HS2, whats the current status ?

HS2, whats the current status ?

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The Li-ion King

3,766 posts

63 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Talksteer said:
b0rk said:
glazbagun said:
Ministers knew it was over budget before they signed it off-

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-49450297

Its like they saw the mess Edinburgh made of its trams and thought they'd scale it up.
Funny thing about Edinburgh trams is whilst the scheme will probably never repay the original capital cost. The system very quickly reached operational profitability and is now due to demand about to be extended to incorporate the never built parts of phase 1a. HS2 is I'd suspect a similar project in that government can never expect to see a return on the capital but demand and usage will quickly see the scheme cover operating costs.
That's a bit like saying that a Lamborghini is affordable if only someone else would pay the capital costs.....
Can't they let the Lamborghini's MOT run out and then park it for a bit?

Boris Johnson won't can the project, half of Camden Borough is now a construction site, roads will collapse from all the tunnels they've built. End result may be a slightly better looking Euston Station. They are struggling with Crossrail as well. HS2 is only saving 20 minutes off journey time to Brum, so don't see the point...

rover 623gsi

5,230 posts

160 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
it's not about speed, it's about capacity

passenger numbers are increasing all the time and there is no spare capacity left on nearly all the main networks and many of smaller networks

you can't run faster trains - because the tracks are full up
you can't run more trains - because the tracks are full up
you can't run longer trains - because the tracks are full up

the only way to create capacity is build more tracks and you either do that by building alongside existing lines or by building new ones.

Or, you do nothing and allow the trains to become even more overcrowded and unreliable - which has an ongoing negative impact on the economy

Yertis

18,016 posts

265 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
rover 623gsi said:
it's not about speed, it's about capacity

passenger numbers are increasing all the time and there is no spare capacity left on nearly all the main networks and many of smaller networks

you can't run faster trains - because the tracks are full up
you can't run more trains - because the tracks are full up
you can't run longer trains - because the tracks are full up

the only way to create capacity is build more tracks and you either do that by building alongside existing lines or by building new ones.

Or, you do nothing and allow the trains to become even more overcrowded and unreliable - which has an ongoing negative impact on the economy
I agree with all that. Remind me why they didn’t just reopen/upgrade the Great Central and Midland routes? Seems to me there is plenty of latent capacity in existing disused lines, given a bit of re-jigging to add coherence (and a fair bit of compulsory purchase).

Amateurish

7,697 posts

221 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Yertis said:
I agree with all that. Remind me why they didn’t just reopen/upgrade the Great Central and Midland routes? Seems to me there is plenty of latent capacity in existing disused lines, given a bit of re-jigging to add coherence (and a fair bit of compulsory purchase).
Which bits of the Great Central? It does follow the alignment in Buckinghamshire.

Digga

40,206 posts

282 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Amateurish said:
Yertis said:
I agree with all that. Remind me why they didn’t just reopen/upgrade the Great Central and Midland routes? Seems to me there is plenty of latent capacity in existing disused lines, given a bit of re-jigging to add coherence (and a fair bit of compulsory purchase).
Which bits of the Great Central? It does follow the alignment in Buckinghamshire.
Very good video on the Midlands Rail Hub freight project here: https://twitter.com/MidsConnect/status/11811689451...

Yertis

18,016 posts

265 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Amateurish said:
Which bits of the Great Central? It does follow the alignment in Buckinghamshire.
Basically all the other bits to points North. It was built as a through route to Paris, and scaled and aligned accordingly. I'm not saying it wold be the fastest route, or indeed that any of the other closed routes would be 'fast' but as has been said, we don't need more speed, we need capacity.

Amateurish

7,697 posts

221 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Yertis said:
Basically all the other bits to points North. It was built as a through route to Paris, and scaled and aligned accordingly. I'm not saying it wold be the fastest route, or indeed that any of the other closed routes would be 'fast' but as has been said, we don't need more speed, we need capacity.
So miss out Birmingham and go through the middle of Leicester, Sheffield and Nottingham?

