Meanwhile in Turkey
Discussion
Likes Fast Cars said:
ABZ RS6 said:
So I take it all the ones that voted Yes will be buggering off back to Turkey then?
No, didn't think so.....
Oh sNo, didn't think so.....
t no! I hope they don't, this place is already bad enough.What was the reaction to the Netherlands to denying entry to the Family and social policy minister? There were quite a few large enough demonstrations with a certain image playing top trumps with number of Turkish diaspora vs number of Dutch military which to me was insane and shows a very negative attitude in certain parts of the Turkish community within Europe, what was the opinion inside Turkey from your POV?
What you have to realise is that Turks mostly have a chip on their shoulder for not being allowed into the European club when what they deem to be "lessor" countries have been. Plus you have the sticky issue of Turkey being a majority Muslim country and most of Europe being Christian which is strike two. Lastly don't forget the attempted European Invasion of Turkey is barely 100 years old so not so long ago that it's been consigned to history. In short the relationship between Turkey and the rest of Europe has never been what you'd call very congenial,
This was sort of changing prior to Erdogan's arrival on the scene with a gradual but steady westernisation of Turkey and while the newer generation welcomed the move, there was also a lot of resentment from the older generation of what they saw as an abandoning of traditional Turkish values.
Then along comes Erdogan with his rallying speeches of returning Turkey to it's good old days of Ottoman Empire when it used to be a world superpower and the re-adopting of traditional values. This of course also meant basically sticking two fingers up at Europe, America, Israel and anyone else he feels like. He has thus engendered a very strong them vs us mentality throughout a large majority of the country,
This is largely Erdogan's doing but Europe also shares some of that blame. For years certain member states have vilified Turkey, yes it certainly had it's issues in the past but not really any more than quite a few other member states which have since been allowed to join. People where still making jokes about Midnight Express and Turkish prisons long after such issues were resolved and using this as a pretext to bar Turkey, I can only put this down to long held grudges for past slights. In short it was a perfect storm, snubbed by Europe, Erdogan has filled a perfect void. Turks are traditionally a very nationalistic nation anyway and Erdogan has tapped into that seam perfectly therefore I'm not at all surprised that his supporters seem only too ready to take on Europe and the rest of the world.
This was sort of changing prior to Erdogan's arrival on the scene with a gradual but steady westernisation of Turkey and while the newer generation welcomed the move, there was also a lot of resentment from the older generation of what they saw as an abandoning of traditional Turkish values.
Then along comes Erdogan with his rallying speeches of returning Turkey to it's good old days of Ottoman Empire when it used to be a world superpower and the re-adopting of traditional values. This of course also meant basically sticking two fingers up at Europe, America, Israel and anyone else he feels like. He has thus engendered a very strong them vs us mentality throughout a large majority of the country,
This is largely Erdogan's doing but Europe also shares some of that blame. For years certain member states have vilified Turkey, yes it certainly had it's issues in the past but not really any more than quite a few other member states which have since been allowed to join. People where still making jokes about Midnight Express and Turkish prisons long after such issues were resolved and using this as a pretext to bar Turkey, I can only put this down to long held grudges for past slights. In short it was a perfect storm, snubbed by Europe, Erdogan has filled a perfect void. Turks are traditionally a very nationalistic nation anyway and Erdogan has tapped into that seam perfectly therefore I'm not at all surprised that his supporters seem only too ready to take on Europe and the rest of the world.
MrBrightSi said:
Likes Fast Cars said:
ABZ RS6 said:
So I take it all the ones that voted Yes will be buggering off back to Turkey then?
No, didn't think so.....
Oh sNo, didn't think so.....
t no! I hope they don't, this place is already bad enough.What was the reaction to the Netherlands to denying entry to the Family and social policy minister? There were quite a few large enough demonstrations with a certain image playing top trumps with number of Turkish diaspora vs number of Dutch military which to me was insane and shows a very negative attitude in certain parts of the Turkish community within Europe, what was the opinion inside Turkey from your POV?
