Apparently, diversity is white genocide.

[4v6]

fido said:

4v6 said:

I can only postulate that as societies as a whole use those terms thats what basically decides, its not down to any person or organisation, it just is the way it is.

The latter part of the sentence is a cracking song.

Back on topic, society has changed quite a bit over the last few decades. Not more than 75 years ago mass genocide was the norm across much of the globe. And only 25 years ago, so-called civilised nations still had racial quotas on immigration. Today, you can get arrested for being a Spurs supporter.

Problem is I suspect, and correct me if I'm wrong, you are probably grew up in an environment when it was still okay to refer to a black person as a n****r ? Think it was becoming unpopular if not uncommon when I was at school. And I'm often surprised at how PC World my younger relatives are nowadays.

It wouldnt really have been acceptable to refer to someone as you suggest there in my younger days although I did hear it used on occasion.
It irritates me today to hear black people referring to themselves with the same word almost as a badge of honour, mostly in film and that rap shyte, yet anyone else say it and its off to the cells especially as its deemed so offensive.
Houses need to be put in order I feel.

[Mr Snap]

4v6 said:

Ha! The multiple quote things really easy, it must be if even I can do it.

Hmmm points 2 and 3 I'm still struggling with to be honest.
I can only postulate that as societies as a whole use those terms thats what basically decides, its not down to any person or organisation, it just is the way it is.

I'm english and I'd be able to refer to the welsh or scots as "them and us" without any particular significance being placed on the two words themselves as the differences in language and culture are readily apparent to me when either of them speak.
To me it appears your hinting the words have some ulterior meaning, maybe I just dont get it, it wouldnt be the first time.

I think his point is that "them and us" are completely amorphous and indefinable. It can be used to include or exclude practically whoever you want. You draw the line at Wales and Scotland but try that out on a few french people and a fair number of them wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. As far as many french people are concerned, we're all Les Anglais... Go even further afield and there are plenty of people who think the UK is part of the USA.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people from the north of England who would say that southerners have a completely different culture to them. Or how about north of the river vs south of the river in London? Town vs Gown. Aristo's vs Plebs. Town vs Country. Protestants vs Catholics. All marginal differences but enough to set people to hitting lumps out of each other.

Whenever people start going down the "us" vs "them" pathway you can usually trace it back to one set of people seeking to gain some kind of advantage over another set of people. And when that happens any difference, no matter how subtle, will do...

[Mr Snap]

4v6 said:

Ha! The multiple quote things really easy, it must be if even I can do it.

Hmmm points 2 and 3 I'm still struggling with to be honest.
I can only postulate that as societies as a whole use those terms thats what basically decides, its not down to any person or organisation, it just is the way it is.

I'm english and I'd be able to refer to the welsh or scots as "them and us" without any particular significance being placed on the two words themselves as the differences in language and culture are readily apparent to me when either of them speak.
To me it appears your hinting the words have some ulterior meaning, maybe I just dont get it, it wouldnt be the first time.

I think his point is that "them and us" are completely amorphous and indefinable. It can be used to include or exclude practically whoever you want. You draw the line at Wales and Scotland but try that out on a few french people and a fair number of them wouldn't have a clue what you were talking about. As far as many french people are concerned, we're all Les Anglais... Go even further afield and there are plenty of people who think the UK is part of the USA.
On the other hand, there are plenty of people from the north of England who would say that southerners have a completely different culture to them. Or how about north of the river vs south of the river in London? Town vs Gown. Aristo's vs Plebs. Town vs Country. Protestants vs Catholics. All marginal differences but enough to set people to hitting lumps out of each other.

Whenever people start going down the "us" vs "them" pathway you can usually trace it back to one set of people seeking to gain some kind of advantage over another set of people. And when that happens any difference, no matter how subtle, will do...

[mattnunn]

4v6 said:

It wouldnt really have been acceptable to refer to someone as you suggest there in my younger days although I did hear it used on occasion.
It irritates me today to hear black people referring to themselves with the same word almost as a badge of honour, mostly in film and that rap shyte, yet anyone else say it and its off to the cells especially as its deemed so offensive.
Houses need to be put in order I feel.

all language and communication is about context. Your insistence that words have single fixed meaning is a bit weird.

