another abuse gang

[TTwiggy]

996owner said:

This.

And whilst were all arguing between ourselves CHILDREN ARE BEING ABUSED. We need this sorting before more lives are ruined.
As far as the law is concerned. Skin color/religion background or "saying you didn't know it was wrong " has no bearing on the fact the law is been broken.

We know the authorities havn't wanted to deal with this for fear of being branded racists. As I say the law is being broken and regardless of by whom it needs sorting NOW

The law also didn't investigate because they had written these girls off as 'trouble' (in a similar way in which other victims of rape/abuse get labelled on other threads on here).

Again, there was a lot going on that led to where we are with this. It ALL needs looking at.

[rscott]

Rare said:

TTwiggy said:

Which is the point I've tried to make several times, though apparently it makes me an apologist.

There are a lot of factors at play; they should all be looked at INCLUDING ethnicity/community/religion.

All I've ever sought to do is to make it clear that focussing solely on the Muslim angle will only give fuel to those who use 'issues surrounding Islam' as a smokescreen to racism, while also offering these scumbags an 'excuse'.

The problem arose because people wouldn’t look at ethnicity / community / religion.

Even now saying Muslim as a factor results in an army of people pointing and deflecting away from it.
Let’s admit it is a factor and have wider society / government discuss it.

No, the problem is when people say being Muslim is the only factor. As TTwiggy says, it's one of many which need to be considered.

[Alpinestars]

Rare said:

But when we see common themes running through certain groups / crimes ?

Otherwise the only common trait in all of these crimes is men, which is far too broad to offer any investigation / discussion.

You don’t seem to want to accept that they are largely British? That’s a common trait.

It’s pretty well established that the perpetrators of sexual abuse of teenage kids via gangs is largely committed by British, Pakistani origin, muslim men. They also have other attributes in common, culture, low education, working in “opportune” jobs, etc. But the labels that people want to seem to be the stickiest are Pakistani, Muslim. Why?

Paedophiles who abuse younger children, also have something in common. Generally British, of British origin, Christian men. But is that how you describe that problem?

Hopefully, you’ll see the problem with some posters and their desire to make this identi paedophilia. It happens in all regions of the world, is committed by all walks of life. MO may vary, and the children can be divided into young, where there’s probably a wiring problem with the perpetrators(?), and older, teenagers, which is more about opportunistic, controlling behaviour.

[rscott]

TTwiggy said:

996owner said:

This.

And whilst were all arguing between ourselves CHILDREN ARE BEING ABUSED. We need this sorting before more lives are ruined.
As far as the law is concerned. Skin color/religion background or "saying you didn't know it was wrong " has no bearing on the fact the law is been broken.

We know the authorities havn't wanted to deal with this for fear of being branded racists. As I say the law is being broken and regardless of by whom it needs sorting NOW

The law also didn't investigate because they had written these girls off as 'trouble' (in a similar way in which other victims of rape/abuse get labelled on other threads on here).

Again, there was a lot going on that led to where we are with this. It ALL needs looking at.

If care services in Rotherham etc are like Norfolk's seem to have been, then it's not surprising the girls claims were ignored.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-3322...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-norfolk-4287...

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/politics/norfolk-chil...

https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/crime/abuse-allegatio...

[lyonspride]

Rare said:

TTwiggy said:

Which is the point I've tried to make several times, though apparently it makes me an apologist.

There are a lot of factors at play; they should all be looked at INCLUDING ethnicity/community/religion.

All I've ever sought to do is to make it clear that focussing solely on the Muslim angle will only give fuel to those who use 'issues surrounding Islam' as a smokescreen to racism, while also offering these scumbags an 'excuse'.

The problem arose because people wouldn’t look at ethnicity / community / religion.

Even now saying Muslim as a factor results in an army of people pointing and deflecting away from it.
Let’s admit it is a factor and have wider society / government discuss it.

My mates call it the Voldemort religion, so that we can discuss it without getting thrown out of the pub.

[TTwiggy]

lyonspride said:

My mates call it the Voldemort religion, so that we can discuss it without getting thrown out of the pub.

You and your mates sit around discussing Islam? Must be a fun night out.