You'd still need the new line from Euston to Calvert, which is presumably the expensive bit

popeyewhite

19,622 posts

119 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Amateurish said:
Yertis said:
Basically all the other bits to points North. It was built as a through route to Paris, and scaled and aligned accordingly. I'm not saying it wold be the fastest route, or indeed that any of the other closed routes would be 'fast' but as has been said, we don't need more speed, we need capacity.
So miss out Birmingham and go through the middle of Leicester, Sheffield and Nottingham?

You'd still need the new line from Euston to Calvert, which is presumably the expensive bit
The collateral damage and cost would be much more limited than HS2 surely?

rover 623gsi

5,230 posts

160 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
popeyewhite said:
The collateral damage and cost would be much more limited than HS2 surely?
what makes you say that?

rover 623gsi

5,230 posts

160 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
https://www.citymetric.com/transport/no-great-cent...

No, the Great Central Main Line is not an adequate alternative to HS2

.......

For a start, the Great Central route would miss out two of the four key HS2 cities, Leeds and Birmingham. It would thus not fulfil one of the key purposes of HS2 – relieving the West Coast Main Line. Instead it would increase capacity on the Midland Main Line, probably the least important of the three north-south mainlines – something reflected in the fact that it still hasn't been electrified. (Cheers, Chris. No, we're not going to stop mentioning you, even though you've lost your job. Sorry.)

Also, why go to the trouble of building a new high-speed railway that misses out the UK's second city (Birmingham) and one of its fastest-growing (Leeds)? Instead, we get Rugby, Leicester, Nottingham, and Sheffield. These places are important – and desperately need better transport links – but it seems ridiculous to suggest that they are more important than Leeds and Birmingham.

HS2 will be faster, too. Whilst trains tend to dominate the market share for fast journeys when the journey itself takes less than 2hr30, only a few services – between London and Manchester, for example – are already fast enough to ensure a dominant market share. There is immense potential for onward journeys to Newcastle, Carlisle, Glasgow, and Edinburgh – places from which train travel to London and Birmingham does take longer than 2hr30. (Indeed, it takes longer to get to Birmingham from Newcastle than it does to get to London.)

HS2 services, using the HS2-only route to Manchester or Leeds and then moving onto classic sections of the rail network, will deliver real journey time reductions to these places, making rail travel more attractive for people living in the north-east, north-west, and Scotland. If we're building a whole new line, we might as well build it properly.

The Great Central would also still require expensive tunnelling beneath Nottingham and Leicester. In Leicester, almost all of the trackbed has been built on; in Nottingham, it's been taken over by trams. In Sheffield, things are simpler, but the route is also safeguarded for potential tram extensions. In this way, the Great Central route could in fact damage local transport.

.....

P5BNij

15,764 posts

105 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
Amateurish said:
Yertis said:
I agree with all that. Remind me why they didn’t just reopen/upgrade the Great Central and Midland routes? Seems to me there is plenty of latent capacity in existing disused lines, given a bit of re-jigging to add coherence (and a fair bit of compulsory purchase).
Which bits of the Great Central? It does follow the alignment in Buckinghamshire.
We're lucky we even still have the Midland route, BR wanted to close it south of Leicester in '66! The idea at the time was to electrify the branch from Leicester to Rugby and run all the Midland traffic from Sheffield and Manchester into Euston, if this had been the case the capacity on the WCML would have been full decades ago. Part of the four track section south of Kettering was reduced to three tracks in the '80s, it's all being put back in now due to demand for pathing of increasing passenger and freight services on the route, even so it still won't be enough capacity in the long run - which reinforces the need for HS2 now.

The GC route should never have been closed, even as a freight only route with all of the stations south of Rugby closed it would be a godsend now, keeping some of the slower traffic away from the GW northern route via Oxford, the Midland and WCML routes. Labour promised not to close it in their '64 election campaign but broke that promise in '66 when Barbara Castle cut it off south of Rugby, then the remaining 'stub' to Nottingham was closed in '69.

bucksmanuk

2,311 posts

169 months

Tuesday 8th October 2019
quotequote all
I wish they would call it the correct name for what its intended purpose is - HC2, High Capacity 2 and adapt accordingly.

