Discussion
fblm said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
Murph7355 said:
For exactly the reasons you note, governments could and likely will either ban or heavily restrict/regulate use.
They can certainly give it a go and I can see why they might. Cryptos have the ability to massively undermine Nation States and their central banks. But like copyright laws, they will find in practice it to be very difficult to enforce.
I can already buy my lunch 2 minutes walk from my office in London with Bitcoin and other retailers including housing developers recently coming on board. Haven't found the local heroin and sex slaves yet but the sooner the government find a way to sensibly tax them, then the sooner everyone can be happy.
Edited by Trolleys Thank You on Thursday 14th September 17:05
Obviously it would be largely impossible for the government to eradicate them entirely. Legislation to make the exchange with fiat currency illegal would crater the value though and that would essentially achieve the same thing. The vast majority of bitcoins are never used as a currency to exchange for goods and services. They're a speculation vehicle. I can't see that changing any time soon - what's the motivation? There are plenty of hassle free ways to pay for stuff already. There aren't enough people who care about currency without banks or seamless transfer of cash over borders.
hairykrishna said:
Obviously it would be largely impossible for the government to eradicate them entirely. Legislation to make the exchange with fiat currency illegal would crater the value though and that would essentially achieve the same thing. The vast majority of bitcoins are never used as a currency to exchange for goods and services. They're a speculation vehicle. I can't see that changing any time soon - what's the motivation? There are plenty of hassle free ways to pay for stuff already. There aren't enough people who care about currency without banks or seamless transfer of cash over borders.
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
Mark Benson said:
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.
However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
It needs to be accepted payment for mainstream goods.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
What would Google do with their bitcoin revenues? Pay staff with it? What would the staff then pay for with their bitcoin wages? What do they use to buy their Tesco Value sausages on pay day?
Facebook could do what they want, but the people paying them in groats would still need to change current currencies into groats. And that's where govt gets involved.
I cannot see any advantage at all for a currency controlling govt to want crypto currencies on "open" terms.
The tech behind it is possibly interesting, but not really anything new. Beyond that, it looks like the classic solution looking for a problem, or at best a solution that stands no chance of solving the alleged problems that have been identified.
Mark Benson said:
hairykrishna said:
Obviously it would be largely impossible for the government to eradicate them entirely. Legislation to make the exchange with fiat currency illegal would crater the value though and that would essentially achieve the same thing. The vast majority of bitcoins are never used as a currency to exchange for goods and services. They're a speculation vehicle. I can't see that changing any time soon - what's the motivation? There are plenty of hassle free ways to pay for stuff already. There aren't enough people who care about currency without banks or seamless transfer of cash over borders.
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
Murph7355 said:
Mark Benson said:
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.
However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
It needs to be accepted payment for mainstream goods.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
What would Google do with their bitcoin revenues? Pay staff with it? What would the staff then pay for with their bitcoin wages? What do they use to buy their Tesco Value sausages on pay day?
Facebook could do what they want, but the people paying them in groats would still need to change current currencies into groats. And that's where govt gets involved.
I cannot see any advantage at all for a currency controlling govt to want crypto currencies on "open" terms.
The tech behind it is possibly interesting, but not really anything new. Beyond that, it looks like the classic solution looking for a problem, or at best a solution that stands no chance of solving the alleged problems that have been identified.
My take is more that it's a solution to a problem only very few people have, applicable to ever fewer, applied badly. It doubtless also appeals to a certain anti-establishment type who loves the idea of a currency not controlled by 'the man'.
Mark Benson said:
Murph7355 said:
Mark Benson said:
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.
However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
It needs to be accepted payment for mainstream goods.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
What would Google do with their bitcoin revenues? Pay staff with it? What would the staff then pay for with their bitcoin wages? What do they use to buy their Tesco Value sausages on pay day?
Facebook could do what they want, but the people paying them in groats would still need to change current currencies into groats. And that's where govt gets involved.
I cannot see any advantage at all for a currency controlling govt to want crypto currencies on "open" terms.
The tech behind it is possibly interesting, but not really anything new. Beyond that, it looks like the classic solution looking for a problem, or at best a solution that stands no chance of solving the alleged problems that have been identified.