A lot of people got truly offended that a Turkish minister - a Turk (no matter how hated / ineffective / incompetent / religious) - was manhandled by police / security in a foreign country and thrown out.
I was staggered by the general attitude and I had quite a few (near heated) disagreements with people including very secular, anti-AKP, well educated people I know who said the Dutch had no right to do what they did, etc. (this coming from people who despise Erdogan and the way the AKP acts).
Even when I highlighted the facts such as:
she was not granted permission to enter The Netherlands for that purpose,
the meeting / gathering was not approved for whatever legitimate reasons and should not have taken place,
it is unacceptable protocol anywhere (political rallying outside of the country when there is no equal opposition representation),
the Dutch are in an election cycle (at that time) and it's normal in some countries to ban electioneering for any other purpose,
etc.,
and highlighted the fact Turkey is quick to remove anyone who speaks out against Reggie or the AKP, or who break the law by for example conducting an assembly of people without a permit / permission.
There was a view that no country can tell their minister what to do and it's not the same as Turkey reacting to something on Turkish soil, and the Dutch were wrong!
When I challenged people as to why the opposition didn't attempt to conduct the same sort of gatherings for the "no" case I was told this is "not the done thing, it is disrespectful to the government and people would see it as causing trouble" !!! WTF!!! (sounds more like something the British would say....).
I was astounded at the "typically Turkish" attitude many people here showed.
It's no wonder Europeans don't want Turkey to join the EU.
The Turks tend to have a pre-disposition of experiencing a rush of blood to the head / red mist when they feel someone is being anti-Turkish - & a Turk is always right!! Just ask my wife
The opposition, in the end, said to Reggie Erdogan "go on brother, we're all right behind, go fix the Netherlands and take whatever retaliation you like, you have our full backing and support, just like you threatened to do to Russia". Of course, as expected, nothing happened and that's when it all started to go downhill for Reggie Erdogan.
Although the ongoing attempts to brainwash people with incessant TV adverts for "yes" which continued ad-nauseum.
Guvernator said:
What you have to realise is that Turks mostly have a chip on their shoulder for not being allowed into the European club when what they deem to be "lessor" countries have been. Plus you have the sticky issue of Turkey being a majority Muslim country and most of Europe being Christian which is strike two. Lastly don't forget the attempted European Invasion of Turkey is barely 100 years old so not so long ago that it's been consigned to history. In short the relationship between Turkey and the rest of Europe has never been what you'd call very congenial,
This was sort of changing prior to Erdogan's arrival on the scene with a gradual but steady westernisation of Turkey and while the newer generation welcomed the move, there was also a lot of resentment from the older generation of what they saw as an abandoning of traditional Turkish values.
Then along comes Erdogan with his rallying speeches of returning Turkey to it's good old days of Ottoman Empire when it used to be a world superpower and the re-adopting of traditional values. This of course also meant basically sticking two fingers up at Europe, America, Israel and anyone else he feels like. He has thus engendered a very strong them vs us mentality throughout a large majority of the country,
This is largely Erdogan's doing but Europe also shares some of that blame. For years certain member states have vilified Turkey, yes it certainly had it's issues in the past but not really any more than quite a few other member states which have since been allowed to join. People where still making jokes about Midnight Express and Turkish prisons long after such issues were resolved and using this as a pretext to bar Turkey, I can only put this down to long held grudges for past slights. In short it was a perfect storm, snubbed by Europe, Erdogan has filled a perfect void. Turks are traditionally a very nationalistic nation anyway and Erdogan has tapped into that seam perfectly therefore I'm not at all surprised that his supporters seem only too ready to take on Europe and the rest of the world.
Yes agree.This was sort of changing prior to Erdogan's arrival on the scene with a gradual but steady westernisation of Turkey and while the newer generation welcomed the move, there was also a lot of resentment from the older generation of what they saw as an abandoning of traditional Turkish values.
