that the kitchen window could be locked from the outside. The latch could be engaged after exit.If so how could someone escape ie another killer escape?
I’ve no idea if he is guilty or not clearly a jury found him guilty.
However one thing the way a person does or doesn’t react with grief or in this case mass murder of his family. When I lost one grandad I’d been so emotionally drained and cried out before the day of the funeral I didn’t cry at all on the actual day - not sure why I felt extremely sad but maybe I’d possibly accepted it/parked it so I could give more support to mum.
If that horrible situation did happen to me I’m pretty sure I’d be saying I’d be buying Rolex or E-Type Jag as that’s what my dad always wanted - not sure I’d be saying it standing beside the just discovered victims more like many months later.
(I’m sure he did do it though).
However one thing the way a person does or doesn’t react with grief or in this case mass murder of his family. When I lost one grandad I’d been so emotionally drained and cried out before the day of the funeral I didn’t cry at all on the actual day - not sure why I felt extremely sad but maybe I’d possibly accepted it/parked it so I could give more support to mum.
If that horrible situation did happen to me I’m pretty sure I’d be saying I’d be buying Rolex or E-Type Jag as that’s what my dad always wanted - not sure I’d be saying it standing beside the just discovered victims more like many months later.
(I’m sure he did do it though).
Bamber was as guilty as sin. To suggest otherwise is folly. I watched procedings at the time and his actions and attittude immediately after the murders was bizarre to say the least. He acted like he'd got away with it.
The SIO as portrayed was surely not as hard nosed and rude to both the victim's family and his own staff was he? I know it is a matter of record that he threw the cousin out of his office for daring to suggest it wasn't murder/suicide, but his lack of willingness to consider anything else is laughable.
The SIO as portrayed was surely not as hard nosed and rude to both the victim's family and his own staff was he? I know it is a matter of record that he threw the cousin out of his office for daring to suggest it wasn't murder/suicide, but his lack of willingness to consider anything else is laughable.
Watch this, "Massacre At The Farm-Crimes That Shook Britain" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_S9U_ljZpts
And see if your opinion of guilt still stands.
And see if your opinion of guilt still stands.
nonsequitur said:
One of the relatives discovered that the kitchen window could be locked from the outside. The latch could be engaged after exit.
Was that a relative who stood the chance of inheriting more with Bamber out of the way? If she knew about it how many others - could it have been her?
Welshbeef said:
nonsequitur said:
One of the relatives discovered that the kitchen window could be locked from the outside. The latch could be engaged after exit.
Was that a relative who stood the chance of inheriting more with Bamber out of the way? If she knew about it how many others - could it have been her?
Whoever did it the way (according to the drama) that the police force dealt with evidence is shocking and if it was someone else then clearly any evidence is destroyed.
Who financially gained from Bamber being locked up? Don’t the cousins live in the farm and have done since? Sweet result for them
Who financially gained from Bamber being locked up? Don’t the cousins live in the farm and have done since? Sweet result for them
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