White House Farm murders - ITV series
Discussion
youngsyr said:
Having looked into it in a bit more detail, I think it's pretty conclusive Jeremy Bamber did it, for the following reasons:
- He said he could/would do it to more than one person.
Clearly the guy was immature for his age, plenty of stroppy teenagers say this sort of thing all the time. It doesn’t make them the Ian Brady.
- There was absolutely no evidence of Sheila Bamber having shot a rifle 25 times and reloaded it twice.
Team Bamber say the police noted someone had used the shower. They have an ‘expert’ (I wonder how many of these experts would give evidence without large paymentt!) who claims this is classic of someone in this mental state. They put forward it’s similar to other killings were it’s almost ritualistic that she may have put the silencer away then showered and changed.
- There was no evidence that Sheila Bamber could operate the rifle proficiently in the way that the killer clearly did.
Unfortunately the very people who would probably know best are all dead. It’s hard to believe a girl who grew up on a farm had no experience of firing a gun.
- Incontrovertible evidence that Jeremy Bamber could operate that rifle proficiently and indeed he claimed to have handled it earlier that evening.
Circumstantial at best.
- Evidence that Sheila Bamber held no ill will towards her father at all.
She certainly hated the mother, it’s unlikely he didn’t also support the mother on the abortion and what sort of person allows his wife to call their daughter a devil child. Note this wasn’t a throw away comment, she was a religious fanatic. If sheila has gone nuts I doubt she would stop just because Neville asked politely.
- Clear evidence that someone other than Sheila struggled with Neville Bamber in the kitchen during the murders.
Is this the same Neville who couldn’t phone the police as he had already had his jaw shot off? I’m not convinced someone in a psychotic state couldn’t overpower a half dead older man.
- Clear evidence that Neville was incapable of making the telephone call to Jeremy that he claimed.
Is there? Why couldn’t he phone before he had his mouth shot off?
- By his own admission, Jeremy Bamber not only knew how to get into the house whilst making it look secured, but that he did so in the days following the murders.
Circumstantial again, so did the cousin, what if she was dressed up as Sheila in a wig?
On top of that, when you look at the appeal documents, at lot of the grounds of appeal are very thin - pointing out people not remembering certain facts and sequences 15 years after the event, etc. agreed on these, it does feel like team Bamber are throwing s
t at everything and hoping something sticks.
I agree I think he did it. But I’m not convinced it’s ‘beyond question’ and two jurors certainly thought it wasn’t beyond reasonable doubt.- He said he could/would do it to more than one person.
Clearly the guy was immature for his age, plenty of stroppy teenagers say this sort of thing all the time. It doesn’t make them the Ian Brady.
- There was absolutely no evidence of Sheila Bamber having shot a rifle 25 times and reloaded it twice.
Team Bamber say the police noted someone had used the shower. They have an ‘expert’ (I wonder how many of these experts would give evidence without large paymentt!) who claims this is classic of someone in this mental state. They put forward it’s similar to other killings were it’s almost ritualistic that she may have put the silencer away then showered and changed.
- There was no evidence that Sheila Bamber could operate the rifle proficiently in the way that the killer clearly did.
Unfortunately the very people who would probably know best are all dead. It’s hard to believe a girl who grew up on a farm had no experience of firing a gun.
- Incontrovertible evidence that Jeremy Bamber could operate that rifle proficiently and indeed he claimed to have handled it earlier that evening.
Circumstantial at best.
- Evidence that Sheila Bamber held no ill will towards her father at all.
She certainly hated the mother, it’s unlikely he didn’t also support the mother on the abortion and what sort of person allows his wife to call their daughter a devil child. Note this wasn’t a throw away comment, she was a religious fanatic. If sheila has gone nuts I doubt she would stop just because Neville asked politely.
- Clear evidence that someone other than Sheila struggled with Neville Bamber in the kitchen during the murders.
Is this the same Neville who couldn’t phone the police as he had already had his jaw shot off? I’m not convinced someone in a psychotic state couldn’t overpower a half dead older man.
- Clear evidence that Neville was incapable of making the telephone call to Jeremy that he claimed.
Is there? Why couldn’t he phone before he had his mouth shot off?
- By his own admission, Jeremy Bamber not only knew how to get into the house whilst making it look secured, but that he did so in the days following the murders.
Circumstantial again, so did the cousin, what if she was dressed up as Sheila in a wig?
