Girl duped by man who was actually a woman..

[XJ40]

I just think personally that the sentence is very disproportionate given what I've read in the media of the case.

I read earlier for example that causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving has a 5 year max sentence.. yes I know that's an unintentional killing, but considering the seriousness of the consequences of the actions it seems a worse crime to me in the scheme of things than one of concealed gender identity..

[Gecko1978]

XJ40 said:

I just think personally that the sentence is very disproportionate given what I've read in the media of the case.

I read earlier for example that causing death by careless or inconsiderate driving has a 5 year max sentence.. yes I know that's an unintentional killing, but considering the seriousness of the consequences of the actions it seems a worse crime to me in the scheme of things than one of concealed gender identity..

accodentally killing someone due to a momentary loss of concentration, versus pre meditated multiple counts of Rape. When you just lay it out cold does not seem so harsh.

Still ten times with a strapon an she did not know. Also who has sex an does not touch the pther person, feel there body..oh look boobs an whats this your wearing a swim suit. WTF she knew it was a women

[s3fella]

Beati Dogu said:

You'd think the victim would have realised something was odd when the 'man' was actually listening to them.

"

His tits and lack of old chap and balls should have given her a hint, too.

Presumably she didn't do biology at University?

[Gecko1978]

s3fella said:

Beati Dogu said:

You'd think the victim would have realised something was odd when the 'man' was actually listening to them.

"

His tits and lack of old chap and balls should have given her a hint, too.

Presumably she didn't do biology at University?

or a;; her previouse partner had told her to lay there spread her legs an not touch them as they had boffed away at her lady garden...what was the mask for...donmt look at me medusa your face turns me to stone.

She knew I am sure, but maybe not till it was too late...

but what they met victime blindfolded she gets undressed an the rapist hopes on then what they finish an she is left to dress in private an leave. sounds totally BS

[anonymous-user]

La Liga said:

The sentence is in-line with three not-guilty convictions for sexual assault...

Genuine question, how is it sexual assault? The 'sex' was consensual and given that it apparently happened multiple times presumably enjoyable. Is it that consent was based on a falsehood and therefore not genuine consent? Would the same not be true if someone pretended to be more successful/richer/un-married... in which case arn't we going to need more prisons?

[Rude-boy]

Beati Dogu said:

You'd think the victim would have realised something was odd when the 'man' was actually listening to them.

This post deserves more love than it has had thus far

[XJ40]

fblm said:

Genuine question, how is it sexual assault? The 'sex' was consensual and given that it apparently happened multiple times presumably enjoyable. Is it that consent was based on a falsehood and therefore not genuine consent? Would the same not be true if someone pretended to be more successful/richer/un-married... in which case arn't we going to need more prisons?

Those are my exact thoughts too, which is way I find the long sentence mind boggling.

I'd say though that perhaps we should imagine it the other way around, if we were to have sex with a person who presented themselves as a woman, but was in fact later revealed to be a transexual man, how would we feel about it?? Would we think a crime have been committed? I wouldn't have considered it a crime before, but it obviously is these days given the outcome of this case, presuming it works both ways??

Edited by XJ40 on Friday 13th November 14:52

[anonymous-user]

fblm said:

La Liga said:

The sentence is in-line with three not-guilty convictions for sexual assault...

Genuine question, how is it sexual assault? The 'sex' was consensual and given that it apparently happened multiple times presumably enjoyable. Is it that consent was based on a falsehood and therefore not genuine consent? Would the same not be true if someone pretended to be more successful/richer/un-married... in which case arn't we going to need more prisons?

Good question. Yes, it was the deception. By coincidence, the Court of Appeal sums it up very well with a case which involved a another female pretending to be a male. It also helps to answer the limitations part i.e. pretending to be rich to get laid isn't sufficient deception:

CPS said:

The third case, Justine McNally v R [2013] EWCA Crim 1051, differs from those referred to above. Unlike Assange and F, both of which turned on an express condition, McNally was concerned with the material deception of the victim by the Appellant.

The Court of Appeal dismissed McNally's appeal against her conviction on six counts of assault by penetration contrary to section 2 of the SOA and allowed her appeal against sentence. The "undeniably unusual" facts considered by the Court involved the relationship between two girls which, over 3 years, developed from an internet relationship to an "exclusive romantic relationship" that involved their meeting and engaging in sexual activity. From the start McNally presented as a boy, a deception she maintained throughout the relationship. Examining the nature of "choice" and "freedom", the Court determined that "deception as to gender can vitiate consent".

