Supreme Court Upholds Obamacare

[unrepentant]

Caulkhead said:

The average healthcare bill for family with no employer cover in 2011 was $414 a month. An average UK family earning the equivalent pays about $4000 a year in NI contributions. Of course that pays for more than just the NHS but if more than one member of the family earns, they pay more.

Wherever you got that figure from I doubt it's veracity and I would look again..

Here's some figures closer to reality;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/16/us-health...

"Take away costs paid by employers, and the employee's share of costs has still doubled. In 2010, the average employee paid $8,008 for his family's healthcare, up from $3,634 in 2002".

And that's for those where the employer is paying the bulk of the premiums. No employer and you're on your own.

We have a pretty good scheme in our company. I asked a colleague who is in his early 30's, fit with a wife and two kids aged 3 and 6. He pays $7k per year, that's after the company picks up the lions share.

There are plenty of other examples;

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-27/health-be...

[Dixie68]

sirtyro said:

Doesn't give you the right or anybody the right to bring up what someone else believes in a negative way. It might not be as mainstream as other christian denominations, jewish or muslim religions but you could easily argue that what they believe is just as fked in the head if you choose not to believe in anything. Just think its a little ignorant to treat people like that.

Religion should be totally separated from state anyway, except in the US every candidate seems to crow about their respective beliefs. But if they do bring it up then it's as open to discussion, ridicule, support etc as anything else they say.

[Bingo1976]

unrepentant said:

It's interesting that the USA spends 17% of GDP on healthcare, no other country spends more than 12%. And yet the US ranks very low in terms of life expectancy and very poorly when infant mortality rates are taken into account.

Given the size and associated diet of the average American, it's hardly surprising. Cheese with everything, red meat, fries and TV meals.



(And that's just breakfast)

[sirtyro]

Dixie68 said:

sirtyro said:

Doesn't give you the right or anybody the right to bring up what someone else believes in a negative way. It might not be as mainstream as other christian denominations, jewish or muslim religions but you could easily argue that what they believe is just as fked in the head if you choose not to believe in anything. Just think its a little ignorant to treat people like that.

Dixie68 said:

Religion should be totally separated from state anyway,

Agreed

Dixie68 said:

except in the US every candidate seems to crow about their respective beliefs.

When has Mitt Romney ever crow'd on about mormonism? He never talks about it.

Dixie68 said:

But if they do bring it up then it's as open to discussion, ridicule, support etc as anything else they say.

Disagree. Respectful discussion. You never hear anyone 'ridicule' muslim or jewish holy robes or even christian robes yet its acceptable to say 'Mitt magic pants Romney'?!? Just pure ignorance.

[Einion Yrth]

sirtyro said:

Disagree. Respectful discussion. You never hear anyone 'ridicule' muslim or jewish holy robes or even christian robes yet its acceptable to say 'Mitt magic pants Romney'?!? Just pure ignorance.

You've not been here long, then. Around these parts ridiculing those with imaginary friends is pretty much de rigeur. Believing in a load of horse dung, of whatever flavour, does not demand respect, nor does it earn it, it's childish nonsense and deserves all the ridicule it can attract.

[Jasandjules]

Engineer1 said:

That and a religion that was made up recently

So it is only long standing imaginary friends that count?

[Caulkhead]

unrepentant said:

Caulkhead said:

The average healthcare bill for family with no employer cover in 2011 was $414 a month. An average UK family earning the equivalent pays about $4000 a year in NI contributions. Of course that pays for more than just the NHS but if more than one member of the family earns, they pay more.

Wherever you got that figure from I doubt it's veracity and I would look again..

Here's some figures closer to reality;

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/05/16/us-health...

"Take away costs paid by employers, and the employee's share of costs has still doubled. In 2010, the average employee paid $8,008 for his family's healthcare, up from $3,634 in 2002".

And that's for those where the employer is paying the bulk of the premiums. No employer and you're on your own.

We have a pretty good scheme in our company. I asked a colleague who is in his early 30's, fit with a wife and two kids aged 3 and 6. He pays $7k per year, that's after the company picks up the lions share.

There are plenty of other examples;

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-09-27/health-be...

http://finance.yahoo.com/news/How-Much-Does-Health...

Can I assume my other points stand as you only argued with the above one?

[stevejh]

I get the impression that a lot of people think that Obamacare is just a US version of the NHS. There seems to be a bit more to it than that and a lot more costs for the US as a whole and US taxpayers in particular which is why it's not as popular with the Right as it is with the Left which is one area where it is similar to the NHS.