Then along comes Erdogan with his rallying speeches of returning Turkey to it's good old days of Ottoman Empire when it used to be a world superpower and the re-adopting of traditional values. This of course also meant basically sticking two fingers up at Europe, America, Israel and anyone else he feels like. He has thus engendered a very strong them vs us mentality throughout a large majority of the country,
This is largely Erdogan's doing but Europe also shares some of that blame. For years certain member states have vilified Turkey, yes it certainly had it's issues in the past but not really any more than quite a few other member states which have since been allowed to join. People where still making jokes about Midnight Express and Turkish prisons long after such issues were resolved and using this as a pretext to bar Turkey, I can only put this down to long held grudges for past slights. In short it was a perfect storm, snubbed by Europe, Erdogan has filled a perfect void. Turks are traditionally a very nationalistic nation anyway and Erdogan has tapped into that seam perfectly therefore I'm not at all surprised that his supporters seem only too ready to take on Europe and the rest of the world.
A few of your points I have touched on in my other reply above.
Erdogan thinks he can re-create Ottoman greatness and make himself the caliph. Seriously.
The prisons and Midnight Express scenario though are a fact of life especially for "dissident" journalists and others who are falling foul of Reggie & his thugs. There is also a big gun culture "life is cheap" attitude here; e.g.: a Turkish guy does something stupid in the traffic (normal for them) and the car behind / or who was almost run into sounds his horn, the offending guy thinks he is "always right", feels his "macho-ness" is being challenged, etc., by the guy beeping them so he'll get out with a gun and murder the other driver, it happens at least once a week somewhere in the country.
There is a need for this country to grow up and act "normally". I tell my wife it's no wonder the Europeans and most other countries don't want you lot. She agrees.
MrBrightSi said:
Thanks for the reply fast cars, fascinating post.
Thanks, you're welcome. Time to wander up the road for some food (wife not cooking tonight), I'll try not to get run over.
I'll be at the local kofte place and think "why do they have a prayer room in a restaurant?" ....... and no beer on the menu.
Likes Fast Cars said:
Yes agree.
A few of your points I have touched on in my other reply above.
Erdogan thinks he can re-create Ottoman greatness and make himself the caliph. Seriously.
The prisons and Midnight Express scenario though are a fact of life especially for "dissident" journalists and others who are falling foul of Reggie & his thugs. There is also a big gun culture "life is cheap" attitude here; e.g.: a Turkish guy does something stupid in the traffic (normal for them) and the car behind / or who was almost run into sounds his horn, the offending guy thinks he is "always right", feels his "macho-ness" is being challenged, etc., by the guy beeping them so he'll get out with a gun and murder the other driver, it happens at least once a week somewhere in the country.
There is a need for this country to grow up and act "normally". I tell my wife it's no wonder the Europeans and most other countries don't want you lot. She agrees.
Yes but this was all changing, prior to Erdogan's arrival on the scene in 2003, the period between the late 80's and the end of the millennium saw Turkey fix quite a lot of it's human rights issues. Yes they still had problems and yes the macho culture was still prevalent but really no worse then parts of the US or some other European countries. They'd managed to mostly get their act together and were willing to play by EU rules, the fact that despite this progress they were still barred entry was the cause of a lot of resentment which created the opportunity for someone like Erodogan to turn things around and take Turkey back down a path that is leading them away from Europe again. A few of your points I have touched on in my other reply above.
Erdogan thinks he can re-create Ottoman greatness and make himself the caliph. Seriously.
The prisons and Midnight Express scenario though are a fact of life especially for "dissident" journalists and others who are falling foul of Reggie & his thugs. There is also a big gun culture "life is cheap" attitude here; e.g.: a Turkish guy does something stupid in the traffic (normal for them) and the car behind / or who was almost run into sounds his horn, the offending guy thinks he is "always right", feels his "macho-ness" is being challenged, etc., by the guy beeping them so he'll get out with a gun and murder the other driver, it happens at least once a week somewhere in the country.
There is a need for this country to grow up and act "normally". I tell my wife it's no wonder the Europeans and most other countries don't want you lot. She agrees.
For a country of such strategic importance, the EU really could have done far more to be welcoming at the beginning of the millennium when they were probably about ready to join, instead they procrastinated and have probably lost that window of opportunity to make Turkey inot a strong ally rather than an enemy.