On top of that, when you look at the appeal documents, at lot of the grounds of appeal are very thin - pointing out people not remembering certain facts and sequences 15 years after the event, etc. agreed on these, it does feel like team Bamber are throwing s
t at everything and hoping something sticks.See above, I’m not arguing I’m just running through the scenarios!
youngsyr said:
I listed 8 specific points that incriminate Jeremy Bamber.
You half addressed 4, then went off on a ramble.
The specific evidence in this case points to Jeremy Bamber as the killer, that is beyond question.
I’m not sure it is - and as we know 2 on the jury thought he was innocent. You half addressed 4, then went off on a ramble.
The specific evidence in this case points to Jeremy Bamber as the killer, that is beyond question.
Welshbeef said:
Ok
But they vote in a binary way guilty or not guilty. In the eyes of the law you are innocent until proven guilty
Yes but being found not guilty isn’t the same as being found innocent.But they vote in a binary way guilty or not guilty. In the eyes of the law you are innocent until proven guilty
I’ll rephrase that “Yes but being found not guilty isn’t the same as being innocent” 10 people who heard the all the evidence had no doubt of his guilt, two had some doubt.
Edited by 4Q on Tuesday 18th February 22:06
From what I've read the evidence against JB was very thin at best and wouldn't stand up in court by today's standards. Just one example, the 'sound monitor' (silencer) had a spot of shelia's blood on it, its later been proved that it's not and could have come from an animal.
What really convinced the jury was the testimony from JBs recently jilted girlfriend. It was her word against his. She was an unreliable witness imo because firstly she had a history of petty crime including claiming her cheque book had been stolen while cashing cheques.. Secondly as you saw at the end of the film she had a deal with the News of the World to sell her story for 25k. Question is, did she get that deal before she gave evidence? What do you think? If she had then her evidence should have been ruled inadmissible due to her profiting from her story. Without her 'evidence ' JB would almost certainly have been acquitted.
I think he's probably guilty, but I'm amazed at the lack of evidence.
What really convinced the jury was the testimony from JBs recently jilted girlfriend. It was her word against his. She was an unreliable witness imo because firstly she had a history of petty crime including claiming her cheque book had been stolen while cashing cheques.. Secondly as you saw at the end of the film she had a deal with the News of the World to sell her story for 25k. Question is, did she get that deal before she gave evidence? What do you think? If she had then her evidence should have been ruled inadmissible due to her profiting from her story. Without her 'evidence ' JB would almost certainly have been acquitted.
I think he's probably guilty, but I'm amazed at the lack of evidence.
The thing with the silencer was she couldn't have shot herself with the silencer in place. As no one woke up during the shooting the assumption was the murderer shot everyone using the silencer then removed it. There was no reason for her to have done that if she was the murderer. Take it off, yes. Take it off and put in a cupboard downstairs, no.
DickyC said:
The thing with the silencer was she couldn't have shot herself with the silencer in place. As no one woke up during the shooting the assumption was the murderer shot everyone using the silencer then removed it. There was no reason for her to have done that if she was the murderer. Take it off, yes. Take it off and put in a cupboard downstairs, no.
Maybe no silencer was used at all. Imagine 3am sound asleep.
Bang bang 2 kids killed.
Grandma and Grandad wake up puzzled think WTF did they hear a gun or something falling and crashing on the floor so Grandma goes out the bedroom to check - bang bang she’s down now only Grandad left. Hes up now out of bed but as soon as he’s in the doorway from his bedroom bang bang he falls and the killer goes downstairs (maybe for more ammo who knows).
Grandad comes round and drags himself downstairs valliently tries to take the weapon but no bang bang he’s down again reload some more we need to finish him of keep unloading in him as he pleads for his life. Bang bang bang bang 11 in him he’s dead after those head shots.
Now it’s the suicide time have both triggers pulled ready to go so you pull down hard bang bang dead.
DickyC said:
The thing with the silencer was she couldn't have shot herself with the silencer in place. As no one woke up during the shooting the assumption was the murderer shot everyone using the silencer then removed it. There was no reason for her to have done that if she was the murderer. Take it off, yes. Take it off and put in a cupboard downstairs, no.
The American ‘experts’ who support Jeremy have given evidence and case studies where this is perfectly natural behaviour in these circumstances. Apparently it’s quite common and in these circumstances people often do strange ‘rituals’ like this.Now, I think it’s highly unlikely she did do this.
But I don’t think we can say it’s highly unusual if she did put it back in the cupboard.
Quarterly said:
From what I've read the evidence against JB was very thin at best and wouldn't stand up in court by today's standards. Just one example, the 'sound monitor' (silencer) had a spot of shelia's blood on it, its later been proved that it's not and could have come from an animal.
