Scottish Referendum / Independence

[eharding]

jshell said:

eharding said:

MX7 said:

jshell said:

Most Scots don't really want independance.

Exactly. If there's a referendum, most will say No, so none of it matters anyway.

...except that having a referendum, and the independence movement being roundly trounced - not that I'm saying it would be - would be a body blow to the SNP. Ask how the Lib Dems feel about having electoral reform at Westminster kicked off the agenda for the foreseeable future by a referendum.

See, I don't think it would be a body blow. Salmond knows it'd be voted down but then he can say: 'Well, we did promise a vote. You voted and we'll listen to that decision.' That way he gets a lot of kudos for being a man of his word, and at least he'll be remembered for actually giving us a vote. Unlike we got with Bliar on Europe and unlike CMD will ever give us on Europe either.

Just imho..

Salmond will doubtless put a shine on any possible outcome - but for the broader party a resounding 'No' vote would put the spotlight on the die-hard separatists vs. the more pragmatic wing - and probably promote a fundamental schism in the membership.

Arguably, the same would happen eventually if there was a resounding 'Yes' vote, and subsequent secession - the SNP is a broad church, held together by a general ideal. Once the Independence question is answered one way or the other, fracture of the party would be inevitable.

[jshell]

Guam said:

jshell said:

Cameron has fecked up here I think. His meddling is more likely to be seen as English interference in Scottish affairs, something that will backfore on him. He really does not want to break up the Union.

What meddling though?
Message to Scotland is simple Have your vote straight yes or no in or out.

I see nothing Meddlesome in that, there are two parties to any marriage, why should we have to accept Salmonds terms for staying in?

Personally speaking I am fed up with this, stay in and be like the rest of us, or exit if you dont like the current reality.

No special cases anymore, thats whats wrong with this country imho too much "Special pleading" BS


Cheers

It is meddling as it's not for him to determine the date. He's walking into a trap at worst, or just blundering about at best.

It's all bks anyway though, fed by opportunistic politicians and the media. Most Scots don't give it much thought at all, only the vocal minority. The English/Scottish thing is seen North of the border as a bit of sport except by that already mentioned minority. Problem is they are being listened to.

OTOH, if Salmond got powers of taxation, he could mega-drop corp tax and watch companies flood in... perhaps.

[jshell]

eharding said:

jshell said:

eharding said:

MX7 said:

jshell said:

Most Scots don't really want independance.

Exactly. If there's a referendum, most will say No, so none of it matters anyway.

...except that having a referendum, and the independence movement being roundly trounced - not that I'm saying it would be - would be a body blow to the SNP. Ask how the Lib Dems feel about having electoral reform at Westminster kicked off the agenda for the foreseeable future by a referendum.

See, I don't think it would be a body blow. Salmond knows it'd be voted down but then he can say: 'Well, we did promise a vote. You voted and we'll listen to that decision.' That way he gets a lot of kudos for being a man of his word, and at least he'll be remembered for actually giving us a vote. Unlike we got with Bliar on Europe and unlike CMD will ever give us on Europe either.

Just imho..

Salmond will doubtless put a shine on any possible outcome - but for the broader party a resounding 'No' vote would put the spotlight on the die-hard separatists vs. the more pragmatic wing - and probably promote a fundamental schism in the membership.

Arguably, the same would happen eventually if there was a resounding 'Yes' vote, and subsequent secession - the SNP is a broad church, held together by a general ideal. Once the Independence question is answered one way or the other, fracture of the party would be inevitable.

I agree with you!

[Blib]

Guam said:

Personally speaking I am fed up with this, stay in and be like the rest of us, or exit if you dont like the current reality.

I agree with this. I've spent half a century hearing about a desire for Scottish independence. Give them a vote and be done with it. Personally, I believe that a small country would be very vulnerable in today's economic climate. Especially with its natural home, Euroland, in utter disarray.

But, I know nothing about anything. So, I don't care either way.

[Caulkhead]

jshell said:

Guam said:

They cant seem to make their minds up though

Discussion on Radio 4 this morning was hilarious. Cameron wants to give them the option in about 18 months.

They are screaming foul it will be too soon? Well you wanted it you said now you dont want it in that timescale and you dont want a straight in or out question.