[lyonspride]

TTwiggy said:

lyonspride said:

My mates call it the Voldemort religion, so that we can discuss it without getting thrown out of the pub.

You and your mates sit around discussing Islam? Must be a fun night out.

It may come up in conversation, like anything else, only it's a topic that's very hard to mention in public, so we use more subtle language, and the more trendy the location, the more careful you have to be.

[TTwiggy]

lyonspride said:

It may come up in conversation, like anything else, only it's a topic that's very hard to mention in public, so we use more subtle language, and the more trendy the location, the more careful you have to be.

Surely that depends on the tone of the discussion? I used to have quite lengthy discussions about Islam with a Muslim friend of mine in many a 'trendy' central London bar (he had soft drinks), and I would often be quite forceful around some of the areas I considered troubling with the religion. Nobody ever threw us out.

[Digga]

lyonspride said:

TTwiggy said:

lyonspride said:

My mates call it the Voldemort religion, so that we can discuss it without getting thrown out of the pub.

You and your mates sit around discussing Islam? Must be a fun night out.

It may come up in conversation, like anything else, only it's a topic that's very hard to mention in public, so we use more subtle language, and the more trendy the location, the more careful you have to be.

It's not a thought crime (yet) but I can think of far more fun ways to while away an evening.

Including reorganising the contents of my sock drawer.

[ceesvdelst]

I seriously doubt 60% of the Mulsim community live in poverty.

Not where I live they don/t

Perhaps sending vast swathe of their money back home is an issue or having 9 mortgages buy to rent?

That is not poverty it's living beyond tour means, greed drives some of their behaviours sadly in my experience.

Everyone cares about money, but a few of the Muslims I have met obsess about it far more than "we" do.

[TTwiggy]

I know many Sikhs who are equally 'obsessed'. I imagine that when your roots are in a country with little or no welfare state, and where the rich/poor divide can be a case of opulence v starvation, your mind might be a little more focussed on gathering wealth.

[Digga]

I think it fair to say that Asians from India and Pakistani families, even if they are mutli-generational British, are culturally different to many other British citizens.

Sikh friends of ours spent a few years working and living in Germany. when they moved back, for various reasons (sold UK home, started a family with two young children) they and the husband's parents all moved into a large house together. There are a few Asian families near them, where the working, adult children still live with their parents (and also grandparents in some cases), so this is by no mean unusual. I see it locally too.

For many of us, spending Christmas and Boxing Day with siblings, parents and other relatives is very much the limit, and even beyond for a few.

My parents, I am sure, would not appreciate me kicking back to listen to Motorhead, turned up to 11+, in the same house they were trying to live in.

However, I can see it works and there are really nice aspects of intergenerational care; children have granparents and the grandparents have their own children to rely on.

[JuanCarlosFandango]

jdw100 said:

JuanCarlosFandango said:

So is Rotherham a destination for Pakistani sex tourists?

Hi. I think that was in response to my point re white australians?

They are often not visitors but have settled here.

Immigrants, like me.

It was.

So sex Pat's?

It's not a good thing, and I hope the Indonesian authorities give them hell without fear of being labelled racist. But Indonesia is consistently ranked as one of the most corrupt countries in the world, and is presumably glad of tourist money. I would like to think the UK is better.

[TTwiggy]

It's rife in Ghana too. Old/middle-aged white men travelling out there to have sex with (very young) children (boys and girls). You could ask what is it about white Christian culture that makes them think it's ok to abuse black children.

[Alpinestars]

ceesvdelst said:

I seriously doubt 60% of the Mulsim community live in poverty.

Not where I live they don/t

Perhaps sending vast swathe of their money back home is an issue or having 9 mortgages buy to rent?

That is not poverty it's living beyond tour means, greed drives some of their behaviours sadly in my experience.

Everyone cares about money, but a few of the Muslims I have met obsess about it far more than "we" do.

Yes they are all like that.

[Rare]

TTwiggy said:

It's rife in Ghana too. Old/middle-aged white men travelling out there to have sex with (very young) children (boys and girls). You could ask what is it about white Christian culture that makes them think it's ok to abuse black children.

