Snowmageddon - this Friday
Discussion
According to the BBC weather forecast this morning, the next ice age will get into full swing this Friday in the SouthWest of England.
Heavy and persistent snow will fall on frozen ground during the day and snowy cold weather will follow.
I suspect its all to do with MMGW.
Or solar flares.
If it doesn't cause 'traffic chaos' I'll be very disappointed with the BBC.
Heavy and persistent snow will fall on frozen ground during the day and snowy cold weather will follow.
I suspect its all to do with MMGW.
Or solar flares. If it doesn't cause 'traffic chaos' I'll be very disappointed with the BBC.
On of the most embarrassing things about being a Brit abroad (and with football hooligans etc., God knows there's plenty) is our inability to cope with a mere dusting of snow. A few years back I was strand3ed overnight in arctic Finland (the airport temp there was about -17 and there was plenty of snow in evidence) because nearly every UK airport had shut down due to an 'enormous' (i.e. a few inches) snowfall.
I'm sure the UK could cope with snow just fine if it invested in the equipment required, just as Finland will have done. Maybe there just isn't the appetite for that kind of spend when we don't get snow quite as often as Finland does.
Spend money on equipment that rarely gets used, or put up with a few closed roads and airports when it does snow.
You can see how the latter is chosen when belief in MMGW is so prevalent in the mainstream view.
Spend money on equipment that rarely gets used, or put up with a few closed roads and airports when it does snow.
You can see how the latter is chosen when belief in MMGW is so prevalent in the mainstream view.
Phil1 said:
I'm sure the UK could cope with snow just fine if it invested in the equipment required, just as Finland will have done. Maybe there just isn't the appetite for that kind of spend when we don't get snow quite as often as Finland does.
Spend money on equipment that rarely gets used, or put up with a few closed roads and airports when it does snow.
You can see how the latter is chosen when belief in MMGW is so prevalent in the mainstream view.
It is the cost of the chaos when (not if) we get snow that is noever factored properly IMHO. Besides we do get snow, not regular as clockwork, but it happens and we should be insured - by having kit to deal with it - accordingly.Spend money on equipment that rarely gets used, or put up with a few closed roads and airports when it does snow.
You can see how the latter is chosen when belief in MMGW is so prevalent in the mainstream view.
Phil1 said:
I'm sure the UK could cope with snow just fine if it invested in the equipment required, just as Finland will have done. Maybe there just isn't the appetite for that kind of spend when we don't get snow quite as often as Finland does.
Spend money on equipment that rarely gets used, or put up with a few closed roads and airports when it does.
You can see how the latter is chosen when belief in MMGW is so prevalent in the mainstream view.
I think the UK does cope just fine. It's the media industry and their professionally angry viewers who can't cope and have a total wSpend money on equipment that rarely gets used, or put up with a few closed roads and airports when it does.
You can see how the latter is chosen when belief in MMGW is so prevalent in the mainstream view.
kfest at the thought of snow. DonkeyApple said:
I think the UK does cope just fine. It's the media industry and their professionally angry viewers who can't cope and have a total wkfest at the thought of snow.
But it doesn't.kfest at the thought of snow. On the trip in question, I can distinctly remember looking at the snow blowers and ploughs at East Mids airport as I walked up the step into the aircraft, at which time there was no snow. In the event, it seems the equipment on hand was not servicable or adequate for the task - that's part of the issue. It seldom gets used/tested and so we don't really know/ensure it's up to scratch.
Digga said:
t is the cost of the chaos when (not if) we get snow that is noever factored properly IMHO. Besides we do get snow, not regular as clockwork, but it happens and we should be insured - by having kit to deal with it - accordingly.
The "cost of the chaos" is largely borne by companies whose staff don't turn up, or have other logistical problems.The "cost of the equipment" is largely borne by the taxpayer.
A temporary reduction in productivity probably won't have a lasting impact on tax revenues, and not to the extent that the Gov could do the maths to work out if the equipment can be paid for by avoiding the (possibly) drop in tax take.
DonkeyApple said:
I think the UK does cope just fine. It's the media industry and their professionally angry viewers who can't cope and have a total wkfest at the thought of snow.
Reminds me of this old Sniff Petrol issuekfest at the thought of snow. http://www.sniffpetrol.com/issue081.html
mrmr96 said:
The "cost of the equipment" is largely borne by the taxpayer.
We're already shouldring the cost of the equipment and its upkeep, but clearly in quite a few csaes, it's not been up to the job. I do notice, out and about, that there's been a lot of new gritter & plow trucks bought since the last major snows in 2010, so hopefully we'll do better...Hooli said:
All we need is bosses with the balls to say 'your lying, there was no reason not to turn up' & suddenly everyone would manage to travel in the slight snow we get.
I used to have a boss like that. Although he offered to anyone who physically could not make it in would come and pick them up. Came to pick me up a couple of times when I couldn't get the van out. All fine.Not very often people would say they couldn't make it in, as he would turn up at your house to pick you up. No excuses then.
The problem has two facets to my mind.
Yes, if an organisation knows they are going to have a major snow clearance need every year, then it is worthwhile investing in plant, employees and systems to deal with it. Ref Arlanda Stockholm airport, often discussed where snow could be cleared off the three runways in very short time.
