scotland to reduce Drink Drive limit

[Nickgnome]

Rovinghawk said:

You seem to be talking about drunken lunatics rather than those relative moderates who would be caught between the new & old limits. Take the emotion out & look at the facts.

The drunken lunatics often but not always just kill themselves. Its the ones that think they are ok and may be under the current limit but still do not react quickly when a situation arises and a car crash happens.

[Rovinghawk]

Edinburger said:

LOL very good. I meant drive, obviously.

You obviously believe in zero tolerance. I believe that any system has to have tolerances to allow for an imperfect world.

I question how much of an effect the lowering of this limit will have based on crash/consumption records.

[Edinburger]

Rovinghawk said:

Edinburger said:

LOL very good. I meant drive, obviously.

You obviously believe in zero tolerance. I believe that any system has to have tolerances to allow for an imperfect world.

I question how much of an effect the lowering of this limit will have based on crash/consumption records.

I dont believe in zero tolerance. There has to be a small tolerance for alcohol in food, medicines, etc. The current Scottish level feels about right to me. I never ever understood people who would have one and then drive.

[NomduJour]

Edinburger said:

I never ever understood people who would have one and then drive.

What about having seven or eight and crossing the road outside the pub, or negotiating the stairs at home? Alcohol-related accidents cost the NHS a fortune, so surely the progressive Scots should be legislating to ensure that a similar limit also applies outside of cars?

After all, just because a small minority are incapable of taking responsibility for themselves doesn’t mean that the state shouldn’t also control and regulate those who are.

[Nickgnome]

NomduJour said:

What about having seven or eight and crossing the road outside the pub, or negotiating the stairs at home? Alcohol-related accidents cost the NHS a fortune, so surely the progressive Scots should be legislating to ensure that a similar limit also applies outside of cars?

After all, just because a small minority are incapable of taking responsibility for themselves doesn’t mean that the state shouldn’t also control and regulate those who are.

What-about-ism

Bad + bad = ok Wierd

Still find it odd that you are happy to have your children in the car with you after you have had a drink or two.

[Edinburger]

NomduJour said:

Edinburger said:

I never ever understood people who would have one and then drive.

What about having seven or eight and crossing the road outside the pub, or negotiating the stairs at home? Alcohol-related accidents cost the NHS a fortune, so surely the progressive Scots should be legislating to ensure that a similar limit also applies outside of cars?

After all, just because a small minority are incapable of taking responsibility for themselves doesn’t mean that the state shouldn’t also control and regulate those who are.

To be fair, you do have a point. But you're being faceitious.

Do you think it's perfectly acceptable for society to turn a blind eye to people having seven or eight and then driving their car?

[Rovinghawk]

Edinburger said:

With respect, I think it's you who should look at the facts.

Let's look at the facts together: what percentage (or absolute number) of killed/seriously injured have as a primary or major causation a driver who has consumed between the old limit and the new one?

This is the presumable motivation for the change unless you have a better explanation. What effect will it have?

I say it's a tiny number, statistically insignificant (spoken as a cold-blooded engineer rather than from an emotive viewpoint). Do you think that's a huge number necessitating action that will potentially cause hardship to many who were previously law-abiding?

Leave out any emotional response & stick to facts & figures, if you will.

[Rovinghawk]

Edinburger said:

Do you think it's perfectly acceptable for society to turn a blind eye to people having seven or eight and then driving their car?

That's not what's being debated in this thread.

[Edinburger]

Rovinghawk said:

Edinburger said:

With respect, I think it's you who should look at the facts.

Let's look at the facts together: what percentage (or absolute number) of killed/seriously injured have as a primary or major causation a driver who has consumed between the old limit and the new one?

This is the presumable motivation for the change unless you have a better explanation. What effect will it have?

I say it's a tiny number, statistically insignificant (spoken as a cold-blooded engineer rather than from an emotive viewpoint). Do you think that's a huge number necessitating action that will potentially cause hardship to many who were previously law-abiding?

Leave out any emotional response & stick to facts & figures, if you will.

Hang on a second, it's not the reduced limit which "will potentially cause hardship to many who were previously law-abiding". You should not drink alcohol if you're going to drive a car. That's it. It really is as simple as that.

I'd suggest the timescale of the new limit is too short to do a meaningful comparision.

Would you accept an operation from a surgeon who's had a pint or two? Would you get on a plane after the pilot has had a pint or two? if not, why not?

[Edinburger]

Rovinghawk said:

Edinburger said:

Do you think it's perfectly acceptable for society to turn a blind eye to people having seven or eight and then driving their car?

That's not what's being debated in this thread.

I know it's not.

Please stop selectively quoting.

[hidetheelephants]

Edinburger said:

Nickgnome said:

Edinburger said:

Here's the drink drive limits across Europe.



Still think the "Scottish law" is "bks"?

No I think it is a good and pragmatic start.

I didn’t think ‘if you want a drink don’t drive’. was such an issue to some.

If it wasn’t for the other people caught up in the literal car crash it would be a sensible Darwinian approach to allow those drivers to drink as much as they thought they were capable of taking.

I know. I've never ever seen the point in "having one". If I'm drinking, I'm drinking. Just having one or two is pointless, to me.

Nickgnome said:

Unfortunately I suspect some on here think it perfectly acceptable to have a pint or two over lunch with wife and Kids and then drive home.

