Bring Back Death Penalty

[pacman1]

nunattax said:

FOOL, BIRMINGHAM SIX ,GUILDFORD FOUR------RING ANY BELLS

You forget the Renault 5.

[andymadmak]

thinforth said:

So you are perfectly happy with being that innocent person?

Statistically I am more likely to be the innocent victim of a murderer than I am thd innocent victim of a murder trial. Ergo, it's actually safer for me to reinstate the DP! In other words, Yes.

Edited cos I am on a VERY bumpy train!

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 4th October 12:51

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 4th October 12:55

[nickbee]

andymadmak said:

Statistically I am more likely to be the innocent victim of a murderer than I am thd innocent victim of a murder trial. Ergo, it's actually safer for me to reinstate the DP! In other words, Yes.

But statistically, murder rates are higher in places with death penalties. You'd introduce the chance of being unjustly executed but you'd add it to an increased chance of being murdered. Ergo, you're more likely to be killed - and more worringly from my perspective, so am I!

[TTwiggy]

andymadmak said:

Statistically I am more likely to be the innocent victim of a murderer than I am thd innocent victim of a murder trial. Ergo, it's actually safer for me to reinstate the DP! In other words, Yes.

Edited cos I am on a VERY bumpy train!

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 4th October 12:51

Statistically, you are most likely to be murdered by a family member or person known to you. So unless you have any family members or friends who are convicted killers, who have subsequently been released from prison, the stats would suggest that the death penalty would do nothing to increase YOUR personal safety.

[andymadmak]

nickbee said:

andymadmak said:

Statistically I am more likely to be the innocent victim of a murderer than I am thd innocent victim of a murder trial. Ergo, it's actually safer for me to reinstate the DP! In other words, Yes.

But statistically, murder rates are higher in places with death penalties. You'd introduce the chance of being unjustly executed but you'd add it to an increased chance of being murdered. Ergo, you're more likely to be killed - and more worringly from my perspective, so am I!

Well i am only going to consider the UK. I don't accept the oft made comparisons with the USA and such like. And if I consider only the UK, and the clear evidence available, then your point is 100% wrong I am afraid

[andymadmak]

TTwiggy said:

andymadmak said:

Statistically I am more likely to be the innocent victim of a murderer than I am thd innocent victim of a murder trial. Ergo, it's actually safer for me to reinstate the DP! In other words, Yes.

Edited cos I am on a VERY bumpy train!

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 4th October 12:51

Statistically, you are most likely to be murdered by a family member or person known to you. So unless you have any family members or friends who are convicted killers, who have subsequently been released from prison, the stats would suggest that the death penalty would do nothing to increase YOUR personal safety.

That being the case ( about families/friends) how am I more likely to be at greater risk from the return of the DP? Try looking at the murder stats rather than simply guessing. It might surpise you

[TwigtheWonderkid]

AJS- said:

TwigtheWonderkid said:

AJS- said:

A man walking out of the woods with blood on his shirt killed the woman lying in the woods stabbed to death, beyond reasonable doubt.

That's right. Because no one who ever intervened to try and stop someone stabbing someone else ever got the victims blood on them. And no one who ever tried to revive someone who they found stabbed in the woods ever got the victims blood on them.

Christ on a bike. The idiocy of some posts never ceases to amaze me.

Calm down, it was an off the cuff example, not a key piece of evidence in murder trial.

I think, if you re-read your own post, you were saying blood on the shirt of a man near where a woman had been stabbed meant the case was "beyond reasonable doubt."

[TTwiggy]

andymadmak said:

TTwiggy said:

andymadmak said:

Statistically I am more likely to be the innocent victim of a murderer than I am thd innocent victim of a murder trial. Ergo, it's actually safer for me to reinstate the DP! In other words, Yes.

Edited cos I am on a VERY bumpy train!

Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 4th October 12:51

Statistically, you are most likely to be murdered by a family member or person known to you. So unless you have any family members or friends who are convicted killers, who have subsequently been released from prison, the stats would suggest that the death penalty would do nothing to increase YOUR personal safety.

That being the case ( about families/friends) how am I more likely to be at greater risk from the return of the DP? Try looking at the murder stats rather than simply guessing. It might surpise you

Who said more risk? You introduced statistics; I was merely pointing out you'd be no safer - statistically.

[Digga]

nickbee said:

But statistically, murder rates are higher in places with death penalties. You'd introduce the chance of being unjustly executed but you'd add it to an increased chance of being murdered. Ergo, you're more likely to be killed - and more worringly from my perspective, so am I!

Bullflop.



Figures relating to the USA tend to dominate but, as Micheal Moore's film illustrated, need very careful consideration. There are manifold reasons why the USA and Canada have such disparate crime statistics.

[thinfourth2]

andymadmak said:

Well i am only going to consider the UK. I don't accept the oft made comparisons with the USA and such like. And if I consider only the UK, and the clear evidence available, then your point is 100% wrong I am afraid

Okay show us the evidence that that removal of the death sentence has caused an increase in the murder rate and it is nothing to do with better detection rates, higher population density, the birth of rock and roll or the invention of nylon underpants

[andymadmak]

TTwiggy said:

Who said more risk? You introduced statistics; I was merely pointing out you'd be no safer - statistically.

But you'd be wrong in that assertion. Anyways, the DP debates always come down to the same basic questions:
Would you pull the lever yourself? Answer for me is YES

Would you see the potential death of an innocent man as an acceptable consequence : answer from me YES

Would you still feel that way if it was you who was that innocent victim? Answer from me YES

And my reasoning for this is simple.... The evidence in the UK ( and it is only evidence from the UK that I will consider in this debate) is that the DP would save HUNDREDS of innocent lives per year.