Quick look a single white person committing a crime in another country...


No idea, but forward some ideas and we can all discuss them.

[Rare]

Alpinestars said:

Rare said:

But when we see common themes running through certain groups / crimes ?

Otherwise the only common trait in all of these crimes is men, which is far too broad to offer any investigation / discussion.

You don’t seem to want to accept that they are largely British? That’s a common trait.

It’s pretty well established that the perpetrators of sexual abuse of teenage kids via gangs is largely committed by British, Pakistani origin, muslim men. They also have other attributes in common, culture, low education, working in “opportune” jobs, etc. But the labels that people want to seem to be the stickiest are Pakistani, Muslim. Why?

Paedophiles who abuse younger children, also have something in common. Generally British, of British origin, Christian men. But is that how you describe that problem?

Hopefully, you’ll see the problem with some posters and their desire to make this identi paedophilia. It happens in all regions of the world, is committed by all walks of life. MO may vary, and the children can be divided into young, where there’s probably a wiring problem with the perpetrators(?), and older, teenagers, which is more about opportunistic, controlling behaviour.

I do accept that they are British (the ones born here) but so what ??

[TTwiggy]

Rare said:

TTwiggy said:

It's rife in Ghana too. Old/middle-aged white men travelling out there to have sex with (very young) children (boys and girls). You could ask what is it about white Christian culture that makes them think it's ok to abuse black children.

Quick look a single white person committing a crime in another country...


No idea, but forward some ideas and we can all discuss them.

It's not a single white person, it's becoming epidemic since the loss of the conventional tourist trade to Ghana following the closure of Thomas Cook. Have a google, there have been a few articles written about it.

But this isn't 'whataboutism'. It's just another example of my point that anyone can pin anything they like on stuff like this, if it plays to their prejudices. Someone from the extreme left might consider paedophilic sex tourism, by white people to black/asian countries, as a form of colonialism and white privilege. When in reality, it's just stty people taking advantage of the vulnerable.

[Rare]

TTwiggy said:

Rare said:

TTwiggy said:

It's rife in Ghana too. Old/middle-aged white men travelling out there to have sex with (very young) children (boys and girls). You could ask what is it about white Christian culture that makes them think it's ok to abuse black children.

Quick look a single white person committing a crime in another country...


No idea, but forward some ideas and we can all discuss them.

It's not a single white person, it's becoming epidemic since the loss of the conventional tourist trade to Ghana following the closure of Thomas Cook. Have a google, there have been a few articles written about it.

But this isn't 'whataboutism'. It's just another example of my point that anyone can pin anything they like on stuff like this, if it plays to their prejudices. Someone from the extreme left might consider paedophilic sex tourism, by white people to black/asian countries, as a form of colonialism and white privilege. When in reality, it's just stty people taking advantage of the vulnerable.

Why on a thread about grooming gangs in the UK is a link regarding White British People carrying out crimes abroad anything but whataboutism ?

Although some posts appear to have vanished, did you point out the nonsense of posting up a Pakistani committing a crime in Pakistan, in relation to UK grooming ?

[TTwiggy]

Rare said:

Why on a thread about grooming gangs in the UK is a link regarding White British People carrying out crimes abroad anything but whataboutism ?

Although some posts appear to have vanished, did you point out the nonsense of posting up a Pakistani committing a crime in Pakistan, in relation to UK grooming ?

No, I said that a Pakistani committing a hit & run offence was irrelevant to the discussion, and rather smacked of looking for any bad thing done by a Muslim/Pakistani.

Sex tourism to Ghana is relevant in that the crime is similar. But I posted it as an example of picking on one thing and deciding that's the cause: 'They do it because they are Muslim and their book tells them it's ok' v 'They do it because they feel their white privilege gives them permission to abuse black kids'.

Are you going to address this, or are you going to skim past it again? How clearly do I need to spell out that picking on one aspect is at best counterproductive, and at worst indicative of ingrained prejudice?

Edited to add: I never said it was exclusively white British people in Ghana, it's actually white people from a number of countries (Russia and the Netherlands, for instance).

Edited by TTwiggy on Thursday 30th January 15:10