Guvernator said:
For a country of such strategic importance, the EU really could have done far more to be welcoming at the beginning of the millennium when they were probably about ready to join, instead they procrastinated and have probably lost that window of opportunity to make Turkey inot a strong ally rather than an enemy.
That's the thing.... the strategic importance and potential to really move the country forward has probably now gone. A good mate of mine & I had lunch yesterday, he is one of these Turks who has lived and worked internationally and is a mover & shaker in the finance sector (no names... but he knows everything that has gone on and which is going on), he says the country, especially under the AKP, has screwed the pooch, the boat has sailed, but he blames the AKP for it more than EU or anyone else. As he said "religion has fked this whole country".Likes Fast Cars said:
The threats the AKP and especially make are disgraceful. The campaign was full of blatant lies and threats, the man is a mad dictator.
Interesting that so many see through it, the "few to zero seemed to support Erdogan in the referendum" were definitely countered by those voting for "yes", or by the AKP rigging the ballots.
Yup, pretty sad indeed. Before the referendum I was wondering why they were bothering at all to allow voting for Turks abroad. But I think they worked it out beforehand and I'm pretty sure that at least for Germany they did not even have to resort to rigging. Interesting that so many see through it, the "few to zero seemed to support Erdogan in the referendum" were definitely countered by those voting for "yes", or by the AKP rigging the ballots.
Think they just looked at the demographics. Of the ~ 3.5 m Turks and Turkish descendants over here, only 10% voted for Reggie. The rest were either not eligible, did not care to vote or were scared away. The pro-AKP bunch of course was fully mobilized and showed up hence the +60% percent.
And some real clever trolling on the finish line. They knew sending AKP politicians over here and to the Netherlands would cause endless debate and coverage. And more importantly it would nicely trigger the 'small-dick syndrome' that, pardon the generalization, many Turkish seem to have. "How come they disrespect us so much -- we will show them!". I don't know why, but there's some strong inferiority complex going on here that is easy to exploit.
Regarding the dual-citizenship, that's under debate now again because most people just look at the headline of a +60% vote. Conclusion is that more than half of the people one identifies as Turks must be against western values and democracy. Bit of a tragedy. While I'm not a fan of multi citizenship per se, I think for Turks over here it could actually help integration.
We'll see how that goes, but in the current political climate it looks like this will be another bridge burned. Angela though does not want a change, and will probably remember that conservative support for xenophobic voters lead to Turkeys failed EU membership process.
Guvernator said:
For a country of such strategic importance, the EU really could have done far more to be welcoming at the beginning of the millennium when they were probably about ready to join, instead they procrastinated and have probably lost that window of opportunity to make Turkey inot a strong ally rather than
an enemy.
Yup, fully agree. Problem *we* in the EU (you guys in the UK are still in it for while) now have is dealing with this mad man. Unfortunately and understandably, the UK won't help much. Before the Brexit vote a Turkish EU membership was a nice bogeyman, now it's reversal and seems to be an acceptable trade partner worth pandering to.an enemy.
Reggie really has a lot of power now. On his home turf he's removed all opposition. Proxy-wars set everything south of his border on fire so he is needed as a strong NATO partner. And no ending in sight, so more refugees that the EU does not want to accommodate but would rather have him stop at the border. And concerns about the economic climate forbid all thoughts of destabilizing the regime by hurting trade with them.
I'm afraid we are seeing another Saudi style problem rising. Wicked state and regime, but so entrenched that the best option is just to let them carry on.
Yep he has de-fanged the military, the only power in Turkey who might have been able to stop him, he has bought off or intimidated one of the 3 main parties and the other remaining one is rather ineffective and run buy an 80 year old incumbent who can barely speak but still refuses to step down.
He has his yes vote albeit by a very small majority and despite widespread protests and accusations of vote rigging, he has the money and power to push this through. The only realistic way I can see him being stopped right now is a gunman on a grassy knoll type scenario.