What really convinced the jury was the testimony from JBs recently jilted girlfriend. It was her word against his. She was an unreliable witness imo because firstly she had a history of petty crime including claiming her cheque book had been stolen while cashing cheques.. Secondly as you saw at the end of the film she had a deal with the News of the World to sell her story for 25k. Question is, did she get that deal before she gave evidence? What do you think? If she had then her evidence should have been ruled inadmissible due to her profiting from her story. Without her 'evidence ' JB would almost certainly have been acquitted.
I think he's probably guilty, but I'm amazed at the lack of evidence.
The prosecution's case was not, as it suggested in the series, just his word against that of his ex. There would never be a prosecution based solely on that. There's much online with regards the appeals. There was little forensic evidence it is true, but that hardly negates a prosecution. What really convinced the jury was the testimony from JBs recently jilted girlfriend. It was her word against his. She was an unreliable witness imo because firstly she had a history of petty crime including claiming her cheque book had been stolen while cashing cheques.. Secondly as you saw at the end of the film she had a deal with the News of the World to sell her story for 25k. Question is, did she get that deal before she gave evidence? What do you think? If she had then her evidence should have been ruled inadmissible due to her profiting from her story. Without her 'evidence ' JB would almost certainly have been acquitted.
I think he's probably guilty, but I'm amazed at the lack of evidence.
One significant part of the prosecution was inconsistencies in Bamber's stories.
The police handling of the scene was, quite rightly, criticised post trial by the judge, and others, but that does not negate a prosecution.
Welshbeef said:
Maybe no silencer was used at all.
Imagine 3am sound asleep.
Bang bang 2 kids killed.
Grandma and Grandad wake up puzzled think WTF did they hear a gun or something falling and crashing on the floor so Grandma goes out the bedroom to check - bang bang she’s down now only Grandad left. Hes up now out of bed but as soon as he’s in the doorway from his bedroom bang bang he falls and the killer goes downstairs (maybe for more ammo who knows).
Grandad comes round and drags himself downstairs valliently tries to take the weapon but no bang bang he’s down again reload some more we need to finish him of keep unloading in him as he pleads for his life. Bang bang bang bang 11 in him he’s dead after those head shots.
Now it’s the suicide time have both triggers pulled ready to go so you pull down hard bang bang dead.
But the fact is it wasn't just "bang bang 2 kids dead" it was nearly a full magazine into the pair of them and didn't the evidence show that all the shots into each person, bar Neville, get fired into them one after an other?Imagine 3am sound asleep.
Bang bang 2 kids killed.
Grandma and Grandad wake up puzzled think WTF did they hear a gun or something falling and crashing on the floor so Grandma goes out the bedroom to check - bang bang she’s down now only Grandad left. Hes up now out of bed but as soon as he’s in the doorway from his bedroom bang bang he falls and the killer goes downstairs (maybe for more ammo who knows).
Grandad comes round and drags himself downstairs valliently tries to take the weapon but no bang bang he’s down again reload some more we need to finish him of keep unloading in him as he pleads for his life. Bang bang bang bang 11 in him he’s dead after those head shots.
Now it’s the suicide time have both triggers pulled ready to go so you pull down hard bang bang dead.
Cfnteabag said:
But the fact is it wasn't just "bang bang 2 kids dead" it was nearly a full magazine into the pair of them and didn't the evidence show that all the shots into each person, bar Neville, get fired into them one after an other?
But if it was a full magazine even with a silencer surely it would cause the boys to wake? Unless the first shot was the kill head shot - otherwise surely one injured would have extremely vocal in pain at least waking the other at the very least yet both are in pictures in perfect silent position in bed. How do we know all the shots fired into them were done at the same time vs out of order/going back round to ensure all are dead loading them up with a few more bang bangs.
Welshbeef said:
Cfnteabag said:
But the fact is it wasn't just "bang bang 2 kids dead" it was nearly a full magazine into the pair of them and didn't the evidence show that all the shots into each person, bar Neville, get fired into them one after an other?
But if it was a full magazine even with a silencer surely it would cause the boys to wake? Unless the first shot was the kill head shot - otherwise surely one injured would have extremely vocal in pain at least waking the other at the very least yet both are in pictures in perfect silent position in bed. How do we know all the shots fired into them were done at the same time vs out of order/going back round to ensure all are dead loading them up with a few more bang bangs.
I know is nearly 40 years ago so I’m guessing not.