Building a new railway line through the UK countryside was always going to upset someone somewhere. We aren’t France. Population density of France is 104/km^2. Germany is 232. The UK is 259, and England is at 424. The space isn’t available compared to France and Germany for high speed railway lines, 200 mph+, which need to be kept level, flat and with no tight bends, and 2 fingers to a few stroppy locals. There are towns in the way all the way out of London into the Chilterns and into the outskirts of Birmingham.

HS2 is to be no more than 750 metres from my house in Aylesbury. Will I hear it? I’ve no idea, I suspect so. There are exploratory works going on all the around the town and outside Great Missenden. It appears its going ahead if the amount of mess is anything to go by.

The plans for Aylesbury’s expansion, which can be found online, involve filling in the bit between the current house boundary and the HS2 line with more houses. This adds about 25% to the size of the town. The other construction areas add another 25% to the size of the town taking the Aylesbury population to about 100,000 in about 12-15 years. Therefore, a substantial town will exist right next to the HS2 line, but no station for it is being built. To have more stations involves slowing the train down, making the case for high speed less valid. Getting into London on the trains today in peak times is manic. Halfway in and all new passengers are standing. I asked the local councillors where all these extra 8-10,000 people were going to work, no new serious infrastructure is being built to cope with it. No decent response. The only new infrastructure there will be is HS2, which doesn’t stop at the town. The hope is that they would work from home, so why would they move to Aylesbury and then work from home? If that’s the case, WTF is the council doing building more houses then?

For an Aylesbury local (there’s going to be thousands of us) to use HS2 would involve going into London to catch the HS2 train and then about 75 minutes later whizzing past our own houses to go north to Birmingham and beyond. The northern bit, past Manchester now looks as if it may be in doubt.
No doubt other towns close to the route will have the same issue. Banbury, Brackley, Leamington Spa, Kenilworth being other examples. I see a lack of joined up thinking here.

If people lived close to the railway terminals at both ends, then the saving in journey time may make it a good call, but how many people do that? Greater London is pretty much full in terms of population density, (4,542/km^2) so not much new building is going to happen to make the most of that. Most of us will have to use other transport means to get to the terminal and get on the train. At the end of their journey, they have the same issue all over again. So, although 21(?) minutes is saved between London and Birmingham, in say 1 hr, 15, the total journey time from door to door may well be 4 hours. Saving 21 minutes in 4 hours and it’s costing how much of a heavy premium? I don’t think many would pay for that. It’s the same for flying to Paris from Heathrow. The flight is 70 minutes, but it takes me 3 hours from my front door to the gate, and I’m not on the aircraft yet.

So, if they built another railway line from London to Birmingham and beyond, but make it like what we have now, another WCML/ECML, there would less need for perfectly straight lines, huge embankments, deep cuttings etc… build some stations linking up the aforesaid towns, rolling stock and infrastructure is almost straight from the catalogue. Less energy required for the train, lots of people can use it. It’s a winner….

Or the obvious one, let’s get away from this London-centric mindset and build a railway line between Oxford and Cambridge, and have a huge high-tech corridor. You could join up Bicester, Milton Keynes and Bedford etc…

Just some thoughts....


anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
bucksmanuk said:
I wish they would call it the correct name for what its intended purpose is - HC2, High Capacity 2 and adapt accordingly.

Building a new railway line through the UK countryside was always going to upset someone somewhere. We aren’t France. Population density of France is 104/km^2. Germany is 232. The UK is 259, and England is at 424. The space isn’t available compared to France and Germany for high speed railway lines, 200 mph+, which need to be kept level, flat and with no tight bends, and 2 fingers to a few stroppy locals. There are towns in the way all the way out of London into the Chilterns and into the outskirts of Birmingham.