What Salmond really wants is complete Fiscal control, while still being in the pound how innovative, shame it hadnt been done before oh wait it has its called the Euro lol


No way Westminster will accept a fudge with a situation that could replicate the Euro within the UK.


Straight up and down yes or no vote is all thats required, so get the SNP to put up or shut up!

Lets get it done, wave them bye bye if thats what they want, or put this pathetic debate to bed once and for all! <all IMHO of course>

Cameron has fecked up here I think. His meddling is more likely to be seen as English interference in Scottish affairs, something that will backfore on him. He really does not want to break up the Union.

Cameron certainly doesn't want to preside over the break up of the union, but there's something even worse than that from his perspective. What he really doesn't want is to end up with Scotland getting everything they want from indpendence and us getting nothing. Imagine the political albatross that a largely independent Scotland that can still stick it's finger in the Westminster pie would be? An absolute non-starter.

He's quite right to insist on full independence or nothing, even though in reality real independence for Scotland is not on the menu, the actual choice being remain dependent on Westminster or become dependent on Brussels.

[Northern Munkee]

jshell said:

It is meddling as it's not for him to determine the date. He's walking into a trap at worst, or just blundering about at best.

It's all bks anyway though, fed by opportunistic politicians and the media. Most Scots don't give it much thought at all, only the vocal minority. The English/Scottish thing is seen North of the border as a bit of sport except by that already mentioned minority. Problem is they are being listened to.

OTOH, if Salmond got powers of taxation, he could mega-drop corp tax and watch companies flood in... perhaps.

Along with the return of Scottish banks debt mountain try that on (your economy) for size. Truth is Scottish independence is like wanting Father Christmas to be true. Lovely idea, but just think of the mess it would cause.

[jshell]

Guam said:

jshell said:

It is meddling as it's not for him to determine the date. He's walking into a trap at worst, or just blundering about at best.

It's all bks anyway though, fed by opportunistic politicians and the media. Most Scots don't give it much thought at all, only the vocal minority. The English/Scottish thing is seen North of the border as a bit of sport except by that already mentioned minority. Problem is they are being listened to.

OTOH, if Salmond got powers of taxation, he could mega-drop corp tax and watch companies flood in... perhaps.

Actually you are wrong on that as it is a revision to the Constitution of the UNITED KINGDOM Cameron is well within his rights to set the date. This goes back to exactly what I was inferring above. Right now like it or not Scotland is within the Union

As it stands on matters constitutional it is Westministers remit, there are numbers of Scottish MPS in Parliament for just these eventualities.

Cameron should press ahead and get this done, if people in Scotland think he has "meddled" <ludicrous concept>, they get their own back by taking their ball away and LEAVE!

Fairly simple really no?


Cheers

Surely it's for Salmond to set the date of the vote, then perhaps the date of any break-up is the constitutional issue? I really am not sure.

One thing is sure, I wouldn't vote for the breakup and most other Scots wouldn't either.

Non-issue for me in many ways, I went back expat last may due to the shyte that's going on in the UK.

[jshell]

Northern Munkee said:

jshell said:

It is meddling as it's not for him to determine the date. He's walking into a trap at worst, or just blundering about at best.

It's all bks anyway though, fed by opportunistic politicians and the media. Most Scots don't give it much thought at all, only the vocal minority. The English/Scottish thing is seen North of the border as a bit of sport except by that already mentioned minority. Problem is they are being listened to.

OTOH, if Salmond got powers of taxation, he could mega-drop corp tax and watch companies flood in... perhaps.

Along with the return of Scottish banks debt mountain try that on (your economy) for size. Truth is Scottish independence is like wanting Father Christmas to be true. Lovely idea, but just think of the mess it would cause.

It would be messy, as I said: I don't want it.

[Zaxxon]

jshell said:

It is meddling as it's not for him to determine the date. He's walking into a trap at worst, or just blundering about at best.

Meddling? Or setting rules? At the end of the day it should be up to the Enlish, Welsh and NI as to whether we want to offload Scotland. They are becoming a pain in the arse and like any whinging child if they think they are all grown up then set them free.

It will be a shame if it happens but the Scots need to put up or shut up. Setting a date is the UK's right, Salmand seems to think that the rest of the UK is begging them not to leave.

fkit cheerio, no border access till you have got a Scottish Passport. 1 mth max working visa.

Have a nice day.

