Bitcoins?

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Discussion

Trolleys Thank You

872 posts

80 months

Friday 19th January 2018
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Some Gump said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
I thought they might first time but nope, order food, scan their QR code on your phone and walk away. Simple. No faffing about with change while holding your food and wallet and a queue of people waiting behind you.

Fees will again become negligible in time.
Which is a total step change compared to contactless credit cards, Apple pay etc. This thing is going to explode.
Lol. If you say so. Those vendors love paying those Visa fees I'm sure. laugh

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Friday 19th January 2018
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Trolleys Thank You said:
Lol. If you say so. Those vendors love paying those Visa fees I'm sure. laugh
I'm sure they don't. However, it's not up to them, is it? As of this month, credit card surcharges are illegal. Given that the sale price will then be the same in btc or gbp, I'll use the secure, simple big of plastic and pay at the end of th Month rather than the elaborate, risky fanny on that is crypto.

If they refuse to take credit cards, they'll probably go out of business. If I really want to deal with them that desperately, i'll use cash - they'll accept that for sure because of that old "legal tender" loophole.

catso

14,771 posts

266 months

Friday 19th January 2018
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Trolleys Thank You said:
Nope. For those of us who got in early enough, it's a free lunch. wink
Or even a free house...

anonymous-user

53 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
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Trolleys Thank You said:
fblm said:
I can see how buying lunch with crypto currency is so much more convenient and cheaper than using cash. Oh no wait it's just a stupid gimmick.
Nope. For those of us who got in early enough, it's a free lunch. wink
That's great for you but why does that lead to widespread demand from the 'late adopters'?

Murph7355

37,651 posts

255 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
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Gecko1978 said:
the example above of buying lunch on the market shows there is potential. not certain of course but a payment free from goverment control does open up lots of possibilities. End of day may thought dot com bubble was just that....years later its a regular part of the everyday.
Let's see how long that lasts wink

Trolleys Thank You said:
Nope. For those of us who got in early enough, it's a free lunch. wink
Isn't it going up 4,096% a day? Expensive sandwiches now even if you go in early.

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Trolleys Thank You said:
Some Gump said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
I thought they might first time but nope, order food, scan their QR code on your phone and walk away. Simple. No faffing about with change while holding your food and wallet and a queue of people waiting behind you.

Fees will again become negligible in time.
Which is a total step change compared to contactless credit cards, Apple pay etc. This thing is going to explode.
Lol. If you say so. Those vendors love paying those Visa fees I'm sure. laugh
If vendors want to avoid visa fees they can insist on cash. They don't because the customer wants convenience.

No costumer is going to switch to crypto to save the seller a couple of % in fees.

I want to pay in the currency I get paid in. I don't want to be paid in crypo and hope that it's not halved in value by the end of the month (or even exist). I don't want my wealth in a "wallet" that can break, be lost, or be unrecoverable if I forget my password.

Crypto may have some uses, but for the average person in the street they really won't want the hassle.

The majority of people investing in it have no clue what it is, or even care what it is. That we just hoping someone else will pay them more for it in a few weeks.

dimots

3,013 posts

89 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
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98elise said:
If vendors want to avoid visa fees they can insist on cash. They don't because the customer wants convenience.

No costumer is going to switch to crypto to save the seller a couple of % in fees.

I want to pay in the currency I get paid in. I don't want to be paid in crypo and hope that it's not halved in value by the end of the month (or even exist). I don't want my wealth in a "wallet" that can break, be lost, or be unrecoverable if I forget my password.

Crypto may have some uses, but for the average person in the street they really won't want the hassle.

The majority of people investing in it have no clue what it is, or even care what it is. That we just hoping someone else will pay them more for it in a few weeks.
I keep hearing the same comments 'nobody wants to use it', 'you just hope someone will pay more for it next week', etc...

But what if it rises in value and you find yourself bitcoin rich? Multiplied across the entire crypto ecosystem? Then bitcoin and crypto users wield immense purchasing power and start to dictate how retailers accept payments. You seem to be oblivious to the potential for change.