HS2 is to be no more than 750 metres from my house in Aylesbury. Will I hear it? I’ve no idea, I suspect so. There are exploratory works going on all the around the town and outside Great Missenden. It appears its going ahead if the amount of mess is anything to go by.

The plans for Aylesbury’s expansion, which can be found online, involve filling in the bit between the current house boundary and the HS2 line with more houses. This adds about 25% to the size of the town. The other construction areas add another 25% to the size of the town taking the Aylesbury population to about 100,000 in about 12-15 years. Therefore, a substantial town will exist right next to the HS2 line, but no station for it is being built. To have more stations involves slowing the train down, making the case for high speed less valid. Getting into London on the trains today in peak times is manic. Halfway in and all new passengers are standing. I asked the local councillors where all these extra 8-10,000 people were going to work, no new serious infrastructure is being built to cope with it. No decent response. The only new infrastructure there will be is HS2, which doesn’t stop at the town. The hope is that they would work from home, so why would they move to Aylesbury and then work from home? If that’s the case, WTF is the council doing building more houses then?

For an Aylesbury local (there’s going to be thousands of us) to use HS2 would involve going into London to catch the HS2 train and then about 75 minutes later whizzing past our own houses to go north to Birmingham and beyond. The northern bit, past Manchester now looks as if it may be in doubt.
No doubt other towns close to the route will have the same issue. Banbury, Brackley, Leamington Spa, Kenilworth being other examples. I see a lack of joined up thinking here.

If people lived close to the railway terminals at both ends, then the saving in journey time may make it a good call, but how many people do that? Greater London is pretty much full in terms of population density, (4,542/km^2) so not much new building is going to happen to make the most of that. Most of us will have to use other transport means to get to the terminal and get on the train. At the end of their journey, they have the same issue all over again. So, although 21(?) minutes is saved between London and Birmingham, in say 1 hr, 15, the total journey time from door to door may well be 4 hours. Saving 21 minutes in 4 hours and it’s costing how much of a heavy premium? I don’t think many would pay for that. It’s the same for flying to Paris from Heathrow. The flight is 70 minutes, but it takes me 3 hours from my front door to the gate, and I’m not on the aircraft yet.

So, if they built another railway line from London to Birmingham and beyond, but make it like what we have now, another WCML/ECML, there would less need for perfectly straight lines, huge embankments, deep cuttings etc… build some stations linking up the aforesaid towns, rolling stock and infrastructure is almost straight from the catalogue. Less energy required for the train, lots of people can use it. It’s a winner….

Or the obvious one, let’s get away from this London-centric mindset and build a railway line between Oxford and Cambridge, and have a huge high-tech corridor. You could join up Bicester, Milton Keynes and Bedford etc…

Just some thoughts....
Good idea on the Oxford - Cambridge line revival. I thought something was planned?

Regarding HS2, wouldn’t you just trek across to Milton Keynes (or even Leighton Buzzard) to get an existing service to Birmingham rather than go into London and out again?

Played a shonky golf course in Aylesbury last year - staff said it was going to have HS2 right through the middle. Can’t remember the name but there were plenty of relatively new build houses nearby!

valiant

10,068 posts

159 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
Roman Rhodes said:
Played a shonky golf course in Aylesbury last year - staff said it was going to have HS2 right through the middle. Can’t remember the name but there were plenty of relatively new build houses nearby!
Similarly has happened with the proposed new Thames crossing into Essex. Brand new housing estate, people had just moved in and then they’re told they are in the way of the preferred crossing route and they’ll have to come down.

Like HS2, it will take years and years to get through all the planning hurdles and you can’t move until you get your compensation (which could also take years) as no one on their right mind would buy it now.


dxg

8,121 posts

259 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
I understand there's a new national expressway coming between Oxford and Cambridge as the basis for a new corridor of development of all kinds, a.k.a. "The Arc" - just north west of the greenbelt...

bucksmanuk

2,311 posts

169 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
It is possible to get to Birmingham easier than that- Aylesbury to Risborough, change- Risborough to Birmingham, I think its New Street. Then if you want HS2, change onto that. But it takes ages, especially the first bit… and HS2 is effectively whizzing past while you are on the slow train.
All that construction taking place close to a rapidly growing town, which will cause serious upheaval on both sides of the town for 5 years minimum and yet no plans for a station. Doesn’t make sense to me.