He has his yes vote albeit by a very small majority and despite widespread protests and accusations of vote rigging, he has the money and power to push this through. The only realistic way I can see him being stopped right now is a gunman on a grassy knoll type scenario.
Kolbenkopp and Guvernator thanks for the posts, yes you're spot on with your comments and observations.
I especially like the reference to the "little dick syndrome" and "inferiority complex" - I've noticed that here an I use the same terms when I see people in thisry doing stupid things and not taking too kindly to any sort of comment (constructive or otherwise), I have to admit I do enjoy winding-up the jackasses here just to see them make fools of themselves, doesn't take much to wind them up!
I especially like the reference to the "little dick syndrome" and "inferiority complex" - I've noticed that here an I use the same terms when I see people in this
ry doing stupid things and not taking too kindly to any sort of comment (constructive or otherwise), I have to admit I do enjoy winding-up the jackasses here just to see them make fools of themselves, doesn't take much to wind them up! I thought I would join the discussion.
A bit about myself, I was born and raised in Germany, and am living on the outskirts of Istanbul now for the past 2,5 years.
I am also a Dual Citizen.
Most of the points brought up are valid, the Turkish population has an inferiority complex and has found a person they can rally around, who says what they want to hear.
You have to give the man one thing, he knows how to draw interest and win over the people, at least the mass of them.
I can sort of understand some points brought up by both the people who voted yes and the one who voted no.
The ones who have voted yes bring up that Turkey has had the current electoral system for the last 90 years and has come nowhere... Yes maybe change was necessary, but it is debatable if the timing was good...
the Turkish (althought I am of Turkish descent and my parents are Turkish I think I will always be German) are "lazy" by default. It is very hard to explain and I am talking about the general public.
There seems to be a naivety to them, they easily believe what they are told without questioning. (Coca Cola is poisonous was spreading around here some years ago.... take that however you like)
Another problem is that the Turk has... lets say delusions of grandeur.
It seems that althought no one wants to wag a finger and actually do something instead of complaining, they also think they are entitled to the greatest things on earth.
I personally find it rather sad what all this has come to.
I understand the why people, who do not even live in Turkey voted in this Referandum, although IMHO they had absolutely no right to do so.
But
You can not live in democracy and freedom in Germany, England etc and then decide about the fate of others
all this has lead to is a man with a lot of power and no one to hold him accountable and a lot of hatred and mistrust from the European people again Turks who live amongst them.
The question is, for what?
A bit about myself, I was born and raised in Germany, and am living on the outskirts of Istanbul now for the past 2,5 years.
I am also a Dual Citizen.
Most of the points brought up are valid, the Turkish population has an inferiority complex and has found a person they can rally around, who says what they want to hear.
You have to give the man one thing, he knows how to draw interest and win over the people, at least the mass of them.
I can sort of understand some points brought up by both the people who voted yes and the one who voted no.
The ones who have voted yes bring up that Turkey has had the current electoral system for the last 90 years and has come nowhere... Yes maybe change was necessary, but it is debatable if the timing was good...
the Turkish (althought I am of Turkish descent and my parents are Turkish I think I will always be German) are "lazy" by default. It is very hard to explain and I am talking about the general public.
There seems to be a naivety to them, they easily believe what they are told without questioning. (Coca Cola is poisonous was spreading around here some years ago.... take that however you like)
Another problem is that the Turk has... lets say delusions of grandeur.
It seems that althought no one wants to wag a finger and actually do something instead of complaining, they also think they are entitled to the greatest things on earth.
I personally find it rather sad what all this has come to.
I understand the why people, who do not even live in Turkey voted in this Referandum, although IMHO they had absolutely no right to do so.
But
You can not live in democracy and freedom in Germany, England etc and then decide about the fate of others
all this has lead to is a man with a lot of power and no one to hold him accountable and a lot of hatred and mistrust from the European people again Turks who live amongst them.
The question is, for what?
tektas said:
I thought I would join the discussion.
A bit about myself, I was born and raised in Germany, and am living on the outskirts of Istanbul now for the past 2,5 years.