Trolleys Thank You

872 posts

80 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
dimots said:
98elise said:
If vendors want to avoid visa fees they can insist on cash. They don't because the customer wants convenience.

No costumer is going to switch to crypto to save the seller a couple of % in fees.

I want to pay in the currency I get paid in. I don't want to be paid in crypo and hope that it's not halved in value by the end of the month (or even exist). I don't want my wealth in a "wallet" that can break, be lost, or be unrecoverable if I forget my password.

Crypto may have some uses, but for the average person in the street they really won't want the hassle.

The majority of people investing in it have no clue what it is, or even care what it is. That we just hoping someone else will pay them more for it in a few weeks.
I keep hearing the same comments 'nobody wants to use it', 'you just hope someone will pay more for it next week', etc...

But what if it rises in value and you find yourself bitcoin rich? Multiplied across the entire crypto ecosystem? Then bitcoin and crypto users wield immense purchasing power and start to dictate how retailers accept payments. You seem to be oblivious to the potential for change.
Indeed and oblivious to how it will evolve. In the early 90s we heard the same old tripe with the Web. "Oh, the internet is only good for emails. But why pay a high monthly fee to an ISP when I can just send letters to people or phone them? It takes minutes to download a picture and the modem makes a horrendous noise when it connects. You will never be able to watch live TV with it. This is useless tech, looking for a problem to solve. The average person does not want this and it has little actual usage." etc etc

Taking Bitcoin and Cryptos as complete is extremely short sighted. It is very young tech. Apps will be made to make it easier to transact, volatility will subside, fees will vanish and payments will be instant.

Oakey

27,523 posts

215 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
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I think literally one person, Clifford Stoll, claimed the internet was a fad.

BlackLabel

13,251 posts

122 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Sounds like HMRC and tax experts are unsure whether gains from Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies are classed as gambling winnings and therefore tax free or genuine investment gains and therefore subject to GCT.

Telegraph said:
“However the taxman's anticipated windfall could be far less than expected thanks to a loophole which lets taxpayers class their investment in cryptocurrency as "gambling", winnings from which are tax-free.

An HMRC spokesman said: “We don’t normally tax betting and gambling because it is usually not classed as trading income. But there may be circumstances where factors such as the degree of skill and organisation would make the activity more likely to be taxable as trading income. Each case will depend on its own facts.”
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2018/01/20/revealed-tax-free-bitcoin-loophole-could-cost-treasury-millions/

r11co

6,244 posts

229 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Trolleys Thank You said:
Taking Bitcoin and Cryptos as complete is extremely short sighted. It is very young tech. Apps will be made to make it easier to transact, volatility will subside, fees will vanish and payments will be instant.
...and it's appeal will collapse (taking its USP with it in a self-fulfilling result).

The only people really making anything out of crypto currencies are those who have access to energy resources and use that energy to 'mine' them for less than what they could make selling the energy resources on the open market as the mined currency is (currently) worth a bit more than the energy used to mine it. Wouldn't take much for that model to shift and stop the whole process in its tracks, and ultimately it is an unsustainable model.

Edited by r11co on Saturday 20th January 17:24

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
dimots said:
98elise said:
If vendors want to avoid visa fees they can insist on cash. They don't because the customer wants convenience.

No costumer is going to switch to crypto to save the seller a couple of % in fees.

I want to pay in the currency I get paid in. I don't want to be paid in crypo and hope that it's not halved in value by the end of the month (or even exist). I don't want my wealth in a "wallet" that can break, be lost, or be unrecoverable if I forget my password.

Crypto may have some uses, but for the average person in the street they really won't want the hassle.

The majority of people investing in it have no clue what it is, or even care what it is. That we just hoping someone else will pay them more for it in a few weeks.
I keep hearing the same comments 'nobody wants to use it', 'you just hope someone will pay more for it next week', etc...

But what if it rises in value and you find yourself bitcoin rich? Multiplied across the entire crypto ecosystem? Then bitcoin and crypto users wield immense purchasing power and start to dictate how retailers accept payments. You seem to be oblivious to the potential for change.
The value is only coming from the next buyer. You can't dictate how retailers can accept payments any more than Elon Musk or Warren Buffet can.