My take is more that it's a solution to a problem only very few people have, applicable to ever fewer, applied badly. It doubtless also appeals to a certain anti-establishment type who loves the idea of a currency not controlled by 'the man'.
We've barely scratched the surface of applications of blockchain technologies such as Bitcoin. If you can't see the value of a single payment network, which can send currency anywhere on earth in milliseconds, with minimal fees and without the need for any bank or institution inbetween then I'm not sure you'll get it.
Being able to stream money in this way fundamentally changes the way we think about and behave with money. Andreas explains this far better than I can from this point in the video.
https://youtu.be/gF_ZQ_eijPs?t=17m7s
Trolleys Thank You said:
Mark Benson said:
Murph7355 said:
Mark Benson said:
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.
However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
It needs to be accepted payment for mainstream goods.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
What would Google do with their bitcoin revenues? Pay staff with it? What would the staff then pay for with their bitcoin wages? What do they use to buy their Tesco Value sausages on pay day?
Facebook could do what they want, but the people paying them in groats would still need to change current currencies into groats. And that's where govt gets involved.
I cannot see any advantage at all for a currency controlling govt to want crypto currencies on "open" terms.
The tech behind it is possibly interesting, but not really anything new. Beyond that, it looks like the classic solution looking for a problem, or at best a solution that stands no chance of solving the alleged problems that have been identified.
My take is more that it's a solution to a problem only very few people have, applicable to ever fewer, applied badly. It doubtless also appeals to a certain anti-establishment type who loves the idea of a currency not controlled by 'the man'.
We've barely scratched the surface of applications of blockchain technologies such as Bitcoin. If you can't see the value of a single payment network, which can send currency anywhere on earth in milliseconds, with minimal fees and without the need for any bank or institution inbetween then I'm not sure you'll get it.
Being able to stream money in this way fundamentally changes the way we think about and behave with money. Andreas explains this far better than I can from this point in the video.
https://youtu.be/gF_ZQ_eijPs?t=17m7s
The discussion is about Bitcoin itself, not blockchain technology which is already being exploited commercially.
Mark Benson said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
Mark Benson said:
Murph7355 said:
Mark Benson said:
For Bitcoin to become mainstream and anything more serious than a vehicle for speculation and a way for geeks, gamers and crooks to pay one another it needs a 'killer app'. Something that makes paying with Bitcoins much more desirable than paying with hard currency or something that a lot of people desire that can only be bought with Bitcoin. Imagine if Facebook announced they would only accept Bitcoin for advertising access or Google only sold information priced in Bitcoin.
However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
It needs to be accepted payment for mainstream goods.However I suspect if that app or situation ever evolved and Bitcoin looked like moving into the mainstream, national governments and central banks would have the option of adapting, adopting or killing and I suspect they'd choose the latter.
What would Google do with their bitcoin revenues? Pay staff with it? What would the staff then pay for with their bitcoin wages? What do they use to buy their Tesco Value sausages on pay day?
Facebook could do what they want, but the people paying them in groats would still need to change current currencies into groats. And that's where govt gets involved.
I cannot see any advantage at all for a currency controlling govt to want crypto currencies on "open" terms.
The tech behind it is possibly interesting, but not really anything new. Beyond that, it looks like the classic solution looking for a problem, or at best a solution that stands no chance of solving the alleged problems that have been identified.
My take is more that it's a solution to a problem only very few people have, applicable to ever fewer, applied badly. It doubtless also appeals to a certain anti-establishment type who loves the idea of a currency not controlled by 'the man'.
We've barely scratched the surface of applications of blockchain technologies such as Bitcoin. If you can't see the value of a single payment network, which can send currency anywhere on earth in milliseconds, with minimal fees and without the need for any bank or institution inbetween then I'm not sure you'll get it.
Being able to stream money in this way fundamentally changes the way we think about and behave with money. Andreas explains this far better than I can from this point in the video.
https://youtu.be/gF_ZQ_eijPs?t=17m7s
The discussion is about Bitcoin itself, not blockchain technology which is already being exploited commercially.