I am also a Dual Citizen.
Most of the points brought up are valid, the Turkish population has an inferiority complex and has found a person they can rally around, who says what they want to hear.
You have to give the man one thing, he knows how to draw interest and win over the people, at least the mass of them.
I can sort of understand some points brought up by both the people who voted yes and the one who voted no.
The ones who have voted yes bring up that Turkey has had the current electoral system for the last 90 years and has come nowhere... Yes maybe change was necessary, but it is debatable if the timing was good...
the Turkish (althought I am of Turkish descent and my parents are Turkish I think I will always be German) are "lazy" by default. It is very hard to explain and I am talking about the general public.
There seems to be a naivety to them, they easily believe what they are told without questioning. (Coca Cola is poisonous was spreading around here some years ago.... take that however you like)
Another problem is that the Turk has... lets say delusions of grandeur.
It seems that althought no one wants to wag a finger and actually do something instead of complaining, they also think they are entitled to the greatest things on earth.
I personally find it rather sad what all this has come to.
I understand the why people, who do not even live in Turkey voted in this Referandum, although IMHO they had absolutely no right to do so.
But
You can not live in democracy and freedom in Germany, England etc and then decide about the fate of others
all this has lead to is a man with a lot of power and no one to hold him accountable and a lot of hatred and mistrust from the European people again Turks who live amongst them.
The question is, for what?
Fascinating post, glad to see you loving Germany, for all the issues i don't like, it's a big beautiful country with (even though they wont admit it) a deep and interesting history that predates the 1930's. It's nice to see not all Turks in Europe are clamouring for the Ottoman empire 2.0.A bit about myself, I was born and raised in Germany, and am living on the outskirts of Istanbul now for the past 2,5 years.
I am also a Dual Citizen.
Most of the points brought up are valid, the Turkish population has an inferiority complex and has found a person they can rally around, who says what they want to hear.
You have to give the man one thing, he knows how to draw interest and win over the people, at least the mass of them.
I can sort of understand some points brought up by both the people who voted yes and the one who voted no.
The ones who have voted yes bring up that Turkey has had the current electoral system for the last 90 years and has come nowhere... Yes maybe change was necessary, but it is debatable if the timing was good...
the Turkish (althought I am of Turkish descent and my parents are Turkish I think I will always be German) are "lazy" by default. It is very hard to explain and I am talking about the general public.
There seems to be a naivety to them, they easily believe what they are told without questioning. (Coca Cola is poisonous was spreading around here some years ago.... take that however you like)
Another problem is that the Turk has... lets say delusions of grandeur.
It seems that althought no one wants to wag a finger and actually do something instead of complaining, they also think they are entitled to the greatest things on earth.
I personally find it rather sad what all this has come to.
I understand the why people, who do not even live in Turkey voted in this Referandum, although IMHO they had absolutely no right to do so.
But
You can not live in democracy and freedom in Germany, England etc and then decide about the fate of others
all this has lead to is a man with a lot of power and no one to hold him accountable and a lot of hatred and mistrust from the European people again Turks who live amongst them.
The question is, for what?
p1stonhead said:
Our very own full blown dictatorship with a massive army, right on Europe's border.Great.
The thing is I'm not sure what Europe could have done about it. Perhaps admitting Turkey into Europe around the start of the millennium might have staved this off although that would have probably created a few problems of it's own.
Erdogan arrived on the scene with almost impeccable timing and took full advantage of the Turkish populations weaknesses and divisions. He has carried out an almost perfect playbook of removing opposition, dividing and conquering, controlling of the media etc. He is also a very good public speaker, he makes the opposition look like amateurs so this is either rather raw talent or he has been given expert training. He really hasn't put a step wrong in getting to where he has so he is either a lot cleverer than he looks or he has some VERY clever advisers.
Personally I have some theories on just who might have been helping him along but that will probably get the PH conspiracy theory bashers out in force so I'll leave it there.
