Lammys latest wheeze....
Discussion
Rivenink said:
[
However, all* racists and xenophobes voted for Leave.I don't think you can claim that, and I don't think you have a shred of evidence to support it. Out of 16million Remain voters, not one of them is a racist? Stroll on with that one! 
By racists, I mean the far right lot that are actively, politically racist as discussed above.
No. You clearly said that all racist and xenophobes voted to Leave. That's almost certainly not true. Some racists may have voted Remain, and some Remain voters will be racist (same thing, but different ! andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
B'stard Child said:
- Leavers are racist/xenophobic
Not all leavers are racists or xenophobic.However, all* racists and xenophobes voted for Leave.
) If you're now saying that all far right racists voted for Brexit then you MIGHT be closer to the truth, but again, you have zero evidence to support your claim.
andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
[
However, all* racists and xenophobes voted for Leave.I don't think you can claim that, and I don't think you have a shred of evidence to support it. Out of 16million Remain voters, not one of them is a racist? Stroll on with that one! By racists, I mean the far right lot that are actively, politically racist as discussed above.
No. You clearly said that all racist and xenophobes voted to Leave. That's almost certainly not true. Some racists may have voted Remain, and some Remain voters will be racist (same thing, but different ! andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
B'stard Child said:
- Leavers are racist/xenophobic
Not all leavers are racists or xenophobic.However, all* racists and xenophobes voted for Leave.
) If you're now saying that all far right racists voted for Brexit then you MIGHT be closer to the truth, but again, you have zero evidence to support your claim.
I do find it quite amusing that the “we hate the black” “no muzzies” crowd are pro-leave (again from the current UKIP lot, Britain First etc as Rivenink mentioned) as the EU does a good job of minimising their immigration and participation in EU politics. Out the EU there’s equal opportunity for all nationalities rather than just those within a trade group.
Just to clear something up. There were lies on both sides. Project fear, nhs bus. Neither of which would have had a major deciding factor. But if you believe it did, look at the sheer lies pushed by labour via social media in the last ge.
The nhs bus, whilst misleading, just look how much we pay into the EU vs what we retain?
Beyond the EU subsidising job moves to Slovakia how about the fact that of all governments the UK applied the rules on tenders more than anywhere else
Bombardier losing out to Siemens when we were excluded from bidding for German reworks or how about rover? We couldn’t give them a loan and yet how did PSA survive?
Look at investment in infrastructure in Spain, all with EU grant signs (brainwashing) when our own infrastructure crumbles.
I voted to leave a corrupt federation with a goal for inclusion, the recent Japan zero tarrief deal was helped by brexit, to punish us
Portsmouth lost the docks to buy the Scottish vote and an aim to remain in the EU
Brb my face looks like a gammon. Nice insult.
The nhs bus, whilst misleading, just look how much we pay into the EU vs what we retain?
Beyond the EU subsidising job moves to Slovakia how about the fact that of all governments the UK applied the rules on tenders more than anywhere else
Bombardier losing out to Siemens when we were excluded from bidding for German reworks or how about rover? We couldn’t give them a loan and yet how did PSA survive?
Look at investment in infrastructure in Spain, all with EU grant signs (brainwashing) when our own infrastructure crumbles.
I voted to leave a corrupt federation with a goal for inclusion, the recent Japan zero tarrief deal was helped by brexit, to punish us
Portsmouth lost the docks to buy the Scottish vote and an aim to remain in the EU
Brb my face looks like a gammon. Nice insult.
Baby Shark doo doo doo doo said:
I wonder how the anti-semites in Labour voted?
I do find it quite amusing that the “we hate the black” “no muzzies” crowd are pro-leave (again from the current UKIP lot, Britain First etc as Rivenink mentioned) as the EU does a good job of minimising their immigration and participation in EU politics. Out the EU there’s equal opportunity for all nationalities rather than just those within a trade group.
I had a conversation with someone who was a proud UKIP voter pre-referendum. Their entire concern was with immigration, and particularly Muslims. I never did get to the bottom of the logic behind how leaving the EU would reduce immigration to the UK by Muslims. I know they voted for Leave on the expectation that the UK would suddenly stop accepting immigrants. They knew what they were voting for; but they're not going to get it because the issue had fI do find it quite amusing that the “we hate the black” “no muzzies” crowd are pro-leave (again from the current UKIP lot, Britain First etc as Rivenink mentioned) as the EU does a good job of minimising their immigration and participation in EU politics. Out the EU there’s equal opportunity for all nationalities rather than just those within a trade group.
k all to do with the EU. Rivenink said:
I had a conversation with someone who was a proud UKIP voter pre-referendum. Their entire concern was with immigration, and particularly Muslims. I never did get to the bottom of the logic behind how leaving the EU would reduce immigration to the UK by Muslims. I know they voted for Leave on the expectation that the UK would suddenly stop accepting immigrants. They knew what they were voting for; but they're not going to get it because the issue had fk all to do with the EU.
cool story brok all to do with the EU. Supercilious Sid said:
Rivenink said:
And there's a difference between gammon faced little englanders and Leave voters in general.
