UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

Author
Discussion

Mojocvh

16,837 posts

261 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Zod said:
Art0ir said:
Zod said:
ow exactly would you draw that conclusion from what I have written?

Does any of you, by the way, have any evidence of any complicity by the current Tory ministerial team in covering up child abuse?
The fact the party was whipped to oppose protecting CSA whistleblowers from the Official Secrets Act doesn't look great does it...
It's a difficult subject. Governments always protect the OSA. The real question is how and why the OSA was invoked to protect the likes of Cyril Smith.
Fair comment Zod.

Can you at least understand why many of us, including those with our own children, feel very "uneasy" over the current administration's stalling of inquiries, lack of action against minority child abusers and general pc fkwittery that has led the country to where it is now socially?

Art0ir

9,401 posts

169 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Mojocvh said:
Zod said:
Art0ir said:
Zod said:
ow exactly would you draw that conclusion from what I have written?

Does any of you, by the way, have any evidence of any complicity by the current Tory ministerial team in covering up child abuse?
The fact the party was whipped to oppose protecting CSA whistleblowers from the Official Secrets Act doesn't look great does it...
It's a difficult subject. Governments always protect the OSA. The real question is how and why the OSA was invoked to protect the likes of Cyril Smith.
Fair comment Zod.

Can you at least understand why many of us, including those with our own children, feel very "uneasy" over the current administration's stalling of inquiries, lack of action against minority child abusers and general pc fkwittery that has led the country to where it is now socially?
The minority rape gangs were bad enough. This is establishment figures we're talking about, right to the top.

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Mojocvh said:
Zod said:
Art0ir said:
Zod said:
ow exactly would you draw that conclusion from what I have written?

Does any of you, by the way, have any evidence of any complicity by the current Tory ministerial team in covering up child abuse?
The fact the party was whipped to oppose protecting CSA whistleblowers from the Official Secrets Act doesn't look great does it...
It's a difficult subject. Governments always protect the OSA. The real question is how and why the OSA was invoked to protect the likes of Cyril Smith.
Fair comment Zod.

Can you at least understand why many of us, including those with our own children, feel very "uneasy" over the current administration's stalling of inquiries, lack of action against minority child abusers and general pc fkwittery that has led the country to where it is now socially?
i have young children myself. I find these allegations to be a murky mess and have not nudes what is actually behind them. There is an enquiry now. Let's see what comes out of it. I'll have to check the position in relation to judges and the OSA.

Einion Yrth

19,575 posts

243 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Zod said:
I find these allegations to be a murky mess and have not nudes what is actually behind them.
Huh? Autocorrect?

Zod

35,295 posts

257 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Einion Yrth said:
Zod said:
I find these allegations to be a murky mess and have not nudes what is actually behind them.
Huh? Autocorrect?
Oh yes. Usually it would be amusing. Not in this context.

brenflys777

2,678 posts

176 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
The Conservative position on UKIPS seems to often be that they represent the realistic rather than idealistic way to get some of what ukip stand for. My own local conservative candidate stresses how much she agrees with ukip... but is this just a veneer to get votes? Do they actually agree with controlled immigration, EU exit, grammar schools etc or like this conservative candidate, do they actually despise ukip voters?


http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/24/calls-f...

AshVX220

5,929 posts

189 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
MGJohn said:
AshVX220 said:
I thought he was promising a referendum if he couldn't get the reforms he wants?

If that's the case I imagine he'll get some very minor token reforms and then state a referendum isn't required.

I just don't trust him, or most of the front benchers for either main stream party I'm afraid. frown Rather a sad place to be IMHO.
Ash .. how could you. As if a Politician could be so devious and delay things yet again so the problem would self heal and go away. FAT CHANCE on all counts!