[TheHeretic]

andymadmak said:

But you'd be wrong in that assertion. Anyways, the DP debates always come down to the same basic questions:
Would you pull the lever yourself? Answer for me is YES

Would you see the potential death of an innocent man as an acceptable consequence : answer from me YES

Would you still feel that way if it was you who was that innocent victim? Answer from me YES

And my reasoning for this is simple.... The evidence in the UK ( and it is only evidence from the UK that I will consider in this debate) is that the DP would save HUNDREDS of innocent lives per year.

Sorry, bit if you were sat in an electric chair, innocent, there is no way you would be smiling as you went, or happy with agreeing.

It seems to me that you are happy to risk others lives in your race to either get revenge, or lower your tax bill.

Innocent people as an acceptable concequence? Jeez.

What evidence of the hundreds of lives saved?

[Twincam16]

andymadmak said:

TTwiggy said:

Who said more risk? You introduced statistics; I was merely pointing out you'd be no safer - statistically.

But you'd be wrong in that assertion. Anyways, the DP debates always come down to the same basic questions:
Would you pull the lever yourself? Answer for me is YES

Would you see the potential death of an innocent man as an acceptable consequence : answer from me YES

Would you still feel that way if it was you who was that innocent victim? Answer from me YES

And my reasoning for this is simple.... The evidence in the UK ( and it is only evidence from the UK that I will consider in this debate) is that the DP would save HUNDREDS of innocent lives per year.

Bonjour, M. Robespierre.

Also, how would the death penalty save hundreds of lives in the UK per year?

Has the murder rate risen since the death penalty was abolished?

Is it a sufficient deterrant or are you merely killing people who have killed - you just end up with two bodies instead of one.

Think about the reasons why we abolished the death penalty in the first place - it's not like we haven't been here before.

[andymadmak]

thinfourth2 said:

andymadmak said:

Well i am only going to consider the UK. I don't accept the oft made comparisons with the USA and such like. And if I consider only the UK, and the clear evidence available, then your point is 100% wrong I am afraid

Okay show us the evidence that that removal of the death sentence has caused an increase in the murder rate and it is nothing to do with better detection rates, higher population density, the birth of rock and roll or the invention of nylon underpants

You may have got me there on the Rock and Roll and the nylon underpants......

However the muder rate per million head of population DOUBLED within a matter of just a few years of the abolition of the DP. In the 60 years prior to abolition ( including a time of 2 world wards, the great depression, massive social change and an ending of many cultural norms) the rate in the UK held steady at around 7 per million head. Within 10 years of abolition it had hit 14. ( i believe it might be back to just around 10 these days)

[nickbee]

andymadmak said:

Well i am only going to consider the UK. I don't accept the oft made comparisons with the USA and such like. And if I consider only the UK, and the clear evidence available, then your point is 100% wrong I am afraid

On the contrary, comparing Britain to America is the only useful parallel you can draw. 2012 Britain bears greater similarities to 2012 America than it does to 1964 Britain - society has changed so much since then that a comparison is largely pointless. And these is no doubting the fact the in the USA murder rates are lower in states that do not have capital punishment.

But I'd be genuinely interested to hear what this clear evidence you have is.

[Eric Mc]

So without the death penalty - it's reducing?

[andymadmak]

TheHeretic said:

Sorry, bit if you were sat in an electric chair, innocent, there is no way you would be smiling as you went, or happy with agreeing.

It seems to me that you are happy to risk others lives in your race to either get revenge, or lower your tax bill.

Innocent people as an acceptable concequence? Jeez.

What evidence of the hundreds of lives saved?

Oh do sod off. Everything you have written about me there is based on your own assumptions. We have never met so don't try speaking for me. Innocent people are already dying you numbskull. I want fewer to die - as they did before the DP was abolished. Go read some Home Office data if you dont believe me

[TheHeretic]

anonymous said:

[redacted]

Nope. Failing to see the point though. Presumably you will try to attach the fact that I think someone is guilty, with the notion that we may as well kill them then, or something as equally as redundant?

Come on, what is your point?

[Twincam16]

andymadmak said:

thinfourth2 said:

andymadmak said:

Well i am only going to consider the UK. I don't accept the oft made comparisons with the USA and such like. And if I consider only the UK, and the clear evidence available, then your point is 100% wrong I am afraid

Okay show us the evidence that that removal of the death sentence has caused an increase in the murder rate and it is nothing to do with better detection rates, higher population density, the birth of rock and roll or the invention of nylon underpants

You may have got me there on the Rock and Roll and the nylon underpants......

However the muder rate per million head of population DOUBLED within a matter of just a few years of the abolition of the DP. In the 60 years prior to abolition ( including a time of 2 world wards, the great depression, massive social change and an ending of many cultural norms) the rate in the UK held steady at around 7 per million head. Within 10 years of abolition it had hit 14. ( i believe it might be back to just around 10 these days)

Murder rate has been dropping steadily for the last 30 years:

http://www.channel4.com/news/uk-murder-rate-falls-...

So if there was a case for the death penalty, it held greater resonance in 1982 than it does today.

[HRL]

I'm all for bringing back the DP. Hell, if the salary was right I'd even consider flicking the switch, pulling the lever, swinging the axe, myself.

Unless their guilt isn't 100% then no, the DP shouldn't be an option. But for cases where the evidence is irreputable then I'm all for it.

Castration for paedo's would be nice too but that's another debate.