By using a perjorative term based on skill colour that puts you firmly in the racist camp.Meanwhile the Brexit Party are gathering new members by the thousands, £25 and faith is all that is needed, we know the leader has the will and determination required to deliver the promise, unlike two other Political Parties under the name of Tory and Labour.
George Smiley said:
Just to clear something up. There were lies on both sides. Project fear, nhs bus. Neither of which would have had a major deciding factor. But if you believe it did, look at the sheer lies pushed by labour via social media in the last ge.
The nhs bus, whilst misleading, just look how much we pay into the EU vs what we retain?
Beyond the EU subsidising job moves to Slovakia how about the fact that of all governments the UK applied the rules on tenders more than anywhere else
Bombardier losing out to Siemens when we were excluded from bidding for German reworks or how about rover? We couldn’t give them a loan and yet how did PSA survive?
Look at investment in infrastructure in Spain, all with EU grant signs (brainwashing) when our own infrastructure crumbles.
I voted to leave a corrupt federation with a goal for inclusion, the recent Japan zero tarrief deal was helped by brexit, to punish us
Portsmouth lost the docks to buy the Scottish vote and an aim to remain in the EU
Brb my face looks like a gammon. Nice insult.
Why remainer posters cannot see this evidence is difficult to fathom. Honest concise summary.The nhs bus, whilst misleading, just look how much we pay into the EU vs what we retain?
Beyond the EU subsidising job moves to Slovakia how about the fact that of all governments the UK applied the rules on tenders more than anywhere else
Bombardier losing out to Siemens when we were excluded from bidding for German reworks or how about rover? We couldn’t give them a loan and yet how did PSA survive?
Look at investment in infrastructure in Spain, all with EU grant signs (brainwashing) when our own infrastructure crumbles.
I voted to leave a corrupt federation with a goal for inclusion, the recent Japan zero tarrief deal was helped by brexit, to punish us
Portsmouth lost the docks to buy the Scottish vote and an aim to remain in the EU
Brb my face looks like a gammon. Nice insult.
crankedup said:
Rivenink is full on rabid remainer, facts do not matter but insults, in his/her mind, are reinforcing the message. Sad and best left alone imo.
Meanwhile the Brexit Party are gathering new members by the thousands, £25 and faith is all that is needed, we know the leader has the will and determination required to deliver the promise, unlike two other Political Parties under the name of Tory and Labour.
You are a master of irony it seems. Meanwhile the Brexit Party are gathering new members by the thousands, £25 and faith is all that is needed, we know the leader has the will and determination required to deliver the promise, unlike two other Political Parties under the name of Tory and Labour.
You accuse me of being all about insults, when I have not directed any insult at any poster in this thread, and yet here you are describing me as "rabid" and "sad".
Not that your hypocrisy on this point necessarily negates or devalues any other points you have to make about threads topic.
crankedup said:
Why remainer posters cannot see this evidence is difficult to fathom. Honest concise summary.
Becuase its entirely one-sided, and ignores the fact that there have been times when the UK has not always followed EU rules to the letter. It omits the fact that the EU has funded regeneration projects all around the UK as well that have benefited communities that otherwise would have been ignored by the UK Government.
It ignores the fact that these infrastructure projects are investments to help those economies to grow, so that they can do more trade and contribute more to the EU budget.
It projects an unrealistic view that the EU is any more corrupt than the UK Government. All political institutions carry the parasite of corruption. How corrupt was it of Theresa May to offer a £1billion tax payer bung to the DUP to stay in power?
Did the remain campaign make false promises... absolutely. Cameron and Osbourne were arrogant, and thought focusing on the economic downsides would win once again for them. But the thing is, I didn't vote to remain based on economic predictions. I voted remain because I think the UK would have greater influence and power in the world as part of the EU, than it would outside of the EU, being sidelined by the growing economic powers of China, India. The last 3 years has provided me with very little evidence that we're going to be led to greatness by the current bunch of incompetents and swindlers once we do finally exit the EU.
Rivenink said:
Becuase its entirely one-sided, and ignores the fact that there have been times when the UK has not always followed EU rules to the letter.
Can you give an example of this? Rivenink said:
It omits the fact that the EU has funded regeneration projects all around the UK
Using money provided by the UK does not count. We have contributed far far more than we have received back. Rivenink said:
as well that have benefited communities that otherwise would have been ignored by the UK Government.
This is an oft made point by Remain supporters, which, as is often the case is based on conjecture and supposition rather than any actual evidence. You cannot possibly know what UK Governments of all shades would have invested in within the UK over the past 40 years had they not been paying into Brussels. Rivenink said:
It ignores the fact that these infrastructure projects are investments to help those economies to grow, so that they can do more trade and contribute more to the EU budget.