[joe_90]

Jasandjules said:

Engineer1 said:

That and a religion that was made up recently

So it is only long standing imaginary friends that count?

Correct, don't fark with Zeus or Ra.

[obob]

joe_90 said:

Jasandjules said:

Engineer1 said:

That and a religion that was made up recently

So it is only long standing imaginary friends that count?

Correct, don't fark with Zeus or Ra.

Yeah but its funnier if it's made up more recently because South Park do episodes on how it was made up.

[Countdown]

Deva Link said:

martin84 said:

This whole saga does make me glad we have the NHS in this country though, it's easy to take things for granted.

Yet talk to American's who have experienced our NHS and they think it's like something from the 3rd world.

I tend to agree. The NHS just wants to patch you up to a minimum standard and then get rid of you. In the US they want to make you better, OK, only because the more time and effort they spend on you the more they can charge an isnurance company, but many, many people just get fobbed off by the NHS.

That shows you how much Americans know about the 3rd World.

When I worked in NHS Audit in the late 1990's there was a trend for pregnant US women to fly to London to give birth, because complications had been detected and their insurance wouldn't have covered them in the US.

Is it better to be able to invade 3rd World countries at will or provide decent healthcare for your own citizens?

[Countdown]

Blue Oval84 said:

For routine stuff I agree the NHS are pretty poor, but for emergency care I do think they rank amongst the best in the world.

So, in short, if you want to see a doctor quickly, step in front of a bus...

I don't think it is pretty poor tbh. I'm in the (theoretically) healthy "middle part of my life so have only used them to have my wisdom teeth removed. However the care my parents have received has been exemplary (one had heart complications, the other has had both knees replaced).

[Caulkhead]

Countdown said:

Is it better to be able to invade 3rd World countries at will or provide decent healthcare for your own citizens?

I lived in the US and I don't think the question is about providing decent healthcare, it's about the government forcing people to do it the government's way. Americans like the freedom to choose and many don't see why they should fund healthcare for other people.

I heard mixed views from Americans who had experienced the NHS and to be fair most were positive about the care but negative about the physical infrastructure which is probably a reasonable point of view.

[sirtyro]

obob said:

joe_90 said:

Jasandjules said:

Engineer1 said:

That and a religion that was made up recently

So it is only long standing imaginary friends that count?

Correct, don't fark with Zeus or Ra.

Yeah but its funnier if it's made up more recently because South Park do episodes on how it was made up.

You do realise that the creators of south park were raised mormon, and if you believe everything that southpark says then its the mormons that are right ;-) http://www.southparkstudios.com/clips/152270/aband...

[unrepentant]

Caulkhead said:

Americans like the freedom to choose and many don't see why they should fund healthcare for other people.

That's what's so dumb about the right and their spurious argument. The central plank (and the part that the right have the most issue with) of the affordable healthcare act is the individual mandate. The individual mandate requires everyone to take responsibility for their own healthcare insurance. Sounds pretty reasonable and should appeal to conservatives? Wrong.

Scenario: Someone chooses to be uncovered and never pay a premium, even though they can afford it. They have a serious heart attack / fall off a cliff and are badly injured / whatever. The bill is $250k / $500k / whatever. They can't pay. So they declare bankrupcy. Their bill is settled by everyone else.

Scenario: Someone has a serious health issue and cannot get insurance. They want to pay in to the system but the insurers will not cover them so they can't. They have a heart attack / stroke / whatever. The bill is $250k / $500k / whatever. They can't pay. So they declare bankrupcy. Their bill is settled by everyone else.

American's are funding other people. The affordable healthcare act makes it mandatory for the feckless to take care of their own insurance and makes it possible for those with pre existing conditions to buy their own insurance. Republicans hate it because it's a democrat policy implemented by Obama. FFS, Romney, their standard bearer, bought in an almost identical programme in Mass when he was govenor. Now he views it as satanic! It's laughable.

[Marf]

sirtyro said:

You do realise that the creators of south park were raised mormon

Matt Stone's parents were Jewish and he considers himself an Atheist.

Trey Parker was raised Christian I believe, but not mormon AFAIK.

From Wiki

On a September 2006 airing of the ABC news program Nightline, Parker articulated his position on religion. He stated that he believes there is knowledge that humanity may not yet possess, and cautioned that it would take a long time to explain exactly what he meant by his belief in God. Parker believes all religions are silly. He states that "All the religions are superfunny to me......The story of Jesus makes no sense to me. God sent his only son. Why could God only have one son and why would he have to die? It's just bad writing, really. And it's really terrible in about the second act."[27] Parker further remarked, "Basically ... out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah ... there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause ... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."[28]

Edited by Marf on Friday 29th June 13:28

[Caulkhead]

unrepentant said:

Caulkhead said:

Americans like the freedom to choose and many don't see why they should fund healthcare for other people.