I happy for change, but I don't see what another currency is doing for me that the current one doesn't.

It seems to have some serious drawbacks as well. What happens if I die and my life savings are tied up in crypto currencies? How do my family access that money.


Ari

19,328 posts

214 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Gecko1978 said:
End of day many thought dot com bubble was just that....years later its a regular part of the everyday.
Err, except it was indeed a bubble, it did actually burst didn't it? scratchchin

So the speculation part - that it was worth buying today because it was worth more than yesterday and would be worth still more tomorrow, proved flawed. The technology companies it was based on remained useful and had some value however, and still do.

Bitcoins mirrors the bubble part, but without actually being based anything useful or with value. So tulip bulbs is perhaps a better analogy. biggrin

Jonesy23

4,650 posts

135 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
BlackLabel said:
Sounds like HMRC and tax experts are unsure whether gains from Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies are classed as gambling winnings and therefore tax free or genuine investment gains and therefore subject to GCT.
I'm not sure that you'd have much luck claiming that buying and selling stuff in a volatile unregulated market counts as gambling.

HMRC are never going to accept that argument in a million years. They'd just laugh and start looking even harder at your returns.

98elise

26,376 posts

160 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Jonesy23 said:
BlackLabel said:
Sounds like HMRC and tax experts are unsure whether gains from Bitcoin and other crypto-currencies are classed as gambling winnings and therefore tax free or genuine investment gains and therefore subject to GCT.
I'm not sure that you'd have much luck claiming that buying and selling stuff in a volatile unregulated market counts as gambling.

HMRC are never going to accept that argument in a million years. They'd just laugh and start looking even harder at your returns.
Assuming it's treated like any other FX deal, would multiple buys and sells in crypto currencies cause a tax liability in this tax year?

Let's say someone makes a million in crypto through various trades this tax year, then it all goes horribly wrong next year and they lose that million. Would they still have the tax liability from this year?

If you had bought a single currency and held, then there would be no tax liability as it had only been a paper gain until the first sell.

That's how it would works for shares, but I've never traded FX.


r11co

6,244 posts

229 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
98elise said:
It seems to have some serious drawbacks as well. What happens if I die and my life savings are tied up in crypto currencies? How do my family access that money.
With extreme difficulty, if at all. A lot of the value in crypto-currencies comes from the fact that it isn't subject to the regulations and requirements of fiat currencies, but those regulations and requirements came about as a result of evolution of the needs surrounding those currencies.

Crypto is just unevolved. As it evolves it will become nothing special and therefor subject to the same vagaries as all the rest, if not irrelevant and swiftly valueless as it is more costly to maintain. It is indeed a bubble.

The comparison with technological fads is nonsense as the tech had an underlying value that was just overhyped. Crypto currencies are by their nature nebulous and the only thing that gives them value is that they are out-of-step and can be mis-used.

Some Gump

12,671 posts

185 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Trolleys Thank You said:
Apps will be made to make it easier to transact, volatility will subside, fees will vanish and payments will be instant.
Pound steriling is instant, easy to transact, and I never pay a fee to use it. That's today.

You bitcoin disciples keep referring to this instant, fee free utopia that's just round the corner. Why, if that is the case is it not here now? Currently, volume is low - so why are transactions so slow? Why are fees so high? When demand goes up how will the price fall and the speed increase?

The other rhetoric is this "no government" thing. I just don't get it. Look at the Euro. Greece was fked and badly needed to devalue in order to be a "cheap country" again. Of course with no control over their currency, they ended up knackered with huge unemployement. The Euro works for Germany but not Greece or Portugal. Why do you think a global currency (currently dominated by Asian demand and speculators) would be better for you, here in England?

The last thing I find totally comic is that this utopian currency that removes horrible people like governments is that it's better because it's government free. Thing is, you don't know that, at all. No-one knows who Satochi is / was. A company? A bloke? Someone from 4Chan? North Korea? Vladimir Putin's brother Chet? It could be the boffins at Bletchley Park for all you know.

