Can we talk about Sweden for a bit?

[Finlandia]

[Looket]

I said there was change in the air... well, this just in: http://www.expressen.se/ledare/ann-charlotte-marte...

She has been what you would call a 'vocal opponent' (note: she writes for Expressen which as per OP worked with Researchgruppen in 2013) of anything remotely 'racist'. Now, she has apparently seen the light. This is completely unheard of, there have been rumblings of sobriety in the last few months but this is something quite special. I'm genuinely stunned.

The title is 'I am the opinion corridor', and it is basically a letter of apology to the Swedish public. She realises she has been an integral part of a movement that has severely and quite possibly permanently eroded a large part of the basis of a functioning democracy.

Google translate it. It's not perfect but it'll do donkey, it'll do.

Edited by Looket on Friday 13th February 17:43

[Foppo]

Are you saying that any opinion about immigration is not allowed in Sweden? I would say balks to that get out if you feel uncomfortable.

[Looket]

Foppo said:

Are you saying that any opinion about immigration is not allowed in Sweden? I would say balks to that get out if you feel uncomfortable.

Of course not. You're perfectly free to express the right opinion.

---

The debates about immigration have been largely confined to anonymous forums such as Flashback. People don't want to air opinions in public - although perfectly sane and acceptable in any other country in the world - because of the risk of a.) becoming a social pariah, b.) losing their jobs and c.) threats of violence by various leftist groups. The Sweden Democrats got 13% in the general election after years of persecution and the debate seems to have started to regain some sense of sanity after that. But it's all very infected still.

Personally, I'm not uncomfortable. I'm fking angry.

[Finlandia]

Looket said:

I said there was change in the air...

It's a start, still got a very long way to go, a very, very long way. We need to halt everything, sort the domestic issues from the ground up, build the country again, I don't see that happening, too many high up with very different views.

Foppo said:

Are you saying that any opinion about immigration is not allowed in Sweden? I would say balks to that get out if you feel uncomfortable.

No, opinion is allowed, as long as it conforms to the official one. Who would get out, the ones who do not share the same thoughts as the thought-maffia?

[Dr Jekyll]

trashbat said:

don't know for sure, but that seems like it would be absolutely nothing in the UK or especially US, such that I almost have to ask myself, 'what's the scandal?'. But then, and almost certainly I'm at odds with the majority PH view, I think it's brilliant that it is a scandal, and I admire a country whose politic and values makes it one.

Sounds like basically the same issue that brought Conrad Black down.

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

It's a start, still got a very long way to go, a very, very long way. We need to halt everything, sort the domestic issues from the ground up, build the country again, I don't see that happening, too many high up with very different views.

I'd agree. The only viable way out that I can see is that as a country, we just start over from scratch. Where's the restart button?

Without wishing to don my tinfoil hat, I have a fairly strong suspicion that's the masterplan as penned my messrs Reinfeldt and Borg; arm the left of this country with their own bullcrap, and they'll somehow manage to shoot themselves. The welfare state in its current form simply cannot continue, and I'm quite certain we'll be seeing the end of the famous 'Swedish way' soon enough. Sweden 2.0 here we come!

[Finlandia]

Looket said:

I'd agree. The only viable way out that I can see is that as a country, we just start over from scratch. Where's the restart button?

Without wishing to don my tinfoil hat, I have a fairly strong suspicion that's the masterplan as penned my messrs Reinfeldt and Borg; arm the left of this country with their own bullcrap, and they'll somehow manage to shoot themselves. The welfare state in its current form simply cannot continue, and I'm quite certain we'll be seeing the end of the famous 'Swedish way' soon enough. Sweden 2.0 here we come!

I don't know what to think of Reinfeldt, he seemed good from the start but somewhere along the line he lost the plot. Remember the interview with the Danish Politiken, where he said:

– Jag flyger ofta över den svenska landsbygden. Det finns oändliga fält och skogar. Den som hävdar att landet är fullt måste visa var det är fullt, säger han till tidningen.

- I often fly over the Swedish countryside. There are endless fields and forests. Anyone who claims that the country is full must show where it's full, he tells the magazine.