[Pappa Lurve]

mattnunn said:

4v6 said:

It wouldnt really have been acceptable to refer to someone as you suggest there in my younger days although I did hear it used on occasion.
It irritates me today to hear black people referring to themselves with the same word almost as a badge of honour, mostly in film and that rap shyte, yet anyone else say it and its off to the cells especially as its deemed so offensive.
Houses need to be put in order I feel.

all language and communication is about context. Your insistence that words have single fixed meaning is a bit weird.

Agreed. It is very hard sometimes for those unaffected to understand how a community may wish to deal with such things. Not wanting to opemn a new can of worms but it is the same as football fans saying they mean Yid in a certain context. Irrelevant when the vast majority of Jews find the term deeply offensive. Such situations reuqire those not directly affected to just understand they may not understand!

My whole point 4v6, about them and us is as mattnum said. If one cannot even define what they are, then they are totally devisive terms. Let me qualify - I am going to assume the vast majority on this thread are white, probably Christian background although not terribly or even at all observant, males, generally working, generally with above average income. Let us assume that to be true. Is that the "us" here? But what if one of those "us" is not British, or does not feel they are part of the "us" for whatever reason... who decides and why? More importantly, who gives you (I mean in a general term for anyone who claims to speak for the undefined us, not specifically 4v6 or anyone on here!) the ability to speak for an us or about a them? Try to find even ten people who are part of the US and I can show you ten people who shold not be, perhaps they support the wrong football team, perhaps they didn;t go to the same kind of school, dont like the same food, whatever. We are all different by nature and thus the concept of a group of "us" which is somehow different to the vast hordes of them which must, by simple definition, be everyone who is not us, is ppointless. Even more so as those conversations lead inevitably to someone speaking for the "us" without the permission of the people the speaker decideds they speak for, and they will project onto the the "them" views, motivations, beleifs etc which are not universal, or even general becuase the "them" itself in these kind of conversations cannot be a defined group.

You try to show me any group of "us" and I can show you that each individual cannot possibloy fit the critera unless those critera are so wide, open and vague that the us becomes undefinable, and thus one ends up speaking for a group that one cannot define, without their permission, knowledge or even any ifdea opther than a general assumption that those in the group defined without them even knowing, must agree with it.

I am a British Citizen. I loathed our last Government, yet they were voted in. So anyone refering to the British at the time could say "they voted for Blair so they all approve of him" whihc is clearly rubbish. SO why do we assume that all of "then" whoever they may be, share the same views on everything, or indeed anything?! Do the Brits? Do smaller untis such as even two family members?!

TYhere are very few simple truths but as I see it the vast majority of people, all people, want safety, peace, a few quid, a meal on the table and some stability for their kids and themselves. They just disagree on how to make that happen. Very, very few people would say they want muchy else in life as a total percentage of the hman population I suggest. They may want more than that but I think one would struggle to find many who dont want that so that being the case, that is the only "us" I can see, which results in one then claiming to speak for the vast majority of the earths population which is impossible to ssay very much about at all as a single entity of beleifs and values.

I can though, cos I am very wise and secretly the grand universal ubermaster... but modesty prevents me showing off about it :-P

[Pappa Lurve]

One quick comment to add - I personally think the fact we are all chatting about this, generally with respect to each others views and polite and constructive exchages for the most part, indicates to me that there really is very little reason that even those with very different views can and do communicate, live together and gain from each other. One thing I can be sure of is that this thread, and indeed PH as a whole, is very diverse group of people and I feel that we all benefit from that as we do in society as a whole.

Well, unless you disagree with me obviously... or are one of "them"... or drive a G-wizz or Toyota Pious Type things. Then you are wrong. always. end of :-P

[Digga]

Group think can be powerful and dangerous - the dynamic can defy any individual logic. However, it is (fortunately) proven, throughout history and across every continent, that very diverse groups can not only co-exist but also co-operate and benefit from their society.

Where things most often tend to fall down is where rapid and large-scale changes are forced onto communities or areas - either by military invasion, or by very large exodus.

[Pappa Lurve]

Digga said:

Group think can be powerful and dangerous - the dynamic can defy any individual logic. However, it is (fortunately) proven, throughout history and across every continent, that very diverse groups can not only co-exist but also co-operate and benefit from their society.