Sad place to be you say. Not sad at all. True and realistic appraisal of the current scenario much like so many past ones. Nothing new here.
wink

don4l

10,058 posts

175 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
wc98 said:
Digga said:
Greg66 said:
At last. A new volume. Perhaps the thinned skinned Kipper who got me banned from the last volume can HTFU this time around. Perhaps.
Or you could just pick on thicker(skinned) kippers instead.
i quite like having people with an opposing view in the debate. stops it turning into an echo chamber,so if greg feels the need to vent ,he can vent on me without fear of being reported smile
Same here.

Winding up lefties is great sport.

The more outrageous their posts, the more I enjoy myself.

Bring back Breadvan, I say.

Mrr T

12,152 posts

264 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
brenflys777 said:
The Conservative position on UKIPS seems to often be that they represent the realistic rather than idealistic way to get some of what ukip stand for. My own local conservative candidate stresses how much she agrees with ukip... but is this just a veneer to get votes? Do they actually agree with controlled immigration, EU exit, grammar schools etc or like this conservative candidate, do they actually despise ukip voters?
The conservative party is a broad church as is any party in a FPTP system. So some will share some views with UKIP.

The difference is that the conservative party might well get power so has to work in the real world, UKIP will never get power so can operate in a fantasy world.

Lets take one of the policies you mention, lets ignore the EU for once and look at grammar schools. Although have not UKIP dropped that policy now?

Grammar school are a fantasy policy of many on the right. They love talking about the child from the poor home who made it to grammar school and excelled. They then ignore the practical problems such as:
a) The system was good for the 30% who passed the 11 plus but a disaster for those who failed, particularly those who might have been cleverer than many who passed.
b) The 11 plus remains a failure as a selection tool and no other options are politically practical.
c) Even if you solved the problems the costs would be high.

Esseesse

8,969 posts

207 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
The conservative party is a broad church as is any party in a FPTP system. So some will share some views with UKIP.

The difference is that the conservative party might well get power so has to work in the real world, UKIP will never get power so can operate in a fantasy world.

Lets take one of the policies you mention, lets ignore the EU for once and look at grammar schools. Although have not UKIP dropped that policy now?

Grammar school are a fantasy policy of many on the right. They love talking about the child from the poor home who made it to grammar school and excelled. They then ignore the practical problems such as:
a) The system was good for the 30% who passed the 11 plus but a disaster for those who failed, particularly those who might have been cleverer than many who passed.
b) The 11 plus remains a failure as a selection tool and no other options are politically practical.
c) Even if you solved the problems the costs would be high.
They manage to operate a selective school system in the Netherlands.

Are comprehensives any better than secondary moderns? Why do politicians not use them? Good schooling for the rich only.

Just about everyone (and I mean over 90%) on my university course was privately educated or went to one of the few remaining grammar schools (a good course at a good university, but not considered up there with a strictly academic course at a red brick).

anonymous-user

53 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
don4l said:
wc98 said:
Digga said:
Greg66 said:
At last. A new volume. Perhaps the thinned skinned Kipper who got me banned from the last volume can HTFU this time around. Perhaps.
Or you could just pick on thicker(skinned) kippers instead.
i quite like having people with an opposing view in the debate. stops it turning into an echo chamber,so if greg feels the need to vent ,he can vent on me without fear of being reported smile
Same here.

Winding up lefties is great sport.

The more outrageous their posts, the more I enjoy myself.

Bring back Breadvan, I say.
Hats off to you chaps; I look forward to the customary frank exchange of views.

Unless someone felt vicariously offended (which would be ironic in this thread) I have a good idea of who pointed the finger. For my part though, I'm not looking to settle any scores in this volume (not least as if it was who I suspect, humiliation has been heaped back upon them in another unrelated thread). Karma...

So, what have I missed? Is this UKIP manifesto author who doesn't want to leave Europe after all the same one that's just been expelled? Or have they not got round to expelling her yet? Perhaps the party should set aside a day - maybe Fridays - to do its routine expulsions. Avoid the weekday news cycle that way.