However, even with organised setups like that, there are times when either a) the weather is just overwhelming or b) more often, at times when the airport is running at near full capacity the constraints placed on operations results in flight delays and passengers see this as not coping.
Heathrow operates pretty much at full capacity from early morning to late at night, therefore any extra constraint will automatically result in some delays and some cancellations in order to get back a bit of slack. For passengers not to accept this is somewhat unrealistic, and it's not necessarily the total fault of the airport's management, but rather that they have been put into this position by a series of muddling political decisions concerning 3rd runways, another London airport, and so on.
However, we must set against this, frequent evidence that Heathrow management just have not invested in sufficient equipment or resources, and the whole operation seems inept in dealing with what are laughably minor amounts of snow.
I have experienced the long delays in baggage due to earlier snow, which by the time we had landed had all melted. Nevertheless from a flight landing around 11pm, delayed because of said melted snow, baggage did not appear until almost 3am. As the airport said it was going to deliver the baggage eventually, but at an unknown time, people were not able to leave a missing baggage report. Thus any unclaimed bags would have been treated as lost property and eventually destroyed / sold in public auction.
It is episodes like this, where the airport operations are clearly totally inadequate, and flights being cancelled before any snow has actually fallen that destroys any sympathy or credibility with the travelling public, and results in such as Boris Johnson regarding them as defeatist.
Edited to deal with fat finger syndrome
Yes, if an organisation knows they are going to have a major snow clearance need every year, then it is worthwhile investing in plant, employees and systems to deal with it. Ref Arlanda Stockholm airport, often discussed where snow could be cleared off the three runways in very short time.
However, even with organised setups like that, there are times when either a) the weather is just overwhelming or b) more often, at times when the airport is running at near full capacity the constraints placed on operations results in flight delays and passengers see this as not coping.
Heathrow operates pretty much at full capacity from early morning to late at night, therefore any extra constraint will automatically result in some delays and some cancellations in order to get back a bit of slack. For passengers not to accept this is somewhat unrealistic, and it's not necessarily the total fault of the airport's management, but rather that they have been put into this position by a series of muddling political decisions concerning 3rd runways, another London airport, and so on.
However, we must set against this, frequent evidence that Heathrow management just have not invested in sufficient equipment or resources, and the whole operation seems inept in dealing with what are laughably minor amounts of snow.
I have experienced the long delays in baggage due to earlier snow, which by the time we had landed had all melted. Nevertheless from a flight landing around 11pm, delayed because of said melted snow, baggage did not appear until almost 3am. As the airport said it was going to deliver the baggage eventually, but at an unknown time, people were not able to leave a missing baggage report. Thus any unclaimed bags would have been treated as lost property and eventually destroyed / sold in public auction.
It is episodes like this, where the airport operations are clearly totally inadequate, and flights being cancelled before any snow has actually fallen that destroys any sympathy or credibility with the travelling public, and results in such as Boris Johnson regarding them as defeatist.
Edited to deal with fat finger syndrome
Edited by FiF on Wednesday 16th January 11:47
mrmr96 said:
Digga said:
t is the cost of the chaos when (not if) we get snow that is noever factored properly IMHO. Besides we do get snow, not regular as clockwork, but it happens and we should be insured - by having kit to deal with it - accordingly.
The "cost of the chaos" is largely borne by companies whose staff don't turn up, or have other logistical problems.The "cost of the equipment" is largely borne by the taxpayer.
A temporary reduction in productivity probably won't have a lasting impact on tax revenues, and not to the extent that the Gov could do the maths to work out if the equipment can be paid for by avoiding the (possibly) drop in tax take.
With the possible exception of December 2010, severe snow is so rare in this country (or at least in the major economic centres) that investment to cope with it would not produce a return.
It's cheaper all round to put up with a small amount of lost productivity. And it is only a small amount - despite what the media portray.
Digga said:
DonkeyApple said:
I think the UK does cope just fine. It's the media industry and their professionally angry viewers who can't cope and have a total wkfest at the thought of snow.
But it doesn't.kfest at the thought of snow. On the trip in question, I can distinctly remember looking at the snow blowers and ploughs at East Mids airport as I walked up the step into the aircraft, at which time there was no snow. In the event, it seems the equipment on hand was not servicable or adequate for the task - that's part of the issue. It seldom gets used/tested and so we don't really know/ensure it's up to scratch.
If it snows in the West Country on Friday I'm not going to be able to go home, but it's only going to be a few days.
The problem with snow here is the often quoted 'wrong kind of snow'.....
On the continent, the weather is usually a lot colder, and when the snow falls it remains crisp and 'dry'. Whereas in the UK it usually turns to a slush and then refreezes. The snow clearing machines used in many countries wouldn't cope with this kind of stuff. So we're left with ploughing it off the roads instead of using the kind of blowers they use in many countries that get months of snowy weather. And ploughs rely on good traction to force the snow away.
plow/plough duh
On the continent, the weather is usually a lot colder, and when the snow falls it remains crisp and 'dry'. Whereas in the UK it usually turns to a slush and then refreezes. The snow clearing machines used in many countries wouldn't cope with this kind of stuff. So we're left with ploughing it off the roads instead of using the kind of blowers they use in many countries that get months of snowy weather. And ploughs rely on good traction to force the snow away.
plow/plough duh
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