You are right though - it is a shonky golf course.
https://www.mix96.co.uk/news/local/2839651/aylesbu...

I know a few people on the Fairford Leys estate next to it, and they are seriously peed off, as the line was originally supposed to be another 500-700 metres away. They would not have bought their houses if they had known. Those houses haven't been up long either - 13 years?
I did notice that the HS2 line has been altered slightly so it is now a little further away from Eythrope than before. It wouldn’t do to have it going through the Rothschild’s front garden now - would it? -Literally, the front garden, not the estate…
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

I have heard about a possible Oxford to Cambridge railway line, it’s not my idea, but that’s all I’ve heard. I’m not aware of anything else happening.
There’s a plan to build a road though…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_to_Cambridge_...

But why not make it a railway line instead? I say this owning 3 cars and a serious petrolhead. Personally, I think this would be a game changer for the South East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_–_Mi...

Strange how these concepts come back again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Line

P5BNij

15,764 posts

105 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
Regarding the Oxford - Cambridge route, there's currently a lot of work going on with the Bletchley flyover so something is afoot. It's been a while since I took a train up it but as I understand it there's a possibility of having two short platforms built onto the sides of it at some point, it's a bit of a squeeze but do-able.

Amateurish

7,697 posts

221 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
P5BNij said:
Regarding the Oxford - Cambridge route, there's currently a lot of work going on with the Bletchley flyover so something is afoot. It's been a while since I took a train up it but as I understand it there's a possibility of having two short platforms built onto the sides of it at some point, it's a bit of a squeeze but do-able.
East - West rail has been on the cards for years. But it keeps getting pushed back and downgraded.

anonymous-user

53 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
bucksmanuk said:
It is possible to get to Birmingham easier than that- Aylesbury to Risborough, change- Risborough to Birmingham, I think its New Street. Then if you want HS2, change onto that. But it takes ages, especially the first bit… and HS2 is effectively whizzing past while you are on the slow train.
All that construction taking place close to a rapidly growing town, which will cause serious upheaval on both sides of the town for 5 years minimum and yet no plans for a station. Doesn’t make sense to me.

You are right though - it is a shonky golf course.
https://www.mix96.co.uk/news/local/2839651/aylesbu...

I know a few people on the Fairford Leys estate next to it, and they are seriously peed off, as the line was originally supposed to be another 500-700 metres away. They would not have bought their houses if they had known. Those houses haven't been up long either - 13 years?
I did notice that the HS2 line has been altered slightly so it is now a little further away from Eythrope than before. It wouldn’t do to have it going through the Rothschild’s front garden now - would it? -Literally, the front garden, not the estate…
https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/governmen...

I have heard about a possible Oxford to Cambridge railway line, it’s not my idea, but that’s all I’ve heard. I’m not aware of anything else happening.
There’s a plan to build a road though…
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_to_Cambridge_...

But why not make it a railway line instead? I say this owning 3 cars and a serious petrolhead. Personally, I think this would be a game changer for the South East.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cambridge_–_Mi...

Strange how these concepts come back again
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Varsity_Line
Yes, I remember and you're right about it being a road now - but I'm pretty certain that (maybe 20?) years ago they were talking of restoring and upgrading the Varsity Line. I think it would make good sense and could also act as a'feeder' for HS2 meaning that people don't need to go in and out of London.

Then again, I think there was also talk of establishing a canal between Milton Keynes and Bedford. Haven't heard much about that recently!

Sheepshanks

32,528 posts

118 months

Wednesday 9th October 2019
quotequote all
dxg said:
I understand there's a new national expressway coming between Oxford and Cambridge as the basis for a new corridor of development of all kinds, a.k.a. "The Arc" - just north west of the greenbelt...
Colleague of mine is blighted by both HS2 and the likely route of the new road.