Axionknight

8,505 posts

134 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Greg66 said:
Hats off to you chaps; I look forward to the customary frank exchange of views.

Unless someone felt vicariously offended (which would be ironic in this thread) I have a good idea of who pointed the finger. For my part though, I'm not looking to settle any scores in this volume (not least as if it was who I suspect, humiliation has been heaped back upon them in another unrelated thread). Karma...

So, what have I missed? Is this UKIP manifesto author who doesn't want to leave Europe after all the same one that's just been expelled? Or have they not got round to expelling her yet? Perhaps the party should set aside a day - maybe Fridays - to do its routine expulsions. Avoid the weekday news cycle that way.
I suggest you read the whole article....

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
Axionknight said:
I suggest you read the whole article....
I don't want to leave Europe either, but I want my country to have control over its borders and laws.
Gee thats a tough one.

carinaman

21,214 posts

171 months

Tuesday 24th March 2015
quotequote all
The sums for HS2 don't add up. I'm fed up with made up justifications from politicians. I am not keen on HS2.

Surely the technology will be old hat due to Super Capacitator batteries made from nuggets of purest Graphene? Trains are old Tech. that's about to be made even more old Tech.

brenflys777

2,678 posts

176 months

Wednesday 25th March 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
brenflys777 said:
The Conservative position on UKIPS seems to often be that they represent the realistic rather than idealistic way to get some of what ukip stand for. My own local conservative candidate stresses how much she agrees with ukip... but is this just a veneer to get votes? Do they actually agree with controlled immigration, EU exit, grammar schools etc or like this conservative candidate, do they actually despise ukip voters?
The conservative party is a broad church as is any party in a FPTP system. So some will share some views with UKIP.

The difference is that the conservative party might well get power so has to work in the real world, UKIP will never get power so can operate in a fantasy world.

Lets take one of the policies you mention, lets ignore the EU for once and look at grammar schools. Although have not UKIP dropped that policy now?

Grammar school are a fantasy policy of many on the right. They love talking about the child from the poor home who made it to grammar school and excelled. They then ignore the practical problems such as:
a) The system was good for the 30% who passed the 11 plus but a disaster for those who failed, particularly those who might have been cleverer than many who passed.
b) The 11 plus remains a failure as a selection tool and no other options are politically practical.
c) Even if you solved the problems the costs would be high.
The link I posted: http://www.breitbart.com/london/2015/03/24/calls-f... relates to a different point.

You can take issue with an individual policy - like Grammar schools that UKIP support - I would disagree with you (modest background... grammar school!) and lots of conservatives and Labour voters would agree with me. UKIP is a major party and a broad church but this conservative candidate is saying that UKIP supporters are racist. Considering the overlap that can exist between the views of conservative & UKIP voters, this is extraordinary.

Conservative politicians like this lady seem oblivious to the nonsense that if someone has views compatible with voting UKIP - but votes Tory they are part of a broad church and pragmatic - but if they vote UKIP those same views make them a racist! biggrin

I do wonder how common this attitude is in the conservatives?

MGJohn

10,203 posts

182 months

Wednesday 25th March 2015
quotequote all
brenflys777 said:
...... I do wonder how common this attitude is in the conservatives?
Simply explained. Worried about the UKIP effect.

Both major Political Parties are really concerned the effect of the UK Independence Party will have on their former voters come May 7th. Rightly so.

She and Desperate Dave will stress a vote for UKIP will ensure one of the two Eds will occupy No.10 as from May 8th. Conversely, although recently toned down to a lesser extent because of north of the border influences, leader Ed and moneyman Ed will tell you a vote for UKIP will send desperate Dave back into No.10.

May 7th cannot come soon enough for me.

Meantime.... Media mediocrity rules hehe

Note how Desperate Dave's statement that ten years is more than enough for him has been presented by our wonderful media.

