UKIP - The Future - Volume 4

[Kermit power]

Deptford Draylons said:

It was Derek's point which you jumped in on when I said it was bks. Have you forgotten this already ?
Derek may have thought Cameron needlessly risked his future, but I did not think his risked my future and didn't wish to be lumped in to one group. If I want the choice of a referendum, that's up to me and obviously don't regard being given that vote as a risk. You are free to argue a secondary point that the way I voted presents a risk, as Kermit the Frog has got all mixed up with.

I'm not mixed up at all. The problem is that you seem to be mixing up "risk" and "damage".

Did Cameron risk our future by calling a referendum? Yes, he did. Any major change in circumstances such as this is a risk.

Did Cameron damage our future? Nobody knows yet.

[Deptford Draylons]

Kermit power said:

Deptford Draylons said:

It was Derek's point which you jumped in on when I said it was bks. Have you forgotten this already ?
Derek may have thought Cameron needlessly risked his future, but I did not think his risked my future and didn't wish to be lumped in to one group. If I want the choice of a referendum, that's up to me and obviously don't regard being given that vote as a risk. You are free to argue a secondary point that the way I voted presents a risk, as Kermit the Frog has got all mixed up with.

I'm not mixed up at all. The problem is that you seem to be mixing up "risk" and "damage".

Did Cameron risk our future by calling a referendum? Yes, he did. Any major change in circumstances such as this is a risk.

Did Cameron damage our future? Nobody knows yet.

The original sweeping statement was Derek telling me he risked my future by giving me exactly what I wanted, which was the decision to hold a referendum. I think I have the right as an adult to say I don't believe he risked my future, but you guys are more than welcome to be angry he did yours. I'm still not sure why you can't just speak for yourself on if you feel your future was risked and why everyone in the country has to be lumped in as one.

[Likes Fast Cars]

Kermit power said:

Likes Fast Cars said:

The future is blank. All over red rover, UKIPPers back to voting Conservative

Some of them are. I suspect that some of them are also ex-Labour voters who knew they didn't need to vote UKIP any more, but have forgotten who they used to vote for.

and seeing Jezza's and Abbott's dire performances are totally turned off voting Labour

[Kermit power]

Deptford Draylons said:

The original sweeping statement was Derek telling me he risked my future by giving me exactly what I wanted, which was the decision to hold a referendum. I think I have the right as an adult to say I don't believe he risked my future, but you guys are more than welcome to be angry he did yours. I'm still not sure why you can't just speak for yourself on if you feel your future was risked and why everyone in the country has to be lumped in as one.

I'm not angry about the referendum. I'm just get mildly frustrated about the misuse of the English language.

If you introduce change, then you introduce risk. You may or may not think that that risk id a good thing worth taking, but it is still risk.

[alfie2244]

Kermit power said:

Deptford Draylons said:

The original sweeping statement was Derek telling me he risked my future by giving me exactly what I wanted, which was the decision to hold a referendum. I think I have the right as an adult to say I don't believe he risked my future, but you guys are more than welcome to be angry he did yours. I'm still not sure why you can't just speak for yourself on if you feel your future was risked and why everyone in the country has to be lumped in as one.

I'm not angry about the referendum. I'm just get mildly frustrated about the misuse of the English language.

If you introduce change, then you introduce risk. You may or may not think that that risk id a good thing worth taking, but it is still risk.

Even riskier not to adapt to change hence why we voted out and the EU's days are numbered.

[jjlynn27]

Deptford Draylons said:

You're still arguing that by giving me what I wanted ( the referendum ) he risked my future. I don't feel that way , but you do. It's really that simple.
I actually agree with you he did it because he was trying to be too clever by half and killing the EU question in the country ( growing Ukip support ) and the age old question in his own party in which he thought he'd kill the two birds with one stone.
It still seems a bit of a stretch to tell me he risked my future but giving me exactly what I wanted, as I don't much care how I got it, more just that I did. As I said, speak for yourself on that one, although I get why you are angry you feel he risked YOUR future.

Do you understand word 'risk'? Is English your 3rd language?

[Eddie Strohacker]

Deptford Draylons said:

The original sweeping statement was Derek telling me he risked my future by giving me exactly what I wanted, which was the decision to hold a referendum. I think I have the right as an adult to say I don't believe he risked my future, but you guys are more than welcome to be angry he did yours. I'm still not sure why you can't just speak for yourself on if you feel your future was risked and why everyone in the country has to be lumped in as one.

Junkies want heroin. Only a fool would see Brexit as without risk.