How's that going for Spain, Portugal, Greece etc? And again, you talk about these places contributing more to the EU budget. These places contribute nothing to the EU budget!Rivenink said:
It projects an unrealistic view that the EU is any more corrupt than the UK Government. All political institutions carry the parasite of corruption.
So the EU failure to get the accounts signed off for god knows how many years is OK is it? Not something that afflicts the UK Treasury as far as I can recall. So yes, the EU is more corrupt than the UK Govt. And it is corrupt in that members within it deliberately seek personal financial gain, whereas the example you give below is indeed an example of political corruption, but it is not an example of personal corruptionRivenink said:
How corrupt was it of Theresa May to offer a £1billion tax payer bung to the DUP to stay in power?
Your use of the word corruption here needs to be qualified, see above. Rivenink said:
Did the remain campaign make false promises... absolutely. Cameron and Osbourne were arrogant, and thought focusing on the economic downsides would win once again for them. But the thing is, I didn't vote to remain based on economic predictions.
Would you concede that a % of Remain voters voted that way because they DID believe the economic predictions (lies) put out by the Remain camp. What is the size of that %?Rivenink said:
I voted remain because I think the UK would have greater influence and power in the world as part of the EU, than it would outside of the EU, being sidelined by the growing economic powers of China, India. The last 3 years has provided me with very little evidence that we're going to be led to greatness by the current bunch of incompetents and swindlers once we do finally exit the EU.
Which is fair enough. It's an opinion that I do not share (the greater influence as part of the EU bit) But it's not surprising that a remain PM, with a largely remain cabinet, using a chief negotiator (Robbins) who is also an arch remainer and being egged on by a sizeable contingent of remain MPs in Parliament (of all parties) has made such a pigs ear of negotiating our exit. Maybe they hope that if they make it look too difficult/horrible/costly that the whole thing will just go away? Call me cynical.
With any luck most of these incompetents will not be deciding our future in the coming years
Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 18th April 13:05
rscott said:
London424 said:
jjlynn27 said:
Murph7355 said:
In and of itself proof of nothing. "one of my best friends is <insert whatever here>".
Hypocritical gobste seems to fit him well.
You don't see the diff between 'my best friend is' and being married to someone? Hypocritical gobs
te seems to fit him well. C'mon.
ninjacost said:
https://youtu.be/DsR4Nx-ELgc The great man sharing his wisdom ;-)
Q. Who succeeded Henry VIII?A. Henry VII
andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
Becuase its entirely one-sided, and ignores the fact that there have been times when the UK has not always followed EU rules to the letter.
Can you give an example of this? https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/lat...
Apparently the UK has had over 750 complaints that it did not follow EU rules.
andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
It omits the fact that the EU has funded regeneration projects all around the UK
Using money provided by the UK does not count. We have contributed far far more than we have received back. andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
as well that have benefited communities that otherwise would have been ignored by the UK Government.
This is an oft made point by Remain supporters, which, as is often the case is based on conjecture and supposition rather than any actual evidence. You cannot possibly know what UK Governments of all shades would have invested in within the UK over the past 40 years had they not been paying into Brussels. andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
It ignores the fact that these infrastructure projects are investments to help those economies to grow, so that they can do more trade and contribute more to the EU budget.
How's that going for Spain, Portugal, Greece etc? And again, you talk about these places contributing more to the EU budget. These places contribute nothing to the EU budget!That said, the EU can be rightfully criticised for not ensuring the money was actually invested. The situation in Greece is a huge stain.
andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
It projects an unrealistic view that the EU is any more corrupt than the UK Government. All political institutions carry the parasite of corruption.
So the EU failure to get the accounts signed off for god knows how many years is OK is it? Not something that afflicts the UK Treasury as far as I can recall. So yes, the EU is more corrupt than the UK Govt. And it is corrupt in that members within it deliberately seek personal financial gain, whereas the example you give below is indeed an example of political corruption, but it is not an example of personal corruptionRivenink said:
How corrupt was it of Theresa May to offer a £1billion tax payer bung to the DUP to stay in power?
Your use of the word corruption here needs to be qualified, see above. Full Fact said:
Claim
- The EU’s accounts haven’t been signed off for years.
Conclusion
- Auditors say the accounts have been accurate since 2007. But they have historically recorded significant errors in how money is paid since their first audit in 1995. In the most recent year, they found a significant part of the EU’s spending was largely error-free for the first time.
So its false to claim that they haven't "signed off" their accounts in years, but there is a criticism to be made about the historical errors; but the trajectory seems to be that its getting better. - The EU’s accounts haven’t been signed off for years.