Actually an admirable admission as no doubt he's long since discovered being resident in No.10 is not all that. One can only take so much. This has been presented always with a negative slant in all the media reports and newscasts I've seen today. No surprises there for me at least.



McWigglebum4th

32,414 posts

203 months

Wednesday 25th March 2015
quotequote all
Mrr T said:
Grammar school are a fantasy policy of many on the right. They love talking about the child from the poor home who made it to grammar school and excelled. They then ignore the practical problems such as:
a) The system was good for the 30% who passed the 11 plus but a disaster for those who failed, particularly those who might have been cleverer than many who passed.
b) The 11 plus remains a failure as a selection tool and no other options are politically practical.
c) Even if you solved the problems the costs would be high.
Yes the selection process will fail some but it will also assist many others to be lifted out of poverty

However left wing logic seems to be they would prefer everyone to fail and everyone to be in poverty in the name of fairness

NicD

3,281 posts

256 months

Wednesday 25th March 2015
quotequote all
McWigglebum4th said:
Yes the selection process will fail some but it will also assist many others to be lifted out of poverty

However left wing logic seems to be they would prefer everyone to fail and everyone to be in poverty in the name of fairness
Not everyone, after all, some pigs have to be more equal than others.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Animal_Farm

JustAnotherLogin

1,127 posts

120 months

Wednesday 25th March 2015
quotequote all
brenflys777 said:
Conservative politicians like this lady seem oblivious to the nonsense that if someone has views compatible with voting UKIP - but votes Tory they are part of a broad church and pragmatic - but if they vote UKIP those same views make them a racist! biggrin

I do wonder how common this attitude is in the conservatives?
As far as I can see from the article she did not say that all UKIP supporters are racist (nor that no racists vote for other parties), just that there are a lot of racists voting for UKIP

One could debate how many racists there are in the country, but I would have thought that a racist is disportonately likely to vote for a party whose main 2 policies relate to UK nationalism and controlling immigration. Now some will vote for the more extreme parties, but it is likely that many will choose to vote for a party that has a better chance of "making a difference".
So I think it would be very surprising if a disprortionate number of racists are supporting UKIP.
In the absence of any evience to the contrary I cold logic would suggest that it is indeed true that a lot of racists will vote for UKIP, and a higher percentage than will vote for the Tories, Labour, LibDems or Greens.

That does not make UKIP a racist party, nor does it mean that all Kippers are racists.

HonestIago

1,719 posts

185 months

Wednesday 25th March 2015
quotequote all
JustAnotherLogin said:
As far as I can see from the article she did not say that all UKIP supporters are racist (nor that no racists vote for other parties), just that there are a lot of racists voting for UKIP

One could debate how many racists there are in the country, but I would have thought that a racist is disportonately likely to vote for a party whose main 2 policies relate to UK nationalism and controlling immigration. Now some will vote for the more extreme parties, but it is likely that many will choose to vote for a party that has a better chance of "making a difference".
So I think it would be very surprising if a disprortionate number of racists are supporting UKIP.
In the absence of any evience to the contrary I cold logic would suggest that it is indeed true that a lot of racists will vote for UKIP, and a higher percentage than will vote for the Tories, Labour, LibDems or Greens.

That does not make UKIP a racist party, nor does it mean that all Kippers are racists.
Being slightly "racist", as in to the extent of preferring to associate/live with/be surrounded by people of one's own race/culture (culture is the main deciding factor) is ENTIRELY NORMAL. People ALL hold these views if you go to ANY non-Western country, it is completely natural! It is just that in the West we are vilified by our left-wing media for admitting to feeling such a way. I would wager that the overwhelming majority of Brits feel the same but are afraid to voice such opinions. Do you think Japanese or Chinese people view white people differently to their own race? Do you think black Africans view whites differently to other blacks? Do you think those of Middle Eastern origin view other races equally? Why is it that only Western Liberals have the "right" opinion/worldview?