Trolleys Thank You said:
If you can't see the value of a single payment network, which can send currency anywhere on earth in milliseconds, with minimal fees and without the need for any bank or institution inbetween then I'm not sure you'll get it.
I see the value in that to some people sure. OK so individual currencies are marginalised and some crypto currency has taken over as the default store of wealth and means of exchange... now somewhere inevitably enters recession; what levers are government left with to prevent the job/confidence/sales/production circle spiraling the economy into depression?fblm said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
If you can't see the value of a single payment network, which can send currency anywhere on earth in milliseconds, with minimal fees and without the need for any bank or institution inbetween then I'm not sure you'll get it.
I see the value in that to some people sure. OK so individual currencies are marginalised and some crypto currency has taken over as the default store of wealth and means of exchange... now somewhere inevitably enters recession; what levers are government left with to prevent the job/confidence/sales/production circle spiraling the economy into depression?When you look at nations like Venezuela today where inflation is wildly out of control, the last thing you want is the government continuing to interfere with the economy. Bitcoin has allowed Venezuela's citizens to literally survive by using a relatively stable, global asset to buy goods from across the world. Bitcoin, unlike fiat, will eventually become deflationary in nature since there will only ever be 21 million coins generated. So, in times of economic turmoil it doubles up as a safe haven asset. Like gold, but without the ridiculous costs associated with owning gold. Other crypto assets have auto inflationary algorithms built into them, so more coins are generated if certain limits are met. At the end of the day, it's just software owned by no one in particular and controlled by its users and miners. A million heads are better than one, no?
Trolleys Thank You said:
Short answer, they won't. Governments lose that power and some would argue for very good reason. Bitcoin was built and adopted by crypto-anarchists and cypherpunks as a reaction against corrupt governments and financial institutions in the wake of the great recession.
When you look at nations like Venezuela today where inflation is wildly out of control, the last thing you want is the government continuing to interfere with the economy. Bitcoin has allowed Venezuela's citizens to literally survive by using a relatively stable, global asset to buy goods from across the world. Bitcoin, unlike fiat, will eventually become deflationary in nature since there will only ever be 21 million coins generated. So, in times of economic turmoil it doubles up as a safe haven asset. Like gold, but without the ridiculous costs associated with owning gold. Other crypto assets have auto inflationary algorithms built into them, so more coins are generated if certain limits are met. At the end of the day, it's just software owned by no one in particular and controlled by its users and miners. A million heads are better than one, no?
What's the typical demographic of your Venezuelan using bitcoin?When you look at nations like Venezuela today where inflation is wildly out of control, the last thing you want is the government continuing to interfere with the economy. Bitcoin has allowed Venezuela's citizens to literally survive by using a relatively stable, global asset to buy goods from across the world. Bitcoin, unlike fiat, will eventually become deflationary in nature since there will only ever be 21 million coins generated. So, in times of economic turmoil it doubles up as a safe haven asset. Like gold, but without the ridiculous costs associated with owning gold. Other crypto assets have auto inflationary algorithms built into them, so more coins are generated if certain limits are met. At the end of the day, it's just software owned by no one in particular and controlled by its users and miners. A million heads are better than one, no?
And what is to stop your crypto-anarchists becoming the next Hugo Chavez themselves?
21m bitcoins. How does your typical Venezuelan get one? How many other crypto-currencies out there?
James_B said:
Crypto anarchists?
This is like a sixth form debate at times.
Bit coin is still a sideshow for geeks, and a tool for criminals. People have been declaring for a very long time now that a huge takeoff is just around the corner, and that us squares will see just how wrong we were. It's still never happened.
It's as naive as the lefties who keep telling us that we'll be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
The fact is that people are still getting paid millions of pounds a year for their expertise in the real financial markets, for good reason, while bitcoin is still mainly just an irrelevance for anything other than a few people in their bedrooms.
I'll not bother saying any more on the subject, but will check in to have another laugh if you are still spouting the same rubbish in a year's time.
"People have been declaring for a very long time now that a huge takeoff is just around the corner, and that us squares will see just how wrong we were. It's still never happened."This is like a sixth form debate at times.