The Courts reasoning was as follows:

"Thus while, in a physical sense, the acts of assault by penetration of the vagina are the same whether perpetrated by a male or a female, the sexual nature of the acts is, on any common sense view, different where the complainant is deliberately deceived by a defendant into believing the latter is a male. Assuming the facts to be proved as alleged, M chose to have sexual encounters with a boy and her preference (her freedom to choose whether or not to have a sexual encounter with a girl) was removed by the appellants deception."

Demonstrating that the circumstances in which consent may be vitiated are not limitless, the Court explained:

"In reality, some deceptions (such as, for example, in relation to wealth) will obviously not be sufficient to vitiate consent."

Source: http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/p_to_r/rape_and_sexual...

[Moonhawk]

fblm said:

Is it that consent was based on a falsehood and therefore not genuine consent? Would the same not be true if someone pretended to be more successful/richer/un-married... in which case arn't we going to need more prisons?

Yep - this also comes back to the "are men afraid of transgender women" thread that was doing the rounds a few weeks back.

If a man has otherwise consensual sex with a post OP TS but was not told of this fact in advance - would that count as sexual assault (on behalf of the TS).

Just how profound does the falsehood (or omission) have to be to nullify consent?

[xjay1337]

montymoo said:

8 years fk sake!
Personally i think it's been a fking waste of public money from the start and will continue to be so for many years.

I am firmly of the belief that the other girl knew fine well she was not riding a dick and knew it was a dildo, how you cant tell the difference i don't know.

I agree with this

I get the whole psychological distress thing but the "victim" wasn't raped. It was consensual sex.
The fact she didn't check her partner out properly is irrelevant.
bks sentancing and a TOTAL waste of public money.

[anonymous-user]

La Liga said:

CPS said:

..."deception as to gender can vitiate consent".
...
"In reality, some deceptions (such as, for example, in relation to wealth) will obviously not be sufficient to vitiate consent...

Thanks Liga, you win PH today!

XJ40 said:

...if we were to have sex with a person who presented themselves as a woman, but was in fact later revealed to be a transexual man, how would we feel about it?? Would we think a crime have been committed?...

"we"? Ok sure I'm game Oh god, mph is going to get his knickers in a twist again. If my whatsapp chats are anything to go by, it would be put down to experience, regaled to the group in excruciating detail and form the basis for at least 20 years of pi55 taking.

[PurpleMoonlight]

I can understand how the victim felt deceived and violated, albeit she was somewhat naïve, and a prosecution was correct. But the sentence seems excessive to me though considering there was no force or violence used whatsoever.

[vonuber]

As my other half pointed out you can violently rape someone and get a much lesser sentence. This seems overly harsh, I hope it is appealed.

[anonymous-user]

vonuber said:

As my other half pointed out you can violently rape someone and get a much lesser sentence. This seems overly harsh, I hope it is appealed.

A much lesser sentence? The starting point for a violent rape is 10 years (with 'A' culpability).

[irocfan]

I'm just waiting for a counter-claim against the (naive) victim of homophobia on the basis that "... she said she loved me, we even had sex but when she found out I was a woman she shattered my feelings..."

[anonymous-user]

Conviction quashed and there's to be a re-trial: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-37...

It must be a rather stressful affair. Investigation, prosecution, trial, conviction, prison, appeal, release on bail, now waiting for another trial.

[PurpleTurtle]

Blimey!

One thing that strikes me from this Daily Wail article is that she always looked feminine (in a sensibly-dressed way) in every previous 'at court' shot, but the Police arrest mugshot (released for the first time now, as far as I'm aware) with bad hair and spots show how she could be mistaken for a fella. With the right lighting, and a tailwind etc etc

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3834475/Wo...

[HTP99]

PurpleTurtle said:

Blimey!

One thing that strikes me from this Daily Wail article is that she always looked feminine (in a sensibly-dressed way) in every previous 'at court' shot, but the Police arrest mugshot (released for the first time now, as far as I'm aware) with bad hair and spots show how she could be mistaken for a fella. With the right lighting, and a tailwind etc etc

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3834475/Wo...

Looks very much like a guy who worked for us; hair included, he was a tad odd and very troubled, maybe they are the same person!!

[Zod]

OK, she has a nasty acne outbreak, but nobody looks good in a mugshot.

[Pesty]

Nobody?