[Finlandia]

Apparently arrests have been made at Expressens HQ in Stockholm, right wing and nazi groups are said to have plotted some sort of attack tied of the inspection of online forums.

[littlegreenfairy]

Stockholm had many beggars that seemed very well organised, of similar origin, used similar language and tactics and were in the same places each day. One early morning there was a group of them at a team stop being talked to by a chap who seemed to be organising them. Is this something normal for the city or has my ingestion of Nordic noir made me a highly suspicious individual?

[hidetheelephants]

trashbat said:

don't know for sure, but that seems like it would be absolutely nothing in the UK or especially US, such that I almost have to ask myself, 'what's the scandal?'. But then, and almost certainly I'm at odds with the majority PH view, I think it's brilliant that it is a scandal, and I admire a country whose politic and values makes it one.

It depends entirely on what the corporate's rules are for using the jet; were they following the rules? If not then P45 time, but if yes then carry on carrying on; flying a jet to fetch a wallet is pretty profligate though. People have been fired for similar junketing in US and UK firms.

iphonedyou said:

I was on a ski lift with a junior partner the other day - bear with me - and he mentioned he'd been talking with an associate about his self assessment. Said associate, within minutes, had reverse engineered the calculation to determine income and was haughty for two days as a result.

So you're not wrong.

Presumably a partner will be getting a portion of their income from souces other than pay and may be deferred, so the associate may have deluded him/herself.

[Finlandia]

littlegreenfairy said:

Stockholm had many beggars that seemed very well organised, of similar origin, used similar language and tactics and were in the same places each day. One early morning there was a group of them at a team stop being talked to by a chap who seemed to be organising them. Is this something normal for the city or has my ingestion of Nordic noir made me a highly suspicious individual?

They are all over the country, at every shop. Unfortunately your views would have you branded as a heartless racist or a neo-nazi.

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

I don't know what to think of Reinfeldt, he seemed good from the start but somewhere along the line he lost the plot. Remember the interview with the Danish Politiken, where he said:

– Jag flyger ofta över den svenska landsbygden. Det finns oändliga fält och skogar. Den som hävdar att landet är fullt måste visa var det är fullt, säger han till tidningen.

- I often fly over the Swedish countryside. There are endless fields and forests. Anyone who claims that the country is full must show where it's full, he tells the magazine.

In my opinion, Reinfeldt is perhaps the 'best' Swedish politician in modern history in so much that he knew exactly how to manipulate the press and the public into submission. It's no secret that in his youth he was a fairly staunch libertarian of some description, and my experience in the matter (I'm one) tells me that such views don't tend to change too much with age. Certainly not to the extent that his would've had to have done.

Instead, I'm fairly certain that he made the correct analysis that Sweden will never become 'less socialist' by general election. The overwhelming majority of people will simply never vote for anything but a lukewarm version of social democracy of some kind.

Solution?

Get into power, lower taxes, make sure Joe Public won't ever accept a return to 60%+ tax rates, and lastly the coup de grace itself - permanently and irreversibly overwhelm the welfare system by using the leftist rhetoric against itself. Done.

Anyway, my take on comments such as the above are that they are just carefully worded ploys to twist the already absurd debate climate up a notch. Who could possibly object to such ludicrous commentary without somehow exposing themselves as racists? And so it is digested and lastly accepted without much ado - and thus the public discourse climbs even further up the mental scale on its course to inevitable self-destruction.

Edited by Looket on Friday 13th February 19:35

[Finlandia]

Maybe, but he was playing high stakes, ultimately ruining the country and losing the election.

[GuitarTech]

Finlandia said:

BrabusMog said:

OK, whilst we are slightly on the subject, why do Swedes list apartments as "rooms"? I thought my girlfriend had a 3 bedroom apartment until the first time I arrived and realised that one of the rooms actually meant living room! I know it's not a big deal, I just find it bizarre.

A studio apartment in the UK is a one room apartment in Sweden, a one bedroom is two room and so on, why, I have no idea, I was just as perplexed when I first moved to UK.

Here in Germany too: we have a " three room " flat, which translates as two bedrooms and a living room ( the kitchen and dining area never seem to count )...