That's what's so dumb about the right and their spurious argument. The central plank (and the part that the right have the most issue with) of the affordable healthcare act is the individual mandate. The individual mandate requires everyone to take responsibility for their own healthcare insurance. Sounds pretty reasonable and should appeal to conservatives? Wrong.

Scenario: Someone chooses to be uncovered and never pay a premium, even though they can afford it. They have a serious heart attack / fall off a cliff and are badly injured / whatever. The bill is $250k / $500k / whatever. They can't pay. So they declare bankrupcy. Their bill is settled by everyone else.

Scenario: Someone has a serious health issue and cannot get insurance. They want to pay in to the system but the insurers will not cover them so they can't. They have a heart attack / stroke / whatever. The bill is $250k / $500k / whatever. They can't pay. So they declare bankrupcy. Their bill is settled by everyone else.

American's are funding other people. The affordable healthcare act makes it mandatory for the feckless to take care of their own insurance and makes it possible for those with pre existing conditions to buy their own insurance. Republicans hate it because it's a democrat policy implemented by Obama. FFS, Romney, their standard bearer, bought in an almost identical programme in Mass when he was govenor. Now he views it as satanic! It's laughable.

As with most things, the topic is more complicated than you make out. The examples you give above comes under the heading of catastrophic insurance. Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act 1986, hospitals are forced to treat the results of such catastrophic accidents irrespective of whether the victim can pay or not. All other aspects of healthcare that are covered under a comprehensive insurance are not included by the above act, ie anything less than a catastrophic accident - normal illnesses etc.

So the problem with your reasoning is that all your examples above refer entirely to catastrophic insurance and if the individual mandate was only forcing catastrophic insurance on people, you would be right. The thing is, it isn't. It's forcing comprehensive insurance on everyone and to be acceptable to the individual mandate, a policy must include:

1. Ambulatory patient services
2. Emergency services
3. Hospitalisation
4. Maternity and newborn care
5. Mental health and substance use disorder services, including behavioural health treatment
6. Prescription drugs
7. Rehabilitative and habilitative services and devices
8. Laboratory services
9. Preventive and wellness services and chronic disease management
10. Pediatric services, including oral and vision care

As losses due to lack of catastrophic insurance are a very small part of the pie and Obama is forcing people to fund comprehensive insurance, your argument about Americans currently funding those without insurance is only marginally true for a few percentages.

[unrepentant]

Caulkhead said:

As with most things, the topic is more complicated than you make out. The examples you give above comes under the heading of catastrophic insurance. Under the Emergency Medical Treatment and Active Labor Act 1986, hospitals are forced to treat the results of such catastrophic accidents irrespective of whether the victim can pay or not.

Ability to pay is irrelevant. The biggest single cause of bankrupcy in America is medical debt. Catastrophic or not if you have a major incident and are uninsured you will be given a huge bill and often the only way to discharge the debt is bankrupcy. Happens many times every day.

As for the "few". 48 million Americans have no health insurance.

[sirtyro]

Marf said:

sirtyro said:

You do realise that the creators of south park were raised mormon

Matt Stone's parents were Jewish and he considers himself an Atheist.

Trey Parker was raised Christian I believe, but not mormon AFAIK.

From Wiki

On a September 2006 airing of the ABC news program Nightline, Parker articulated his position on religion. He stated that he believes there is knowledge that humanity may not yet possess, and cautioned that it would take a long time to explain exactly what he meant by his belief in God. Parker believes all religions are silly. He states that "All the religions are superfunny to me......The story of Jesus makes no sense to me. God sent his only son. Why could God only have one son and why would he have to die? It's just bad writing, really. And it's really terrible in about the second act."[27] Parker further remarked, "Basically ... out of all the ridiculous religion stories which are greatly, wonderfully ridiculous — the silliest one I've ever heard is, 'Yeah ... there's this big giant universe and it's expanding, it's all gonna collapse on itself and we're all just here just 'cause ... just 'cause'. That, to me, is the most ridiculous explanation ever."[28]

Edited by Marf on Friday 29th June 13:28

Learn something new everyday...I always understood they were raised Mormon....I apologise for previous incorrect post!

[Marf]

dumb dumb dumbdumbdumb!!