Welshbeef, have you read up about this at all? Or even watched the dramatisation on TV?
None of your questions or points of view are based on any of the known facts.
Both the boys were killed instantly by head shots. I think a total of six were fired into them both. Perhaps that left four in the magazine for Neville, then Jeremy went downstairs to reload, or perhaps Neville did while Jeremy despatched his mother and sister with two shots each. Then went downstairs and finished off his father.
None of your questions or points of view are based on any of the known facts.
Both the boys were killed instantly by head shots. I think a total of six were fired into them both. Perhaps that left four in the magazine for Neville, then Jeremy went downstairs to reload, or perhaps Neville did while Jeremy despatched his mother and sister with two shots each. Then went downstairs and finished off his father.
Welshbeef said:
Maybe no silencer was used at all.
Imagine 3am sound asleep.
Bang bang 2 kids killed.
Grandma and Grandad wake up puzzled think WTF did they hear a gun or something falling and crashing on the floor so Grandma goes out the bedroom to check - bang bang she’s down now only Grandad left. Hes up now out of bed but as soon as he’s in the doorway from his bedroom bang bang he falls and the killer goes downstairs (maybe for more ammo who knows).
Grandad comes round and drags himself downstairs valliently tries to take the weapon but no bang bang he’s down again reload some more we need to finish him of keep unloading in him as he pleads for his life. Bang bang bang bang 11 in him he’s dead after those head shots.
Now it’s the suicide time have both triggers pulled ready to go so you pull down hard bang bang dead.
It wasn't a double barrelled shot-gun...it was a rifle = one trigger.Imagine 3am sound asleep.
Bang bang 2 kids killed.
Grandma and Grandad wake up puzzled think WTF did they hear a gun or something falling and crashing on the floor so Grandma goes out the bedroom to check - bang bang she’s down now only Grandad left. Hes up now out of bed but as soon as he’s in the doorway from his bedroom bang bang he falls and the killer goes downstairs (maybe for more ammo who knows).
Grandad comes round and drags himself downstairs valliently tries to take the weapon but no bang bang he’s down again reload some more we need to finish him of keep unloading in him as he pleads for his life. Bang bang bang bang 11 in him he’s dead after those head shots.
Now it’s the suicide time have both triggers pulled ready to go so you pull down hard bang bang dead.
The chin shot would have been the last shot into Shiela, after the first in-capacitated her. Plus, as has been said, guns are really f'ing noisey, the first shot would have had everyone up straight away.
Have you ever shot a rifle (or any kind of fire-arm)?
This form has a huge amount of information about the murders if you want to read more.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=6.0
Interestingly enough, it's a site dedicated to miscarriages of justice and pretty much every poster concludes that Jeremy did it.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=6.0
Interestingly enough, it's a site dedicated to miscarriages of justice and pretty much every poster concludes that Jeremy did it.
dieselgrunt said:
This form has a huge amount of information about the murders if you want to read more.
http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=6.0
Interestingly enough, it's a site dedicated to miscarriages of justice and pretty much every poster concludes that Jeremy did it.
Thanks for the link, will have a read.http://miscarriageofjustice.co/index.php?board=6.0
Interestingly enough, it's a site dedicated to miscarriages of justice and pretty much every poster concludes that Jeremy did it.
Erm WARNING the first link on the website is extremely graphic.
Wasn’t expecting the first link to load up a photo of the mothers dead head.
Edited by Flumpo on Wednesday 19th February 16:28
Tyre Smoke said:
Welshbeef, have you read up about this at all? Or even watched the dramatisation on TV?
None of your questions or points of view are based on any of the known facts.
Both the boys were killed instantly by head shots. I think a total of six were fired into them both. Perhaps that left four in the magazine for Neville, then Jeremy went downstairs to reload, or perhaps Neville did while Jeremy despatched his mother and sister with two shots each. Then went downstairs and finished off his father.
I did watch it yes and seen the documentary a few years ago putting ? About the evidence from his side. None of your questions or points of view are based on any of the known facts.
Both the boys were killed instantly by head shots. I think a total of six were fired into them both. Perhaps that left four in the magazine for Neville, then Jeremy went downstairs to reload, or perhaps Neville did while Jeremy despatched his mother and sister with two shots each. Then went downstairs and finished off his father.
A poster stated a whole magazine was unloaded into the boys. Also it’s impossible to give 2x instant headshots in two different locations one would have woken.
The facts are no one knows the killing sequence only a guess. Boys could have been last or first or in between.
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