[Caulkhead]

jshell said:

Surely it's for Salmond to set the date of the vote, then perhaps the date of any break-up is the constitutional issue? I really am not sure.

Why? This is an issue that affects the whole UK, not just Scotland so the decision must be made by the only parliament that covers the whole UK.

[0a]

It will be interesting to see how Salmond looks when he operates outside of the small Scottish pond, unfortunately I suspect we'll end up with the status quo (rather than Scotland looking after itself financially).

[Murcielago_Boy]

With an independent Scotland, won't we see the end of the Labour party as well?

[jshell]

Zaxxon said:

jshell said:

It is meddling as it's not for him to determine the date. He's walking into a trap at worst, or just blundering about at best.

Meddling? Or setting rules? At the end of the day it should be up to the Enlish, Welsh and NI as to whether we want to offload Scotland. They are becoming a pain in the arse and like any whinging child if they think they are all grown up then set them free.

It will be a shame if it happens but the Scots need to put up or shut up. Setting a date is the UK's right, Salmand seems to think that the rest of the UK is begging them not to leave.

fkit cheerio, no border access till you have got a Scottish Passport. 1 mth max working visa.

Have a nice day.

If any Westminster govt wanted us gone, we'd be gone. You have to wonder why... I do.

I believe it is not up to CMD to set a date for a vote that takes place in only Scotland. >shrug<

[Zaxxon]

Double post

Edited by Zaxxon on Monday 9th January 14:54

[Zaxxon]

jshell said:

If any Westminster govt wanted us gone, we'd be gone. You have to wonder why... I do.

I believe it is not up to CMD to set a date for a vote that takes place in only Scotland. >shrug<

Not as many peoplein Scotland and England want the Union broken up as Salmand thinks IMO. But only a vote would prove that. And as said by other posters it should not be a purely Scottish vote. It should be the UK.

It affects the UK not just Scotland.

Also, what will happen to the Scottish RM /RN /Army and RAF personel? What if they don't want to join an even smaller force that would only be a token effort?

Edited by Zaxxon on Monday 9th January 14:55

[jshell]

Zaxxon said:

jshell said:

If any Westminster govt wanted us gone, we'd be gone. You have to wonder why... I do.

I believe it is not up to CMD to set a date for a vote that takes place in only Scotland. >shrug<

Not as many people want the Union broken up as Salmand thinks IMO. But only a vote would prove that. And as said by other posters it should not be a purely Scottish vote. It should be the UK.

It affects the UK not just Scotland.

As I said above, I don't think he cares. He promised a vote late in his term. He wins either way as he'll be seen as a politician that finally gave people what he promised. He loses, he still kept his promise. He wins, he gets more powers. And the Scottish people will have their say. Which, I don't think most give a shyte about anyways....

[Johnnytheboy]

Blib said:

I agree with this. I've spent half a century hearing about a desire for Scottish independence. Give them a vote and be done with it. Personally, I believe that a small country would be very vulnerable in today's economic climate. Especially with its natural home, Euroland, in utter disarray.

But, I know nothing about anything. So, I don't care either way.

Any referendum should have a "shut up about it for twenty years afterwards" clause attached to it, whichever way it goes.

[rev-erend]

Murcielago_Boy said:

With an independent Scotland, won't we see the end of the Labour party as well?

Rather strangely .. the Tories need the SNP to take votes away from Labour.

[Johnnytheboy]

rev-erend said:

Murcielago_Boy said:

With an independent Scotland, won't we see the end of the Labour party as well?

Rather strangely .. the Tories need the SNP to take votes away from Labour.

Only in Scotland though

[bobbylondonuk]

CMD is playing it well IMO.

Alex Salmond won the election on the back of a referendum idea. He now wants to mess about so he can get the vote to reflect a EURO style set up. Good play.

As far as the UK is concerned..that is not a good idea for the rest of us. So CMD is calling him out. you scots want a referendum? why wait till the end of another 2 years? have it now!

We all know that a referendum now will be a NO to independance...and there ends the story for ever! SNP done.

The pretext to this plan is that 'businesses are discussing how to make their investments in scotland and the longer this takes the more detrimental it is to scots...so lets get it done with now.' Alex will have some serious thinking to do to counter that argument...even if it is all made up.

The ball is in SNP's court. Game on!