It is a great shame they think so much of themselves and so little of their family and the family of others when so doing.

A pint, yes; two, no. I pity those who do not have the selfcontrol to be able to have a pint and then leave and resent the state deciding that I should not have the option despite there being at best equivocal evidence that it will make scottish roads safer. The new stats confirm my unconscious bias.

[Edinburger]

hidetheelephants said:

Edinburger said:

Nickgnome said:

Edinburger said:

Here's the drink drive limits across Europe.



Still think the "Scottish law" is "bks"?

No I think it is a good and pragmatic start.

I didn’t think ‘if you want a drink don’t drive’. was such an issue to some.

If it wasn’t for the other people caught up in the literal car crash it would be a sensible Darwinian approach to allow those drivers to drink as much as they thought they were capable of taking.

I know. I've never ever seen the point in "having one". If I'm drinking, I'm drinking. Just having one or two is pointless, to me.

Nickgnome said:

Unfortunately I suspect some on here think it perfectly acceptable to have a pint or two over lunch with wife and Kids and then drive home.

It is a great shame they think so much of themselves and so little of their family and the family of others when so doing.

A pint, yes; two, no. I pity those who do not have the selfcontrol to be able to have a pint and then leave and resent the state deciding that I should not have the option despite there being at best equivocal evidence that it will make scottish roads safer. The new stats confirm my unconscious bias.

If you have a pint right now. And another at 8pm. Then one at 10.30pm. And another at 12 noon. And if I do the same. And youyr best mate does and your wife does.

Then will we all be absolutely fine to drive every time?

And would you put your kids in the car with us?

If not, why not?

[hidetheelephants]

Nanny knows best.

[NomduJour]

Nickgnome said:

Still find it odd that you are happy to have your children in the car with you after you have had a drink or two.

I haven’t said that. I find it odd that you are so keen to support interference in and regulation of other people’s lives - particularly where the effect of a certain restriction provides no measurable benefit to anyone.

Maybe the world (and Scotland, even) would be a better place if all that nanny state control freakery was focused towards something useful to society, instead of an insidious attempt to turn responsible adults into criminals.

[Edinburger]

hidetheelephants said:

Nanny knows best.

Maybe we should remove the limit and tell everyone it's a free for all. Drink as much as you want and drive as far as you want without fear of repurcussion.

[Edinburger]

NomduJour said:

Nickgnome said:

Still find it odd that you are happy to have your children in the car with you after you have had a drink or two.

I haven’t said that. I find it odd that you are so keen to support interference in and regulation of other people’s lives - particularly where the effect of a certain restriction provides no measurable benefit to anyone.

Maybe the world (and Scotland, even) would be a better place if all that nanny state control freakery was focused towards something useful to society, instead of an insidious attempt to turn responsible adults into criminals.

Yeah, I mean why have any laws and rules interfering in and regulating people's lives. We need anarchy. That's the way forward

[Rovinghawk]

Edinburger said:

Rovinghawk said:

Edinburger said:

Do you think it's perfectly acceptable for society to turn a blind eye to people having seven or eight and then driving their car?

That's not what's being debated in this thread.

I know it's not.

Please stop selectively quoting.

You said it- I don't see why I can't query your words.

I'll ask again, though- what percentage or absolute number of deaths or serious injuries are caused significantly by drivers in the band affected the the lowering of the limit?

I say it's tiny & make the change in the law excessive & unreasonable. Please show to the contrary.

[bodhi]

Edinburger said:

If you have a pint right now. And another at 8pm. Then one at 10.30pm. And another at 12 noon. And if I do the same. And youyr best mate does and your wife does.

Then will we all be absolutely fine to drive every time?

And would you put your kids in the car with us?

If not, why not?

I'll answer that one. Given that 45 minutes after you have a pint your liver will start to process one unit every hour. If we talk a pint of Tennent's we have 2.1 units per drink. The UK limit is 5 units (1 unit results in a blood reading of 15mg), and the Scottish limit is 3.

So a single pint of normal lager will keep you under the limit, and is gone 2 - 3 hours later. So at no point would any of the participants be breaking the law, hence I wouldn't have an issue letting my family travel with them. Unless it was a pint of cider, in which case no way.

[AJL308]

Edinburger said:

BlackLabel said:

Reduced drink-drive limit in Scotland has no impact on cutting road accidents.






https://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/...

Are you suggesting the reduction was a mistake.

No one should be behind the wheel under the influence of any alcohol. End of.

Surely if lowering the limit had "no effect" then it is reasonable to conclude that no one was "under the influence" of anything?

[AJL308]

Edinburger said:

Not-The-Messiah said:

Nickgnome said:

Let’s hope we can follow Scotland’s lead and extend to England as well in the near future.

Keep it simple. If you want a drink do not drive.

Why? you can see its doesn't make any difference.

All it does is criminalize people for no productive outcome or is the productivity of it just making idealistic child like minded people like you feel nice inside?

Why do you think should drink and drive?

Why do you think Scotland's limit is now in line with most of the rest of Europe?

Question: would you let your kids go in the car with someone who has had a pint or two?

Why do think that someone should criminalised for something shown to have no adverse effect on them?

Because politicians get a warm fuzzy feeling from "doing something".

I don't have kids.