Where things most often tend to fall down is where rapid and large-scale changes are forced onto communities or areas - either by military invasion, or by very large exodus.

Agree 100%

[AW111]

I find it interesting that often the most violent "us and them" conflicts or rhetoric can occur between incredibly similar groups, where in many cases people on both sides would be indistinguishable to the outside observer.

Football fans from the same town.
Ireland (not so much recently) .
UKIP vs LibDem middle class anglos
The balkans at various times.
Germany vs Austria in the C19
Civil wars

[mattnunn]

AW111 said:

I find it interesting that often the most violent "us and them" conflicts or rhetoric can occur between incredibly similar groups, where in many cases people on both sides would be indistinguishable to the outside observer.

Football fans from the same town.
Ireland (not so much recently) .
UKIP vs LibDem middle class anglos
The balkans at various times.
Germany vs Austria in the C19
Civil wars

Indeed, not to mention Shiite vs Sunni, Catholic vs Protestant etc... The more niche your identity the more protective you have to be over it from overlapping niches.

[Digga]

mattnunn said:

Indeed, not to mention Shiite vs Sunni, Catholic vs Protestant etc... The more niche your identity the more protective you have to be over it from overlapping niches.

And conversely, the greater the potential threat of one side usurping and wiping out the other culturally.

[PRTVR]

Digga said:

Group think can be powerful and dangerous - the dynamic can defy any individual logic. However, it is (fortunately) proven, throughout history and across every continent, that very diverse groups can not only co-exist but also co-operate and benefit from their society.

Where things most often tend to fall down is where rapid and large-scale changes are forced onto communities or areas - either by military invasion, or by very large exodus.

Could it not also be caused by large scale immigration?
if the resident population fell their way of life threatened, a few weeks ago on the news there was an Asian man complaining about the large amount of immigrants coming into his town, the immigrants were Romanian, would he have complained if they had been Asian........

[Pappa Lurve]

PRTVR said:

Digga said:

Group think can be powerful and dangerous - the dynamic can defy any individual logic. However, it is (fortunately) proven, throughout history and across every continent, that very diverse groups can not only co-exist but also co-operate and benefit from their society.

Where things most often tend to fall down is where rapid and large-scale changes are forced onto communities or areas - either by military invasion, or by very large exodus.

Could it not also be caused by large scale immigration?
if the resident population fell their way of life threatened, a few weeks ago on the news there was an Asian man complaining about the large amount of immigrants coming into his town, the immigrants were Romanian, would he have complained if they had been Asian........

Of course it could but legitmatly, only at refugee level. Look at the Lebannon now for an example. However, anyone who feels that the UK is inundated only actually has to look at the percentages. The absoliute vast majority of people here are born here.

When I used to spend a lot of time in Israel, it focuses the mind. 60% of the population then were immigrants, lower than previous generations! That was a reall issue yet very rarely did it create an issue. To be fair though, if you want to live there long term you are required to learn at least enough Hebrew to hac k your way through, even though pretty much the entire place speaks fluent English.

[DeanR32]

PRTVR said:

Could it not also be caused by large scale immigration?
if the resident population fell their way of life threatened, a few weeks ago on the news there was an Asian man complaining about the large amount of immigrants coming into his town, the immigrants were Romanian, would he have complained if they had been Asian........

I think it could be caused by large scale immigration. Although in some cases, I can understand why they come here, and don't blame them when they do, as we're quite soft in these situations

How do you know the Asian guy on the news isn't worried about immigrants affecting his way of life, which happens to be quite a British one and one that he's rightly proud of?

I worry about immigration too. There is more coming here than we can cope with. The thread was started by me about the BNP though, who would fk me off out of it for the colour of my skin. That don't seem logical or fair to me

[PRTVR]

DeanR32 said:

PRTVR said:

Could it not also be caused by large scale immigration?
if the resident population fell their way of life threatened, a few weeks ago on the news there was an Asian man complaining about the large amount of immigrants coming into his town, the immigrants were Romanian, would he have complained if they had been Asian........