Conclusion
- Auditors say the accounts have been accurate since 2007. But they have historically recorded significant errors in how money is paid since their first audit in 1995. In the most recent year, they found a significant part of the EU’s spending was largely error-free for the first time.
So is the EU more corrupt than the UK on the weight of that?
As for personal corruption, MP expenses scandal comes to mind, cash for votes scandals?
andymadmak said:
[quote]
Sorry I should been more specific. The falsehoods by Cameron and Osbourne were the lies about how they would trigger article 50 on june 24th and so on. Rivenink said:
Did the remain campaign make false promises... absolutely. Cameron and Osbourne were arrogant, and thought focusing on the economic downsides would win once again for them. But the thing is, I didn't vote to remain based on economic predictions.
Would you concede that a % of Remain voters voted that way because they DID believe the economic predictions (lies) put out by the Remain camp. What is the size of that %?The economic warnings have been somewhat accurate. The UK has lost out on up to £66 billion in lost economic growth, £550 million a week. https://www.theweek.co.uk/93785/how-much-money-has...
The £ lost 20% of its value since Brexit.
I think most people who voted remain for economic reasons did so on the principle of wanting status quo.
andymadmak said:
Rivenink said:
I voted remain because I think the UK would have greater influence and power in the world as part of the EU, than it would outside of the EU, being sidelined by the growing economic powers of China, India. The last 3 years has provided me with very little evidence that we're going to be led to greatness by the current bunch of incompetents and swindlers once we do finally exit the EU.
Which is fair enough. It's an opinion that I do not share (the greater influence as part of the EU bit) But it's not surprising that a remain PM, with a largely remain cabinet, using a chief negotiator (Robbins) who is also an arch remainer and being egged on by a sizeable contingent of remain MPs in Parliament (of all parties) has made such a pigs ear of negotiating our exit. Maybe they hope that if they make it look too difficult/horrible/costly that the whole thing will just go away? Call me cynical.
With any luck most of these incompetents will not be deciding our future in the coming years
Edited by andymadmak on Thursday 18th April 13:05
Theresa May has continually appeased and kowtowed to the ERG leaver contingent in Parliament, and that is why her deal has no consensus with rest of Parliament. Except she couldn't deliver everything the ERG wanted, and they voted against her as well!
Suggesting that its all because she is a remainer completely ignores that the Brexit path she has followed led her to committing the UK to leaving almost all European organisations, the fact she has pursued the type of brexit wanted by the more extreme leavers and that up until the Withdrawal agreement was drawn up, Parliament was voting through all things Brexit. The hard remainers in Parliament don't have the numbers to prevent Brexit.
Rivenink said:
Just to add that if you accept the £66 billion figure as accurate, its just one analysis after all, that could mean the UK treasury lost out on over £24 billion in tax revenue over the past 3 years.
Or £156 million a week.
Might have been nice to fund the NHS with that?
That is a big if.. Would similar forecasts regarding the German or even the Chinese economy made at the same time also show a massive loss if compared to the actual figures? Or £156 million a week.
Might have been nice to fund the NHS with that?
Vanden Saab said:
Rivenink said:
Just to add that if you accept the £66 billion figure as accurate, its just one analysis after all, that could mean the UK treasury lost out on over £24 billion in tax revenue over the past 3 years.
Or £156 million a week.
Might have been nice to fund the NHS with that?
That is a big if.. Would similar forecasts regarding the German or even the Chinese economy made at the same time also show a massive loss if compared to the actual figures? Or £156 million a week.
Might have been nice to fund the NHS with that?
Rivenink said:
<snip>
Theresa May has continually appeased and kowtowed to the ERG leaver contingent in Parliament, and that is why her deal has no consensus with rest of Parliament. Except she couldn't deliver everything the ERG wanted, and they voted against her as well!
What a bizarrely contradictory argument; she's appeased them by not acceding to more or less all of their demands? Remainer sentiment before the ref aside, by her actions she's neither remainer nor leaver, she's a not very competent managerialist. Theresa May has continually appeased and kowtowed to the ERG leaver contingent in Parliament, and that is why her deal has no consensus with rest of Parliament. Except she couldn't deliver everything the ERG wanted, and they voted against her as well!
hidetheelephants said:
Rivenink said:
<snip>
Theresa May has continually appeased and kowtowed to the ERG leaver contingent in Parliament, and that is why her deal has no consensus with rest of Parliament. Except she couldn't deliver everything the ERG wanted, and they voted against her as well!
What a bizarrely contradictory argument; she's appeased them by not acceding to more or less all of their demands? Remainer sentiment before the ref aside, by her actions she's neither remainer nor leaver, she's a not very competent managerialist. Theresa May has continually appeased and kowtowed to the ERG leaver contingent in Parliament, and that is why her deal has no consensus with rest of Parliament. Except she couldn't deliver everything the ERG wanted, and they voted against her as well!
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