[jjlynn27]

To get this thread back on track, from the 'I really really don't understand what word 'risk' means' fiasco;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39829717

PN said:

So when people are angry, when people feel like they've been let down, when people feel that they're not getting the Brexit they voted for on 23 June, where are they going to? They're going to return to UKIP. So the future of UKIP is very bright indeed.

[Trabi601]

jjlynn27 said:

To get this thread back on track, from the 'I really really don't understand what word 'risk' means' fiasco;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39829717

PN said:

So when people are angry, when people feel like they've been let down, when people feel that they're not getting the Brexit they voted for on 23 June, where are they going to? They're going to return to UKIP. So the future of UKIP is very bright indeed.

How does he work that one out?

The most likely reason for people not getting the Brexit they thought they were voting for is that many will have voted on the basis that we'll retain most of the advantages of being part of the EU, but without paying for it and without 'the hun' telling us what to do.

Hardly what UKIP are supporting.

[Deptford Draylons]

If I'm stuck in a situation without a choice where I feel there is a loss at the end of it, but then given the ability to make my own choices, I'd say I'm rather grateful for that and wouldn't be saying they have needlessly risked my future in a selfish act for themselves by giving me a choice.
This isn't that hard, but if you feel someone giving you choice is to needlessly risk your future, then that's fine. I don't.

[alfie2244]

jjlynn27 said:

To get this thread back on track, from the 'I really really don't understand what word 'risk' means' fiasco;

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39829717

PN said:

So when people are angry, when people feel like they've been let down, when people feel that they're not getting the Brexit they voted for on 23 June, where are they going to? They're going to return to UKIP. So the future of UKIP is very bright indeed.

I think he's wrong.

[anonymous-user]

Kermit power said:

I'm not mixed up at all. The problem is that you seem to be mixing up "risk" and "damage".

Did Cameron risk our future by calling a referendum? Yes, he did. Any major change in circumstances such as this is a risk.

Did Cameron damage our future? Nobody knows yet.

Not calling a referendum was also a risk. People forget this or chose to ignore it.

The country was not happy with the status quo and the signs were that it was becoming less stable politically, that was only going to continue as the EU morphed into a federal state.

Nothing in life is a zero risk game, you can die just getting out of bed.

[SilverSixer]

jsf said:

Not calling a referendum was also a risk. People forget this or chose to ignore it.

The country was not happy with the status quo and the signs were that it was becoming less stable politically, that was only going to continue as the EU morphed into a federal state.

Nothing in life is a zero risk game, you can die just getting out of bed.

This was never on the cards. It still isn't.

Its funny how one of the great arguments for Leave was that the EU was collapsing and would disappear, Brexit contagion would spread to Netherlands, France, Germany. Not happened, has it?

So which was it? EU collapsing or EU becoming a Federal state? It can't be both.

Of course, the answer is that neither are the case but both were used to effect as hysterical arguments for Leave, both appealing to different sections of the hard of thinking.

I think the wool is going to start falling from British eyes pretty soon with the election of Macron, the defeat of Wilders and the soon-to-be-confirmed defeat of AfD. We're soon going to see a renewed desire to be part of the liberal EU as the only alternative to alliance with protectionist Trump's America - and what kind of an alliance would that be? Macron's right, it smacks more of servitude than alliance.

UKIP and its billionaire acolytes, funders and press barons were poison in this country. The illusion is evaporating.

[Eddie Strohacker]

You are about to receive an avalanche of replies telling you the far right vote share across Europe means everything is simply a matter of time, despite repeated defeats there & the annihilation of UKIP at the ballot box here.

[London424]

SilverSixer said:

jsf said:

Not calling a referendum was also a risk. People forget this or chose to ignore it.

The country was not happy with the status quo and the signs were that it was becoming less stable politically, that was only going to continue as the EU morphed into a federal state.

Nothing in life is a zero risk game, you can die just getting out of bed.

This was never on the cards. It still isn't.

Its funny how one of the great arguments for Leave was that the EU was collapsing and would disappear, Brexit contagion would spread to Netherlands, France, Germany. Not happened, has it?

So which was it? EU collapsing or EU becoming a Federal state? It can't be both.

Of course, the answer is that neither are the case but both were used to effect as hysterical arguments for Leave, both appealing to different sections of the hard of thinking.

I think the wool is going to start falling from British eyes pretty soon with the election of Macron, the defeat of Wilders and the soon-to-be-confirmed defeat of AfD. We're soon going to see a renewed desire to be part of the liberal EU as the only alternative to alliance with protectionist Trump's America - and what kind of an alliance would that be? Macron's right, it smacks more of servitude than alliance.

UKIP and its billionaire acolytes, funders and press barons were poison in this country. The illusion is evaporating.

I don't think it's a secret that the EU founders and the leadership of the EU want a united states of Europe. They want more integration and the single currency was the starting point of it. You see more and more effort on rules, laws, regulation etc.