[QuantumTokoloshi]

Finlandia said:

The smaller parties, FP and KD have been talking about new immigration policies, but they have pretty much been trampled down in the racist gutter too, anyone daring to suggest something's wrong with the immigration/integration is silenced. And none of the bigger parties seem interested in going down that route, except for the one party that is very close to being the second biggest in Sweden...

That sounds remarkably familiar to what is taking place in the UK.

[Looket]

Finlandia said:

Maybe, but he was playing high stakes, ultimately ruining the country and losing the election.

Well personally I hate the barsteward for what he's done to the country but credit where credit is due - he knew exactly which buttons to push to get the media and general discourse where he wanted it. I don't think anyone can possibly say something like that and actually mean it other than as a twisted means of buying time in an even more twisted environment.

In my mind, he managed to turn the media into a subversive instrument in so much that it has almost single-handedly divided the country into incredibly staunch pro- and anti-immigration camps with very little overlap but a lot of antagonism between them. The uniquely Nordic brand of consensus seeking common discourse is nowhere to be seen and I for one am sure it's a thing of the past in Sweden. THAT is what has facilitated the 'Swedish model' of high taxes and a large welfare state, but what we see now is that people simply don't want to contribute. They have grown used to lower taxes and weary of a society that in one way or another offends them; men tired of feminazis, women tired of patriarchal hierarchies, people tired of immigrants, people tired of racists. Everyone has one reason or another to feel strongly dissenting of the 'powers that be' whatever they may be. Freddy says good luck trying to return to the ultra-high tax regime in that environment - it simply doesn't have the support of the common man anymore. Add to that a potential property bubble disaster and a welfare system that is quickly crumbling under its own weight and the only outcome is a complete reboot that'll boil down to one thing and one thing only: no mo' money baby. The welfare state is a thing of the past no matter how you look at it.

I struggle to find other even remotely logical explanations to most of his lunacy - barring actual lunacy. Regardless, I doubt in his own mind he 'lost' anything. Given the December agreement he has just armed the left with the very gun they'll use to commit their own suicide. It doesn't matter if his own party gets annihilated in the process, as it'll be superfluous in a world where a minimal government (by today's standards) is the only realistic option anyway.

Edited by Looket on Sunday 15th February 11:26

[Finlandia]

QuantumTokoloshi said:

That sounds remarkably familiar to what is taking place in the UK.

On the party political scene perhaps, but in the everyday life, Swedes are far worse off than the Britons.
In the UK you can still voice your opinion rather freely, in the pub, with friends and family, even more officially if you so wish, while the Swedish model is more akin to the feared DDR way, keep your thoughts to yourself, you never know who is listening, you may get branded as a right wing nutter/neo-nazi.

Read about the opinion corridor mentioned earlier by the OP, in short, the establishment (journalists, politicians, etc) created a 'corridor', or a road if you like, a road with no turn offs or junctions. On this road your opinions and thoughts are free to travel, but you cannot leave the road or you will get fined. And as with all roads, the further ahead you look the narrower the road seems.

In Sweden this road is now single lane, with stone walls on each side.

[Finlandia]

Looket said:

The welfare state is a thing of the past no matter how you look at it.

You have a point there, and definitely on the quoted bit.
Was that the plan from the very beginning, or was it something that grew in his mind as the axe was swaying from the leftist camps, remember the difficulties to form a government and appoint ministers during the first period. Later on the local councils (the left leaning ones) did everything they could to hinder and mess up the new legislations brought in.

As an explanation to our non Swedish fellows, during the left governments the unemployment was swept under the carpet and forgotten about with the help of early/disability retirement plans (we are talking about 30 year olds retired) and adult studying (40-50 year olds in school), while the right governments forced severely ill people back to work (much to do with the left leaning local authorities interpreting the laws in their own way) and created the dreaded Fas3, which is modern day slavery for the long term unemployed.
All to hide the unpleasant truth.

I'm pretty sure the above hasn't been broadcasted openly in the news around the world.

[skyrover]

Finlandia said:

I'm pretty sure the above hasn't been broadcasted openly in the news around the world.

How dare anyone tell the truth about Sweden... hallowed socialist utopia that it is.