40% of the entire currency belongs to just 1,000 wallets. All it would take to fully Zimbabwe your holdings would be for one of the big few to dump theirs, or for a single BTc to leave a known Satochi wallet. Overnight your bank account would be mullered.

TL;DR? There's damn good reasons to want a government backed legal tender despite the reality that they'll print more of the buggers to deflate national debt.


Trolleys Thank You

872 posts

80 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Some Gump said:
Trolleys Thank You said:
Apps will be made to make it easier to transact, volatility will subside, fees will vanish and payments will be instant.
Pound steriling is instant, easy to transact, and I never pay a fee to use it. That's today.

You bitcoin disciples keep referring to this instant, fee free utopia that's just round the corner. Why, if that is the case is it not here now? Currently, volume is low - so why are transactions so slow? Why are fees so high? When demand goes up how will the price fall and the speed increase?

The other rhetoric is this "no government" thing. I just don't get it. Look at the Euro. Greece was fked and badly needed to devalue in order to be a "cheap country" again. Of course with no control over their currency, they ended up knackered with huge unemployement. The Euro works for Germany but not Greece or Portugal. Why do you think a global currency (currently dominated by Asian demand and speculators) would be better for you, here in England?

The last thing I find totally comic is that this utopian currency that removes horrible people like governments is that it's better because it's government free. Thing is, you don't know that, at all. No-one knows who Satochi is / was. A company? A bloke? Someone from 4Chan? North Korea? Vladimir Putin's brother Chet? It could be the boffins at Bletchley Park for all you know.

40% of the entire currency belongs to just 1,000 wallets. All it would take to fully Zimbabwe your holdings would be for one of the big few to dump theirs, or for a single BTc to leave a known Satochi wallet. Overnight your bank account would be mullered.

TL;DR? There's damn good reasons to want a government backed legal tender despite the reality that they'll print more of the buggers to deflate national debt.
There's so much misinformation in this post I don't know where to begin.

Looking at wallets to see who owns what is a pointless task. Many of them are exchange wallets each containing hundreds of thousands of people's coins. Linking one wallet to one person simply does not work.

Pound Sterling isn't always "instant, easy to transact, and never pay a fee". Paypal, international payments, Western Union etc?

Fees are high because there is high demand for block space. Lightning network does not use the blockchain hence no fees, instant, anonymous payments. It's here, it's growing.

Does it matter who "Satochi" [sp] is? He/she/it/they have created something himself nor anyone else can control? Rules without rulers.

Gecko1978

9,603 posts

156 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Murph7355 said:
Gecko1978 said:
the example above of buying lunch on the market shows there is potential. not certain of course but a payment free from goverment control does open up lots of possibilities. End of day may thought dot com bubble was just that....years later its a regular part of the everyday.
Let's see how long that lasts wink

Trolleys Thank You said:
Nope. For those of us who got in early enough, it's a free lunch. wink
Isn't it going up 4,096% a day? Expensive sandwiches now even if you go in early.
If you can tell me how the goverment are able to see what btc I have on an off line wallet I would be interested to know.

Also unlike btc not all coins leave a trail monero for example. like i said good old fashioned greed wins the day people dont like giving the goverment their cash when they can use it to better there own lives.



Gecko1978

9,603 posts

156 months

Saturday 20th January 2018
quotequote all
Ari said:
Gecko1978 said:
End of day many thought dot com bubble was just that....years later its a regular part of the everyday.
Err, except it was indeed a bubble, it did actually burst didn't it? scratchchin

So the speculation part - that it was worth buying today because it was worth more than yesterday and would be worth still more tomorrow, proved flawed. The technology companies it was based on remained useful and had some value however, and still do.

Bitcoins mirrors the bubble part, but without actually being based anything useful or with value. So tulip bulbs is perhaps a better analogy. biggrin
Amazon pre bubble ipo $7 bubble around $160 today $1200....see the point its early days no one knows where it will go but it offers some interesting ideas and these ideas like internet companies will only develope an advance you can not put the geni back in the bottle.

we could make it illegal in the uk like say porn or drugs....people just ignore it