I think it could be caused by large scale immigration. Although in some cases, I can understand why they come here, and don't blame them when they do, as we're quite soft in these situations

How do you know the Asian guy on the news isn't worried about immigrants affecting his way of life, which happens to be quite a British one and one that he's rightly proud of?

I worry about immigration too. There is more coming here than we can cope with. The thread was started by me about the BNP though, who would fk me off out of it for the colour of my skin. That don't seem logical or fair to me

The man on the news could have been worried about his British way of life but as the area he was from was predominantly Asian the Romanians stood out, if there had been 2000 more Asians how would he tell and would he care ?

[4v6]

DeanR32 said:

I think it could be caused by large scale immigration. Although in some cases, I can understand why they come here, and don't blame them when they do, as we're quite soft in these situations

How do you know the Asian guy on the news isn't worried about immigrants affecting his way of life, which happens to be quite a British one and one that he's rightly proud of?

I worry about immigration too. There is more coming here than we can cope with. The thread was started by me about the BNP though, who would fk me off out of it for the colour of my skin. That don't seem logical or fair to me

Worry not about the bnp or what they say, its not like theyll ever get their way, they have the right to spout their tripe, the rest of us have the right to ignore them and point and laugh at the clown act they put on for us.

I'm still having problems figuring this alternate "them and us" meaning, but its prompted me to observe that maybe if the gleeful clapping of little hands and proclamations of "look at us, look how diverse we are" stopped, things might change.
I say that because it seems a little ironic to be highlighting our differences instead of highlighting our similarities.
The methods by which "oneness" is being sought is whats creating the them and us issue and conversely helps to reinforce division, as its differences, ie "diversity" thats constantly being "celebrated" by a never ending series of right-on champers supping socialists.
Leave us all alone and we'll get on fine, we dont need to keep being reminded of our diverse traits, theyre bleeding obvious to us......
Thats how I see it anyway.

[DeanR32]

I see your point TVR, but I can't answer for the bloke. On the flip side, neither can you.

I get what you mean though, I do. Maybe if someone doesn't like the family who have just moved in next door, and the next one who moves in opposite, and the Indian family who run the corner shop up the road, then maybe that person could be either classed as patriotic or prejudist to some degree? Whatever they feel, that's fine by me. Don't be hanging up banners saying I'm polluting their superior being with my dark self! That ain't nice is it!

Still, you don't half get some people eh!

[Halb]

The earliest Brits that we know of, are the Grooved Ware people, possible it is this lot that created Skara Brae, a Fred Flinstone style village in the Orkneys.

[DeanR32]

4v6 said:

Worry not about the bnp or what they say, its not like theyll ever get their way, they have the right to spout their tripe, the rest of us have the right to ignore them and point and laugh at the clown act they put on for us.

I'm still having problems figuring this alternate "them and us" meaning, but its prompted me to observe that maybe if the gleeful clapping of little hands and proclamations of "look at us, look how diverse we are" stopped, things might change.
I say that because it seems a little ironic to be highlighting our differences instead of highlighting our similarities.
The methods by which "oneness" is being sought is whats creating the them and us issue and conversely helps to reinforce division, as its differences, ie "diversity" thats constantly being "celebrated" by a never ending series of right-on champers supping socialists.
Leave us all alone and we'll get on fine, we dont need to keep being reminded of our diverse traits, theyre bleeding obvious to us......
Thats how I see it anyway.

Well put.

It got my goat because I have kids and I don't want them ever seeing st like that, or going through st I did. I've seen enough of the C18, NF, BNP etc for it to bother me.

I've heard st shouted at me, especially when fools started taking notice of the BNP as a political party. "We'll get in and you get out" was one (I thought that was pretty articulate!). The last time I heard. "There ain't no black in the Union Jack" was as recent as the Olympics, just because Mo Farah draped the flag round his shoulders. I left that pub sharpish!

And regards the "them and us" thing, in my eyes, it's them (the world) vs us (me, the wife and my two kids). That's how everyone's attitude should be. You're either a decent human being, or a . Colour should never come into it.

Shame it does though

[irocfan]

DeanR32 said:

I heard. "There ain't no black in the Union Jack" was as recent as the Olympics, just because Mo Farah draped the flag round his shoulders.

seriously??? WOW, I'm quite stunned - I do agree with you about the whole family unit being 'us' type of thing though