Bit coin is still a sideshow for geeks, and a tool for criminals. People have been declaring for a very long time now that a huge takeoff is just around the corner, and that us squares will see just how wrong we were. It's still never happened.
It's as naive as the lefties who keep telling us that we'll be first up against the wall when the revolution comes.
The fact is that people are still getting paid millions of pounds a year for their expertise in the real financial markets, for good reason, while bitcoin is still mainly just an irrelevance for anything other than a few people in their bedrooms.
I'll not bother saying any more on the subject, but will check in to have another laugh if you are still spouting the same rubbish in a year's time.
If a 700% appreciation in value in less than a year is not a "huge take off" then I'd love to know what is.
You can mock the founders philosophies all you want but the fact remains this is a very disruptive technology with the benefits of avoiding banking or governmental manipulation. No more fractional reserve banking, no QE, no bailouts and no asset seizures of anyone including wikileaks founders. All the stuff the "occupy" protestors were shouting about less than a decade ago. It's still incredibly young but I have little doubt it is going to change the world.
Yes, the value has massively increased. Has the amount of people using them to actually buy normal stuff increased? Dark net markets have expanded. But are many people using them to buy stuff other than drugs and stolen credit cards? It looks like they aren't to me. Plenty of people have grabbed a bit of publicity by saying they now take bitcoin, but that's not the same thing.
Trolleys Thank You said:
"People have been declaring for a very long time now that a huge takeoff is just around the corner, and that us squares will see just how wrong we were. It's still never happened."
If a 700% appreciation in value in less than a year is not a "huge take off" then I'd love to know what is.
You can mock the founders philosophies all you want but the fact remains this is a very disruptive technology with the benefits of avoiding banking or governmental manipulation. No more fractional reserve banking, no QE, no bailouts and no asset seizures of anyone including wikileaks founders. All the stuff the "occupy" protestors were shouting about less than a decade ago. It's still incredibly young but I have little doubt it is going to change the world.
Tulips. Classic cars. Dotcom.If a 700% appreciation in value in less than a year is not a "huge take off" then I'd love to know what is.
You can mock the founders philosophies all you want but the fact remains this is a very disruptive technology with the benefits of avoiding banking or governmental manipulation. No more fractional reserve banking, no QE, no bailouts and no asset seizures of anyone including wikileaks founders. All the stuff the "occupy" protestors were shouting about less than a decade ago. It's still incredibly young but I have little doubt it is going to change the world.
Keep dreaming if you think govt manipulation is on its way out. And ask yourself how roads and hospitals will be funded, how we keep paying benefit cheques etc while you're at it
Murph7355 said:
What's the typical demographic of your Venezuelan using bitcoin?
And what is to stop your crypto-anarchists becoming the next Hugo Chavez themselves?
21m bitcoins. How does your typical Venezuelan get one? How many other crypto-currencies out there?
Demographic? I don't know but would hazard a guess at predominantly young and male as is generally the case across the world.And what is to stop your crypto-anarchists becoming the next Hugo Chavez themselves?
21m bitcoins. How does your typical Venezuelan get one? How many other crypto-currencies out there?
Venezuelans typically mine them using the country's practically free electricity supply or can use certain OTC services such as LocalBitcoins to buy coins directly.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-06-15...
James_B said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
ll the stuff the "occupy" protestors were shouting about less than a decade ago. It's still incredibly young but I have little doubt it is going to change the world.
Christ, this is hard work. Do you manage to hold down an actual job?The occupy protestors, the ones that said they were going to change the world, they were proven to be utterly wrong a long time ago, and have long since pissed off home to mummy and daddy's nice house shortly afterwards.
How can you draw a parallel with them and think that it says something positive?
You're like a junior doctor boasting that you'll do as well as Harold Shipman.
A lot of what they were calling for is beginning to be lived out in Bitcoin. Because you clearly don't like that fact doesn't mean it isn't happening. I suggest you stick to your original promise to stop commenting on the subject.
Edited by Trolleys Thank You on Sunday 17th September 00:49
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