Erdogan arrived on the scene with almost impeccable timing and took full advantage of the Turkish populations weaknesses and divisions. He has carried out an almost perfect playbook of removing opposition, dividing and conquering, controlling of the media etc. He is also a very good public speaker, he makes the opposition look like amateurs so this is either rather raw talent or he has been given expert training. He really hasn't put a step wrong in getting to where he has so he is either a lot cleverer than he looks or he has some VERY clever advisers.
Personally I have some theories on just who might have been helping him along but that will probably get the PH conspiracy theory bashers out in force so I'll leave it there.
tektas said:
I thought I would join the discussion.
A bit about myself, I was born and raised in Germany, and am living on the outskirts of Istanbul now for the past 2,5 years.
I am also a Dual Citizen.
Most of the points brought up are valid, the Turkish population has an inferiority complex and has found a person they can rally around, who says what they want to hear.
You have to give the man one thing, he knows how to draw interest and win over the people, at least the mass of them.
I can sort of understand some points brought up by both the people who voted yes and the one who voted no.
The ones who have voted yes bring up that Turkey has had the current electoral system for the last 90 years and has come nowhere... Yes maybe change was necessary, but it is debatable if the timing was good...
the Turkish (althought I am of Turkish descent and my parents are Turkish I think I will always be German) are "lazy" by default. It is very hard to explain and I am talking about the general public.
There seems to be a naivety to them, they easily believe what they are told without questioning. (Coca Cola is poisonous was spreading around here some years ago.... take that however you like)
Another problem is that the Turk has... lets say delusions of grandeur.
It seems that althought no one wants to wag a finger and actually do something instead of complaining, they also think they are entitled to the greatest things on earth.
I personally find it rather sad what all this has come to.
I understand the why people, who do not even live in Turkey voted in this Referandum, although IMHO they had absolutely no right to do so.
But
You can not live in democracy and freedom in Germany, England etc and then decide about the fate of others
all this has lead to is a man with a lot of power and no one to hold him accountable and a lot of hatred and mistrust from the European people again Turks who live amongst them.
The question is, for what?
Tektas - great post. A bit about myself, I was born and raised in Germany, and am living on the outskirts of Istanbul now for the past 2,5 years.
I am also a Dual Citizen.
Most of the points brought up are valid, the Turkish population has an inferiority complex and has found a person they can rally around, who says what they want to hear.
You have to give the man one thing, he knows how to draw interest and win over the people, at least the mass of them.
I can sort of understand some points brought up by both the people who voted yes and the one who voted no.
The ones who have voted yes bring up that Turkey has had the current electoral system for the last 90 years and has come nowhere... Yes maybe change was necessary, but it is debatable if the timing was good...
the Turkish (althought I am of Turkish descent and my parents are Turkish I think I will always be German) are "lazy" by default. It is very hard to explain and I am talking about the general public.
There seems to be a naivety to them, they easily believe what they are told without questioning. (Coca Cola is poisonous was spreading around here some years ago.... take that however you like)
Another problem is that the Turk has... lets say delusions of grandeur.
It seems that althought no one wants to wag a finger and actually do something instead of complaining, they also think they are entitled to the greatest things on earth.
I personally find it rather sad what all this has come to.
I understand the why people, who do not even live in Turkey voted in this Referandum, although IMHO they had absolutely no right to do so.
But
You can not live in democracy and freedom in Germany, England etc and then decide about the fate of others
all this has lead to is a man with a lot of power and no one to hold him accountable and a lot of hatred and mistrust from the European people again Turks who live amongst them.
The question is, for what?
Nasilsin?
My wife's cousin has himself been living outside of Turkey for many years (in Romania) he has similar views to you although he was born here and lived here until he was about 15. My wife spent the best part of 10 years abroad, she loves her country but thinks like you do, hates the small mindedness and behaviour (I'm always getting in trouble for standing up to the egotistical w
kers in traffic, etc... who give the entire population a bad reputation - sorry to say!).And as you know the Turks love a conspiracy theory (like your Coca Cola example).
Feel free to ping me a pm anytime, we can catch up if you like I'm in Istanbul (unless I'm travelling for work).
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