The main issue will be the point where/how they take the next step.

Will the populations of the countries want to take that final step or not?

[jjlynn27]

Eddie Strohacker said:

You are about to receive an avalanche of replies telling you the far right vote share across Europe means everything is simply a matter of time, despite repeated defeats there & the annihilation of UKIP at the ballot box here.

Well, NFarage says that UKIP is not spent force. The future is bright and big and the most beautiful.

[Eddie Strohacker]

jjlynn27 said:

Well, NFarage says that UKIP is not spent force. The future is bright and big and the most beautiful.

One could see them resurging to a degree once the reality of Brexit negotiations begins to dawn, but outside of the EU issue, they really aren't wanted by anyone & their, ahem, hasty manifesto pledges are further evidence of a spent force flailing around for support that isn't there. Clearly the Tories have reabsorbed the rump of their support.

[FiF]

London424 said:

I don't think it's a secret that the EU founders and the leadership of the EU want a united states of Europe. They want more integration and the single currency was the starting point of it. You see more and more effort on rules, laws, regulation etc.

The main issue will be the point where/how they take the next step.

Will the populations of the countries want to take that final step or not?

The point is that whilst the member states consisted of nations with broadly similar economies and views then political and fiscal union was achievable.

Since the expansion and inclusion of several states who were largely basket cases then there is too much variance for this to succeed.

Of course it's an admirable idea to try to bring everyone up to the highest standards, suspect we're seeing something else. However considering the disparate nature of the members, ultimately the only way it could work is by enforcing that unity. History suggests previous attempts by other supra national blocs has failed.

Time will tell, though suspect that, once again, history will teach us that we consistently fail to learn from history.

[Deptford Draylons]

SilverSixer said:

I think the wool is going to start falling from British eyes pretty soon with the election of Macron, the defeat of Wilders and the soon-to-be-confirmed defeat of AfD. We're soon going to see a renewed desire to be part of the liberal EU as the only alternative to alliance with protectionist Trump's America - and what kind of an alliance would that be? Macron's right, it smacks more of servitude than alliance.

You don't think you've gone a bit overboard with this ? When and in what form is the renewed desire to be back in the EU going to show up ?
I personally don't much care what happens to any other country's EU membership as long as I'm out of it.
Since you talk about confused positions, the EU lovers crowd were fawning over the idea that Trump was going to want an EU trade deal over a UK one as a priority. I guess that's a different kind of alliance that is OK ? I'd rather take a trade deal with the US that decided here and not compromised by the objections of 27 other people. Something says it will happen a lot faster too.

[SilverSixer]

Deptford Draylons said:

SilverSixer said:

I think the wool is going to start falling from British eyes pretty soon with the election of Macron, the defeat of Wilders and the soon-to-be-confirmed defeat of AfD. We're soon going to see a renewed desire to be part of the liberal EU as the only alternative to alliance with protectionist Trump's America - and what kind of an alliance would that be? Macron's right, it smacks more of servitude than alliance.

You don't think you've gone a bit overboard with this ? When and in what form is the renewed desire to be back in the EU going to show up ?
I personally don't much care what happens to any other country's EU membership as long as I'm out of it.
Since you talk about confused positions, the EU lovers crowd were fawning over the idea that Trump was going to want an EU trade deal over a UK one as a priority. I guess that's a different kind of alliance that is OK ? I'd rather take a trade deal with the US that decided here and not compromised by the objections of 27 other people. Something says it will happen a lot faster too.

Bold bit - I don't know. I'm speculating. This isn't peer reviewed science, it's an internet opinion forum. It's a feeling - something you will probably understand seeing as how feelings predicated a lot of people's decision to vote Leave, as opposed to facts, such as feelings of loss of sovereignty (see government Brexit White Paper for details of how that feeling was bogus). Who would have predicted Macron's victory last year when his new political movement didn't even exist? Staggering, and a ringing endorsement of people crying out for a moderate pro-international collaboration centre ground.

Nobody was "fawning" over the idea that the USA would likely prioritise an EU trade deal over a UK one - we were frustrated that such an enormous risk was seemingly not factored in to the thinking of Leave voters, and given that you've stated here that you don't care what happens to our biggest and most important neighbours and trading partners, I suppose I shouldn't be surprised. This is the thing some Leave voters seem to stubbornly unable to comprehend - most people voted Remain for what they believed to be the best interest of our country, yet we're persistently painted as traitors and cowards and snowflakes and unpatriotic. All of us want the best for the UK, opinions of course differ on the best way to achieve that. Post-referendum Remoaner shaming is utterly uncalled for and spectacularly misguided.